Reconciliation, an accomplished fact

reply to post by sacgamer25

The technology exists to end world hunger, build housing and infrastructure for people in third world countries to have basic living conditions, i.e. running water, sanitation, heat/AC. The reason all people don't have these luxuries? Because poor people don't have any resources and even if they did exist rich people would simply go in and steal them. They don't have because they don't have money. I wonder if the 1.7 trillion dollar bailout could have fixed this? I'm pretty sure that would be enough to give it a good start.

Religion has been preaching love for over five thousand years, and yet, the conditions you speak of are just as bad today as it was in biblical times (if not worse). Love can't fix it.

I have always wanted to start a bank account where people could donate money into it. Half of the interest would go to fixing all the woes of the world. The other half of the interest would remain in the account to generate even more interest, and so and so on. Within a matter of a few decades of donations and interest there'd be enough money every month to feed, clothe and provide medical care for all that need it. I don't think of this out of love, but out of a sense of responsibility to my fellow man. I don't have to love them to understand that we all need to eat.

reply to post by sacgamer25

The next war will be Nuclear, Chemical, Biological. If you are right this war is inevitable because people cannot overcome themselves in pursuit of love.

Know the truth. Please name us one weapon invented (just ONE) that was never used? Since the beginning of recorded human history, give us the date of ONE century that went by without war in the world? Remember, over five thousand years of religion spreading the message of love, and it has done NOTHING. We are humans. We are animals. Nothing more - nothing less. And, we will always do what our nature compels us to do.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

dirt --> [God makes it into] --> a body

body --> [God gives it a bit of His Spirit/Breath] --> a soul

soul --> [God gives it more Spirit (the Earnest)] --> a justified soul

justified soul --> [God gives it the full Spirit after death & resurrection] --> a Glorified Soul

1glo·ry
noun ˈglȯr-ē
plural glories
Definition of GLORY
1
a : praise, honor, or distinction extended by common consent : renown

There's more than one way to achieve spiritual glory.

"There are hundreds of paths up the mountain, all leading in the same direction, so it doesn't matter which path you take. The only one wasting time is the one who runs around and around the mountain,
telling everyone else that their path is wrong." - Hindu proverb

I say that all the power in the universe shouldn't rest on the shoulders of a single ruler, especially one that behaves so human and places itself above all other things. No king separates himself from his people so completely. The only logical reason is that his presence would bring our destruction. Has anyone ever thought of that? So maybe we're supposed to evolve. Maybe we're supposed to become godly, so we can finally touch the beginning of everything, so we can finally overcome division.

edit on 10-3-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Yes, God separates Himself from us, for He cannot bear sin, as He kept back from Sodom, visiting Abraham, while the two angels went on down to rescue Lot. He also separates Himself from us because His presence would destroy us, since He dwells in inapproachable light. You must not have thought through step three of my post, in which god breathes on us the last time, bestowing the full indwelling of His Spirit, and enabling us to stand in the very presence of the Godhead.

reply to post by Lazarus Short

He kept back from Sodom, visiting Abraham, while the two angels went on down to rescue Lot.

I don't recommend judging God according to Genesis. That is god according to people who found their self-esteem in being down the hereditary chain of the "chosen" lineage of Abraham (opposed to the other 'nations' descended from offspring, at various stages, not 'chosen' while the sibling was).
There would have been a legendary city that, according to the story, was destroyed by some cataclysm that of course would have been seen as a 'visitation' from god, for a reason that has to be deserved, such as practicing abominations considered socially acceptable in that city.
Since god had to have seen it first hand (according to how legends were formulated) then it would be "proof" that god was there, around that time, whenever they wanted to insert that into their national myth's timeline.
That is an opportunity that can not be left un-taken advantage of by the storytellers, for an encounter between their legendary great ancestor, and their national god.

reply to post by Lazarus Short

Yes, God separates Himself from us, for He cannot bear sin

Then he obviously isn't all-powerful, is he?

He also separates Himself from us because His presence would destroy us, since He dwells in inapproachable light.

A perfect being who failed to create a perfect race of servants. Again, doesn't sound like the work of an all-powerful ruler to me.

You must not have thought through step three of my post, in which god breathes on us the last time, bestowing the full indwelling of His Spirit, and enabling us to stand in the very presence of the Godhead.

For someone so powerful, he sure does like to make it difficult for himself. And at our expense, no less. He stands to lose nothing. Absolutely nothing. We stand to lose everything. Absolutely everything. Tell me, who has the short end of the stick here? We wait on his convenience, while his plans continue to destroy the world. We wait on his infinite wisdom, while war and plague and famine and poverty continue to assault this world. He is master of the entire universe, but has withdrawn from the one place that is susceptible to his most terrible creation.

Tell me, why does he deserve anything from me? He is the equivalent of four Hitlers. If he were to manifest in corporeal form, here on Earth, he would be charged with enough crimes to fill a Harry Potter book. For someone who cannot stand the presence of sin, he seems pretty comfortable with himself. That's not my idea of a worthy king. And as far as I'm concerned, he's the one who should be doing the reconciling. He has a lot to atone for.

reply to post by Lazarus Short

. . . since He dwells in inapproachable light.

