Reconciliation, an accomplished fact

reply to post by Lazarus Short

No part of the Holy Bible is suspect, except in the minds of some.

Depends on who the pool is that you are segregating your hypothetical "some" from. People in general? then, yes. If it is from biblical scholars, then, no.

As for my theory of progressive bestowings of the Spirit, I am working on that currently, and will post it here in due time.

Thanks for mentioning it is a theory. I think everyone should have theories or make up their own religions, as long as they add that as a disclaimer.

Are you really serious that Glorification involves only the body? Full indwelling now?? Where did that come from? Only Jesus Himself ever had the full indwelling in this life!

Read these two books by Troels Engberg-Pedersen: Paul and the Stoics, and Cosmology and Self in the Apostle Paul: The Material Spirit, then let me know where you think he is wrong.

C'mon, dude, you KNOW that! In this life we imperfect CANNOT become perfect - only when glorified after death.

The Greek word translated into "perfect" in the English Bible means to reach one's goal, so in a way, what you say is right. Read those two books and then you will understand properly that term.

Even the best of Christians have a LONG way to go to reach Perfection. Only God can do it for them.

No one is saying that we can do it on our own, we can't.

Perfection is lack of desire. That's why perfection seems so hard to achieve, because we can't seem to discipline our desires. Martial artists can do it. Buddhist monks can do it. So like I said, I don't think it's a matter of being imperfect. I think it's a matter of will - are we willing to work for divinity? Are we willing to establish that kind of independence, to walk that dark and rocky path?

Most people say no, so they are forced to supplicate themselves to a deity. But some say yes, and it is these people who find true freedom, the freedom of being their own master and miracle. That's what I want for this entire world...the ability to stand up and say, "I can do it myself. I don't need to be a servant, I can be the master." And that's when we'll step up and take care of all of our problems.

All by ourselves. No god needed.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Most people say no, so they are forced to supplicate themselves to a deity.

"Forced" only by their own rationalization.
You have to do things and it takes will, meaning a sort of ambition, a 'willingness' to struggle and against your own natural inclination.
Its natural to want to do things that benefit yourself.
It is not always too 'natural' to do things beyond the ordinary that don't in any way benefit you, at least benefits you will see in this life.
That is where God comes in, someone who can see the implications of what you do, better than you can, and is above the 'natural' desires that we are bogged down with as long as we live in these mortal bodies.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by mplsfitter539

 

. . . what happens if we do not become spiritually mature in this lifetime?

We do not have a part in the resurrection.
Do you want to know what I think then happens, or are you are more concerned with how you do gain those good things?
I think it starts with recognizing that not only is it possible, but that it is a requirement.
Not accepting excuses, no matter how rational they may sound, about how you can't, and that there is some other provision as a plan B for the 'inevitable' failure.

Wow this last post is so full of double talk all I can say is.....what? Please rephrase this post so that it can be understood. And no I don't want to know what you think about what happens because you have already proven that your thinking is flawed. We will all be resurrected some to life and others to judgement but we all get resurrected. Stop offering your opinions in place of solid provable responses. Your double talk is killing me.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

No part of the Holy Bible is suspect, except in the minds of some.

Depends on who the pool is that you are segregating your hypothetical "some" from. People in general? then, yes. If it is from biblical scholars, then, no.

As for my theory of progressive bestowings of the Spirit, I am working on that currently, and will post it here in due time.

Thanks for mentioning it is a theory. I think everyone should have theories or make up their own religions, as long as they add that as a disclaimer.

Are you really serious that Glorification involves only the body? Full indwelling now?? Where did that come from? Only Jesus Himself ever had the full indwelling in this life!

Read these two books by Troels Engberg-Pedersen: Paul and the Stoics, and Cosmology and Self in the Apostle Paul: The Material Spirit, then let me know where you think he is wrong.

C'mon, dude, you KNOW that! In this life we imperfect CANNOT become perfect - only when glorified after death.

The Greek word translated into "perfect" in the English Bible means to reach one's goal, so in a way, what you say is right. Read those two books and then you will understand properly that term.

Even the best of Christians have a LONG way to go to reach Perfection. Only God can do it for them.

No one is saying that we can do it on our own, we can't.

edit on 13-3-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Looks like I give common folks more credit than you do.

So you don't care for my theory? Well, God made Adam and gave him the breath of life (spirit). At Pentecost in the book of Acts, the followers of Jesus seem to have been given more, at least they must have gotten more than most folks had up to that point, at least enough to kick-start Christianity, do miracles, speak in tongues, etc.

As for the books you recommend, I have no use for books by such titles, written by scholars/academics who may or may not be real Christians. There are too many wolves in this world dressed as sheep, and a lot of them write books.

