Survival of the fittest vs. the Nanny State

Darwinism cant do its thing if the state protects the idiots from themselves too much.

Ever seen the film "Idiocracy"? a frighteningly accurate, terrifying future, where smart people "die out" and massive family's of poorly educated individuals rule the world (very badly)

How long before you have to sign a waver at the tool store before you buy a hammer, or have to peel off a "do not smash yourself in the face with this" sticker on it...... or even worse, you have to have a qualification in hammering to buy or use one - making it illegal to use a hammer without! heading that way

reply to post by MrBigDave

I think its funny that the same people who are preaching evolution are trying to prevent everyone from dying. Its totally opposite of survival of the fittest. Look, its a fact of life.....people die!

Agreed!


What people fail to realize, is that because the government portrays these stupid tyrannical laws on us, is the fact that the government also ALLOWS so many Corporations to sell us products that do EXACTLY the same thing to us on a larger scale!

Anyone who believes that the government actually cares about our health is living in a fantasy world! It has nothing to do with them caring whether or not we are healthy, but a guage they use to see how much WE THE PEOPLE will tolerate!

As far as I am concerned, it is OKAY and ACCEPTABLE for the government to slowly kill us off, but God forbid we CHOOSE to commit a crime agains ourselves!

Look thru the mirror for once in your life and see that the laws we are being forced to live by, have nothing to do with our health, but an evil agenda to make as much money off of us slaves as they can squeeze out of us.....

My daughter has this funny theory that things are given to us to consume and live with that dumb us down... and it requires more govt intervention so we dont choke to death on our own spit. Win win for those who want control.

Me?? I think that there has always been a segment that cant tell hot coffee is hot or its a bad idea to put a plastic bag over your head or its probably a really BAD idea to put a lightbulb up your butt, eat paint chips, drink lighter fluid, etc. Theyre just more plentiful now. If they removed all warnings and nanny legislation.. the Govt probably cut the population in half before long.

"Survival of the fittest", as the OP discusses, really doesn't apply to the human species at all. That is not how we got on top of the food chain. We got here with a few gifts of nature and a whole lot of what makes us human. Things like cooperation, shared goals, shared concerns, and mutual caring. That sounds a bit hippy-ish, I'm aware, but it is fact. Our ancestors managed to overcome because the many could act as one. If they would have held these socially Darwinistic views and principles? We'd likely have gone extinct.

A group of people working together can bring down a mammoth. That mammoth then feeds the entire clan, village, tribe - whatever you wish to call it. Sure, the hunters can be something like rock stars and get a bigger cut and more benefits. But they wouldn't have been able to do that if they'd have told the rest of the village to screw off when it came time for the barbecue.

Modern man, quickly forgets his roots it seems and devolves into a "me, me, me" mindset.

Likewise lumping together every single law under the umbrella of "nanny state" is misleading IMO. Do I think it's ignorant to tell adults that they can't drink soda? Of course I do. But do I think it's ignorant that society says everybody has to chip in a bit to help keep the severely impoverished and disabled alive? Well, that goes back to the mammoth barbecue, doesn't it? We've become a society so obsessed with stuff that we've forgotten the value that people bring to the table. Things matter now, people are disposable. Why? Because the sad truth is that we've mostly all become shallow enough to love things more than we do one another.

It does a great disservice to the subject to discuss it in absolutes. Not only does it polarize people to both extremes of expression - but it fails to take into account all of the variables. I've watched so many people on ATS scream about laws and about taxes - yet I've never seen a single person post a copy of the letter they sent to Social Security saying "I REFUSE to accept benefits when my time comes!!! Don't you DARE send me a check!!!" - nor do I see any of the far left hippy types totally opting out and refusing to participate in capitalism. I suppose pachouli isn't cheap.

No matter how one cuts it. The only viable answer that doesn't end with us all dead is a middle approach. I don't want to live in a shiny happy world where nobody has a chance to shine and everyone is generic for the sake of political correctness. Neither do I wish to live in some distorted Logans Run world where turning sixty or seventy means either suicide or waiting for some "fittest" youngling to come along and cut your throat for what you've got - all while spewing distorted diatribes about what's right.

~Heff

Originally posted by Hefficide



Modern man, quickly forgets his roots it seems and devolves into a "me, me, me" mindset.

Likewise lumping together every single law under the umbrella of "nanny state" is misleading IMO. Do I think it's ignorant to tell adults that they can't drink soda? Of course I do. But do I think it's ignorant that society says everybody has to chip in a bit to help keep the severely impoverished and disabled alive? Well, that goes back to the mammoth barbecue, doesn't it? We've become a society so obsessed with stuff that we've forgotten the value that people bring to the table. Things matter now, people are disposable. Why? Because the sad truth is that we've mostly all become shallow enough to love things more than we do one another.



~Heff

Youre so right with the above! There should be a blend of being responsible for your own stupidity and we that are "more fit", caring for and guiding our "less fit". We have it SO lopsided now... we need legislation and nannying for many becuase we have turned our back on our fellows. I can preach some tribalism here... but I will refrain.

reply to post by AshleyD


That's awesome!

reply to post by MessOnTheFED!

I was talkign about the fact that when you dont like something someone is saying you call them stupid.

Yeah I didn't do that. It had nothing to do with me not liking what he said. I stated a fact, the OP is wrong. Survival of the fittest doesn't accurately describe natural selection or the theory of evolution.

reply to post by MrBigDave


Survival of the fittest doesn't affect humans much anymore. Occasionally a stupid person will
remove themselves from the gene pool by doing something stupid but that happens with smart
people as well.

As far as the nanny state goes the most ridiculous law passed so far is the NY 'big soda" ban.

And the reason we have these laws? ...people won't mind their own business (period).

Too many self-appointed nannies think they have this life figured out...not only for themselves
but for you as well...and feel compelled to not only tell you how, but legislate it as well.

Want an example?... Bring up seatbelt laws and talk about your views on them in a room full (or forum
full of people) and see how quickly you get shouted down by the sheeple who think they are a good
idea.

People, excuse me...sheeple don't understand the incrementalism of legislation. One day it is seatbelts,
then next day it is large sodas, and then someday in the future we will live in a society where in-home
inspections are performed to ensure you are complying with the "non slip surfaces act" the
"safety scissors" mandate, and the "marital aid sterilization" initiative.

Bottom line, we are a nation (and a world) too involved with looking over into someone else's
backyard and worrying about their business, instead of concentrating on our own backyard
and worrying about OUR OWN business...

The day I get a seatbelt ticket from a cop riding a motorcycle I think is the day I will finally give in
and either go home and drink a glass of hemlock or go see a psychiatrist and let him prescribe
for me a nice psychotropic concoction of Prozac, Wellbutrin and Zoloft, and just finish out this ride
called life completely numb to this nonsense...

If liberals are so educated- then why dont they know that our rights are not to be infringed upon?

Why do they constantly use emotion to further their agenda?

Why do they always result to labeling people when they cant come up with a reasonable arguement?

...maybe because they are taught by other liberals who think they are better than the rest of the population.

reply to post by Hefficide


Heff...how did you get so smart...eh? I vote you as one of the new top breeders, insuring our race has a chance for the future. Your genetic material needs to be spread around Bubba.....

JMOHO....

ETA: No, I'm not volunteering...my breeding days are over.

Des

reply to post by Hefficide


I can agree with that.

But this country has become so polarized that it's willing to cut off it's nose to spite it's face.
Because of corruption and political pandering I just don't see any kind of balance being achieved any time soon.

Originally posted by Advantage

Originally posted by Hefficide



Modern man, quickly forgets his roots it seems and devolves into a "me, me, me" mindset.

Likewise lumping together every single law under the umbrella of "nanny state" is misleading IMO. Do I think it's ignorant to tell adults that they can't drink soda? Of course I do. But do I think it's ignorant that society says everybody has to chip in a bit to help keep the severely impoverished and disabled alive? Well, that goes back to the mammoth barbecue, doesn't it? We've become a society so obsessed with stuff that we've forgotten the value that people bring to the table. Things matter now, people are disposable. Why? Because the sad truth is that we've mostly all become shallow enough to love things more than we do one another.



~Heff

Youre so right with the above! There should be a blend of being responsible for your own stupidity and we that are "more fit", caring for and guiding our "less fit". We have it SO lopsided now... we need legislation and nannying for many becuase we have turned our back on our fellows. I can preach some tribalism here... but I will refrain.

I'll agree that we should help others help themselves, but the tribe would only carry the sick and lame for so long before they would prop them against a tree and leave them to die.

In the bible, farmers were commanded to plant a square field and then reap a round one, leaving the corners for the poor and destitute. They had to harvest it for themselves if they wanted to eat. We are giving out way to many hand outs in this country.

Originally posted by WaterBottle
reply to post by MessOnTheFED!