As for your comment, "No one is saying that we can do it on our own, we can't." I thought you had stated in a previous post that we had to get it right in this lifetime, or go to "that place." But are you saying that we can be saved in this lifetime, though not perfected? I believe that. Maybe you could go into more detail...

reply to post by mplsfitter539

Stop offering your opinions in place of solid provable responses. Your double talk is killing me.

What makes you think there is "provable" answers that I'm not giving? Could you be thinking of the brainwashing propaganda your cult teaches you, that you unquestioningly accept as 'truth,' where only someone else's thoughts need to be 'proven'?
If what I'm saying is wrong, then where is your 'provable' "correct" answers that refute my claims?

We will all be resurrected some to life and others to judgement but we all get resurrected.

No, and you cannot 'prove' that.
There is an obligatory call to judgement but only those vindicated will stand in the flesh for it (see Job). Anything short of that, by definition, is not a resurrection.

reply to post by Lazarus Short

I have no use for books by such titles, written by scholars/academics who may or may not be real Christians.

That is one huge mistake.
No one is telling you that you have to believe in everything you read, but you should read the scholars and academics.
Do you think non-scholars and non-academics are better? That would be a mistake also, thinking people who don't have to pass some sort of review or criticism are somehow better than people who do.
Your definition of "real Christian" may stop you from ever finding the truth if that definition is based on whether that person agrees with exactly what your cult taught you and what you already believe.

There are too many wolves in this world dressed as sheep, and a lot of them write books.

Right, and those are being published by companies with agendas, not by the academic press.

As for your comment, "No one is saying that we can do it on our own, we can't." I thought you had stated in a previous post that we had to get it right in this lifetime, or go to "that place." But are you saying that we can be saved in this lifetime, though not perfected? I believe that. Maybe you could go into more detail...

If I didn't say "that place", then you shouldn't put full quotes around it as if I did.
We are all hypothetically 'saved', whether we carry through with our salvation is another thing.
Paul talks about Faith, and he uses it as a term other than just a belief. Belief is part of Grace, that we are gifted with (among other things) that gives us the opportunity to enter into Christ. "Christ is the replacement to its old counterpart, Israel. Faith is the replacement for its old counterpart, The Law.
We are all baptized, like the Israelites who crossed the Red Sea, but many fall like the Israelites in the wilderness.
We are being perfected in this lifetime. That perfecting is the work of the spirit that God gives us that replaces the natural spirit that we were born with, the one that is based in a corruption caused by sin, that leads to death.
The spirit from God, that comes to us through Jesus, leads to life.

So you don't care for my theory?

I don't think I said, one way or the other. What I was objecting to earlier was your not qualifying your introduction of it as a theory, making it sound like you were stating it as fact as if you pulled it straight out of the Bible.

Well, God made Adam and gave him the breath of life (spirit).

Obviously we don't naturally have that same spirit that Adam had originally before the fall.

At Pentecost in the book of Acts, the followers of Jesus seem to have been given more, at least they must have gotten more than most folks had up to that point, at least enough to kick-start Christianity, do miracles, speak in tongues, etc.

Right, a sort of spirit of prophecy. Notice in Jesus' story of the person at the "Last Day" who says "did we not prophesy in your name?". (Matthew 7:22) It's not the same spirit that 'saves' us.

reply to post by jmdewey60

"Forced" only by their own rationalization.
You have to do things and it takes will, meaning a sort of ambition, a 'willingness' to struggle and against your own natural inclination.
Its natural to want to do things that benefit yourself.
It is not always too 'natural' to do things beyond the ordinary that don't in any way benefit you, at least benefits you will see in this life.
That is where God comes in, someone who can see the implications of what you do, better than you can, and is above the 'natural' desires that we are bogged down with as long as we live in these mortal bodies.

Where "God" comes in, you are taught to scorn your flaws and supplicate yourself to an external power for forgiveness. Forgiveness for being human. I don't believe in selling your soul because you're not perfect. The greatest struggles come from wanting to be perfect, because what you think is perfect is actually just...well, not human. Our struggle to be perfect is our struggle to not be human. For some strange reason, it seems that being human disappoints us. And that attitude is reflect in the deity we crafted to give ourselves direction.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

. . . you are taught . . .

OK, get over it.
Clear away the anger from your mind and fix whatever discrepancy there is between what you were told, and the truth.
You are not required to believe what you were taught, by people who may have been doing the best they could, with what they themselves were taught, that most likely is tainted by all the dark goings-on of the Middle Ages.
I don't know, maybe I have some sort of advantage from being a fanatic for studying history from a very early age, and I keep up that interest continually, and that includes church history and the history of the changing thoughts in Christianity, where you can balance things out between what was believed early on, and what we are now discovering about those things, against what was in the middle, which was a lot of ignorance with things just made up to fill in the gaps where they just didn't know.
I've mentioned a few books recently in my posts, and on my profile page I have a list of every book I have bought in the last four years. Read a couple.

reply to post by jmdewey60

OK, get over it.
Clear away the anger from your mind and fix whatever discrepancy there is between what you were told, and the truth.
You are not required to believe what you were taught, by people who may have been doing the best they could, with what they themselves were taught, that most likely is tainted by all the dark goings-on of the Middle Ages.