 

I was talkign about the fact that when you dont like something someone is saying you call them stupid.

Yeah I didn't do that. It had nothing to do with me not liking what he said. I stated a fact, the OP is wrong. Survival of the fittest doesn't accurately describe natural selection or the theory of evolution.

edit on 12-3-2013 by WaterBottle because: (no reason given)

edit on 12-3-2013 by WaterBottle because: (no reason given)

Ok, I get it, I was wrong to equate Survival of the Fittest with evolution. That wasn't my point anyway, so it was irrelevant to bring it up and make a big deal about it.

Originally posted by MrBigDave

Originally posted by Advantage

Originally posted by Hefficide



Modern man, quickly forgets his roots it seems and devolves into a "me, me, me" mindset.

Likewise lumping together every single law under the umbrella of "nanny state" is misleading IMO. Do I think it's ignorant to tell adults that they can't drink soda? Of course I do. But do I think it's ignorant that society says everybody has to chip in a bit to help keep the severely impoverished and disabled alive? Well, that goes back to the mammoth barbecue, doesn't it? We've become a society so obsessed with stuff that we've forgotten the value that people bring to the table. Things matter now, people are disposable. Why? Because the sad truth is that we've mostly all become shallow enough to love things more than we do one another.



~Heff

Youre so right with the above! There should be a blend of being responsible for your own stupidity and we that are "more fit", caring for and guiding our "less fit". We have it SO lopsided now... we need legislation and nannying for many becuase we have turned our back on our fellows. I can preach some tribalism here... but I will refrain.

I'll agree that we should help others help themselves, but the tribe would only carry the sick and lame for so long before they would prop them against a tree and leave them to die.

In the bible, farmers were commanded to plant a square field and then reap a round one, leaving the corners for the poor and destitute. They had to harvest it for themselves if they wanted to eat. We are giving out way to many hand outs in this country.

Certainly not all tribes, but you get my meaning Help those who help themselves and care for the disabled... drop the able but by choice dead weight. One of the main problmes in our society is that being on welfare or etc is not something that is "bad"... there is no reason to strive for actually being a contributing member. Its partially our ( contributing) problem... our societal and cultural norms are pretty screwed up now. I also dont see this getting any better or anything changing without a huge and painful upheaval.

reply to post by Common Good

If liberals are so educated- then why dont they know that our rights are not to be infringed upon?

Well if they consider themselves actual liberals they aren't that educated, as they still subscribe to the pseudo left-right capitalist argument.

But clearly liberals do care about rights or they wouldn't debate the legality of abortion, racist discrimination, gay marriage, torture, death penalty, growing incarceration rates, drug decriminalization, and separation of religion + state, etc..

Why do they always result to labeling people when they cant come up with a reasonable arguement?

I don't know. Perhaps pay attention to how much the word "libtard" is used on ATS alone.

...maybe because they are taught by other liberals who think they are better than the rest of the population.

Like the social darwinists preaching in this thread? Maybe we should just tie up all liberals to a tree and leave them to die.

Originally posted by Advantage
My daughter has this funny theory that things are given to us to consume and live with that dumb us down... and it requires more govt intervention so we dont choke to death on our own spit.

Monsanto GMO seeds.


Current thread on Latin American countries fighting against use of GMO
www.abovetopsecret.com...

2011: Supreme Court decision to ban planting of such seeds pending environmental impact studies by the USDA, the Obama Administration/USDA deregulated two GMO varieties.

2012: riders are attached to legislation that require the Secretary of Agri to 'immediately' grant temporary approval or deregulation of GMO crops even if the crops safety is in question or under legal review.

And then...

Bacillus thuringiensis (Bt) is a natural insecticide that produces a toxin called Cry1Ab protein. This protein is produced by some corn crops that have undergone genetic modification to produce GMO products. A new lab study has shown that the Cry1Ab toxin causes cell death in human embryonic kidney cells, and that combining Cry1Ab and Cry1Ac toxins with the effects of the pesticide Roundup, could delay apoptosis, which could promote cancer. Some corn crops are made resistant to pesticides such as glyphosate, the active ingredient in Roundup, by genetic modification, and this study also showed that this pesticide on its own causes necrosis (tissue destruction) in doses lower than those used in agriculture. The study was conducted by Gilles-Eric Séralini of the University of Caen, France, and colleagues and published in the Journal of Applied Toxicology.

digitaljournal.com...

In essence, your daughter is closer to the truth than most people want to think about. All the information is out there, people just close their minds to the probability that the government is actually in favor of how awful this food actually is for us.

- Fim

Originally posted by MrBigDave
I think its funny that the same people who are preaching evolution are trying to prevent everyone from dying.

You totally lost me right here.

If anything the people who are 'preaching evolution' want the opposite, they want choice...

it's the god people who want to prevent all the deaths for it is a 'sin'...

also..."preventing people from dying", like pharma and scientific breakthroughs which help keep our grandparents around a little longer? can thank the nanny state for that..

Originally posted by AshleyD
reply to post by MrBigDave

 

Survival of the fittest would allow stupid people to make as many stupid decisions as they want, if it kills them then that is one less stupid person in the world.

That line reminded me of the following: lol

 

And I'm not really sure but I have thought about it. Yeah, it probably goes directly against 'survival of the fittest' system. But I suppose a couple factors come in to play that supersedes it. I do believe they naturally oppose each other, to answer your question.

You certainly deserve a star for that one bud! I like that post!

Yes I do believe that self sufficiency and the nanny state stuff are mutually exclusive.

The problem is that the people who create and enforce policy can put us all in the position of being UNABLE to take care of "it" our self. Consider at bare bones the idea that we could completely rebuild a car like we could 30 or more years ago has parts to it that make it impossible without consulting "expertise". That's evil.

Yes the dimmy dum dums DO deserve the opportunity to eliminate themselves.

I use a seat belt mostly because I am now used to it, and also because it isn't really a bad idea to use one. But I DO object to some dummy making it mandatory for me because of his fantasies about it.
The same goes for motorcycle helmet laws.

You have to remember that these people are really at root mere control freaks. I respect NO control freaks. The reason for that is that through watching them I have noticed that the most important thing that they ought to have under control: THEM SELVES...they are totally incapable of. I personally think that these sorts need psychologists, not power bases.

And... it is never ethical that any person or group imagine what they want for other people to do and then implement it. Once again I will state that these people create theories based on their fantasies and so all they are doing is pushing their fantasies off on you.

Just because many people who don't wear seat belts actually die in accidents does not mean that EVERYBODY will so there is no logically consistent base from which to make that judgement.

The same with the darn gun thing. Just because one flip out did what he did doesn't mean anyone else will do it to the extent that they pretend. There may well be some copy cats, but not every day, all day long, done by everybody, but lets punish everyone who didn't do anything and never would anyway.

There is always some histrionics and drama queen stuff caught up in ALL of it.

That, in and of itself, is not very edifying for mankind in general, and implies a very bad prognosis for actual positive development for any society.

You know tonight isn't a very good night for me. So I will bluntly tell you how it is. The US is set up so that the morons procreate like rabbits while the intelligent ones support them. Meanwhile the intelligent folks can't afford to have many children because of this. Thus when the government is all done, all you end up with are a bunch of imbeciles. Yeah, lets further the welfare state and trash the US... Whoop whoop!

Your OP is so extreme in emotion and opinion, it just stirs the same level of volume in opposition, in the reader (as expected).

My first reaction is to roll my eyes and want to yell back-

"... this happens when the members of a society show themselves to be unable to make choices for

themselves that are beneficial to their survival and development!

It becomes a concern for the whole because if everyone degenerates into mental and physical illness and

weakness than the society as a whole disintegrates.

The whole is MADE of individuals. So if the individuals rot and die, so does the whole nation."

...... and watch the movie "Idiocracy"... at least the first five minutes of it. That explains a lot. An interesting documentary.


- without the inflammatory OP to react to, if this was brought up in a different way, I would instead say-

The United States, because of it's extreme individualization values, is lacking in cultural integrity- that is, there is a lack of cultural morals ethics, and tradition which unites and solidifies the society.

One result of this is that "peer pressure" is without power, and the "unofficial" forms of motivation for one to take care of themselves, and not fall into self destructive behaviors and addictions is missing.

In some other cultures, "what others think" is a motivation which aids individuals to put effort into self discipline.
Those thigns do not need to made into official laws.

Because we lack this "positive" form of peer pressure respect, all pressure needs to be done through official or legal channels instead. You will slowly fall into being a society which has to make laws for everything, because the people only pay attention if it is a law (and your police need to be more and more aggressive, of course).

Look at a Yin Yang symbol and you can see the pattern easily recognized everywhere in life- follow it around as it gets to the biggest extreme of one side, this causes it to tip into the other. Go further and further into extreme individual freedom and you'll end up in it's other extreme. Just the way of things.