Regardless of what I "clear away", it still remains in the minds of many, many others. That's what disturbs me.

I don't know, maybe I have some sort of advantage from being a fanatic for studying history from a very early age, and I keep up that interest continually, and that includes church history and the history of the changing thoughts in Christianity, where you can balance things out between what was believed early on, and what we are now discovering about those things, against what was in the middle, which was a lot of ignorance with things just made up to fill in the gaps where they just didn't know.

You really think that's a standard course of education for the average Judaic?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

That's what disturbs me.

Be 'disturbed', you don't think I am?
I'm not telling you to stop, just refine the rhetoric a bit, and don't be angry, which is negative and ultimately counterproductive.

You really think that's a standard course of education for the average Judaic?

What is?

reply to post by jmdewey60

Be 'disturbed', you don't think I am?
I'm not telling you to stop, just refine the rhetoric a bit, and don't be angry, which is negative and ultimately counterproductive.

Which bit of rhetoric are you talking about?

What is?

The cultural background of "Judaic" practices.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by mplsfitter539

 

Stop offering your opinions in place of solid provable responses. Your double talk is killing me.

What makes you think there is "provable" answers that I'm not giving? Could you be thinking of the brainwashing propaganda your cult teaches you, that you unquestioningly accept as 'truth,' where only someone else's thoughts need to be 'proven'?
If what I'm saying is wrong, then where is your 'provable' "correct" answers that refute my claims?

We will all be resurrected some to life and others to judgement but we all get resurrected.

No, and you cannot 'prove' that.
There is an obligatory call to judgement but only those vindicated will stand in the flesh for it (see Job). Anything short of that, by definition, is not a resurrection.

edit on 14-3-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

"11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and the grave delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and the grave were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

These verses occur after the 1000 years of the Kingdom of God on earth have finished.

This is proof that all are resurrected some to life others to judgement. Now in verse 15 it says that if your name is not found in the book of life you are cast into the lake of basanos (fire). Basonos is the word that was translated to fire. Basanos means touchstone (testing). So to sum this up no one goes to a fake place called hell were the flames burn them for ever and ever. What it does say in the original text is that everyone is judged according to their works. I imagine this part determines how much testing the individual will be subjected to and the duration.

By the way what is the name of your cult? You seem to think everyone else is in some kind of cult. Is that everyone accept you? hahahaha that is laughable.

reply to post by mplsfitter539

This is proof that all are resurrected some to life others to judgement.

I don't see the word, resurrection, in the verses you quoted.
Remember, that was your earlier objection, my use of the word, resurrection.

You seem to think everyone else is in some kind of cult. Is that everyone accept you?

No, just people in cults.
If you are espousing doctrines only taught by the cults, then I assume you are in a cult because normal Christians don't accept those things that people believe because they have a fascination with the person telling them to believe in them.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Which bit of rhetoric are you talking about?

None, I said your rhetoric a bit, not a bit of your rhetoric.
Or, all of it. What I meant was refinement as to the particulars that you bring up to criticize. There's plenty out there but you seem just a bit fuzzy and I think you could sharper that up by doing some book study rather than pulling stuff off web sites.

The cultural background of "Judaic" practices.

You seem to have your own terminology going here, where I think you are probably thinking of Christianity being included in there.
I'm talking about learning about all the aspects, including cultural amongst that.

reply to post by jmdewey60

I'm talking about learning about all the aspects, including cultural amongst that.

Most of them don't. Some don't even care.

"Although there are scientific reasons for accepting a young earth, I am a young age creationist because that is my understanding of the Scripture. As I shared with my professors years ago when I was in college, if all the evidence in the universe turns against creationism, I would be the first to admit it, but I would still be a creationist because that is what the Word of God seems to indicate." - Kurt Wise, Harvard Geologist

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I'm missing your point here.
What are you saying, that some people immerse themselves in the Bible in an uncritical way?
They do, so your job would be to point out how the stories in the Old Testament were put there to teach theological lessons, and not to be de rigueur in scientific circles.

reply to post by jmdewey60


It's beside the point anyway. Reconciliation is totally unnecessary. I may as well reconcile with my reflection for being so ugly.

reply to post by newnature

It's a wonderful gift one that I'd like to receive, and open.

It's funny watching people rebel against it but such is the willful pride of man (boy)..

This video is 12 short minutes long and it say it ALL. Everything is to the glory of Yahweh.

Praise Yahweh