The verse that says that is ! Timothy 6:16,

He alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen.

That is probably an explanation of the Gospel of John's quote from Jesus that no man has seen The Father.
John would have been written and circulated and reached the whereabouts of Paul some time after his death or otherwise disappearance from history.
The point being that for this and other reasons, biblical scholars very much doubt that the 'Timothy' letters were actually written by Paul.
What I would draw in practical terms from this situation is the inadvisability of creating a doctrine based solely on suspect writings that for one reason or another made it into Athanasius' New Testament canon.

. . . god breathes on us the last time, bestowing the full indwelling of His Spirit, and enabling us to stand in the very presence of the Godhead.

Maybe you should qualify your statement by saying something like, "according to my theory that I just made up out of nothing but my own imagination", otherwise someone may mistakenly think that you got this from the Bible or something.
We can have the "full indwelling" of the spirit now. Paul never talks about a partial indwelling.
The 'last' thing is purely physical, having to do with the body, and not spiritual.
We need to become spiritually mature in this lifetime.

reply to post by jmdewey60

He alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen.

Our recourse is clear. We must evolve. To hell with reconciliation, I would rather show him that he succeeded in cultivating another of himself. Surely he must be lonely, being the only god and all.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

. . . he must be lonely . . .

Look at my post again and notice that I am not supporting the position held and articulated by Mr. Lazarus.
I don't think God is lonely.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Yeah? How would you describe being at the top of a gigantic mountain with only your sycophantic servants to keep you company?

You don't have to be alone to feel lonely. All it takes is division.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

.
We need to become spiritually mature in this lifetime.

edit on 11-3-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

You said "We can have the "full indwelling" of the spirit now. Paul never talks about a partial indwelling.
The 'last' thing is purely physical, having to do with the body, and not spiritual.
We need to become spiritually mature in this lifetime."

My question is what happens if we do not become spiritually mature in this lifetime?

edit on 12-3-2013 by mplsfitter539 because: (no reason given)

reply to post by jmdewey60


You're not Christian, are you?

reply to post by mplsfitter539

. . . what happens if we do not become spiritually mature in this lifetime?

We do not have a part in the resurrection.
Do you want to know what I think then happens, or are you are more concerned with how you do gain those good things?
I think it starts with recognizing that not only is it possible, but that it is a requirement.
Not accepting excuses, no matter how rational they may sound, about how you can't, and that there is some other provision as a plan B for the 'inevitable' failure.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

You're not Christian, are you?

I am, but I also believe that 'knowing God' does not come from listening to some kind of lecture on what "the church" finds socially acceptable to believe about God.
True knowledge of God comes from personal experience with God.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Is the Bible not your spiritual authority? How would you describe "God", according to your beliefs? How would you describe his relationship with us? How does reconciliation fit into it?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Is the Bible not your spiritual authority?

Over any other written source, but with qualifications.

How would you describe "God", according to your beliefs?

Someone who is active helping us to avoid unpleasantries that the universe naturally has to offer.

How would you describe his relationship with us?

See above.

How does reconciliation fit into it?

There are certain requirements that allow those mentioned (briefly alluded to) occurrences to be avoided. There is a natural resistance in people who want to do it on their own, and distancing God from the process.

reply to post by jmdewey60


So you don't think there's anything godly within us that can be accessed without worship? That is to say, you don't believe we possess divine power in and of ourselves? Power that allows us to create our own salvation, as per independent action?

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

. . . since He dwells in inapproachable light.

The verse that says that is ! Timothy 6:16,

He alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen.

That is probably an explanation of the Gospel of John's quote from Jesus that no man has seen The Father.
John would have been written and circulated and reached the whereabouts of Paul some time after his death or otherwise disappearance from history.
The point being that for this and other reasons, biblical scholars very much doubt that the 'Timothy' letters were actually written by Paul.
What I would draw in practical terms from this situation is the inadvisability of creating a doctrine based solely on suspect writings that for one reason or another made it into Athanasius' New Testament canon.

. . . god breathes on us the last time, bestowing the full indwelling of His Spirit, and enabling us to stand in the very presence of the Godhead.

Maybe you should qualify your statement by saying something like, "according to my theory that I just made up out of nothing but my own imagination", otherwise someone may mistakenly think that you got this from the Bible or something.
We can have the "full indwelling" of the spirit now. Paul never talks about a partial indwelling.
The 'last' thing is purely physical, having to do with the body, and not spiritual.
We need to become spiritually mature in this lifetime.

edit on 11-3-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

You surprise me, sounding sometimes like a Biblical skeptic. No part of the Holy Bible is suspect, except in the minds of some. As for my theory of progressive bestowings of the Spirit, I am working on that currently, and will post it here in due time. Are you really serious that Glorification involves only the body? Full indwelling now?? Where did that come from? Only Jesus Himself ever had the full indwelling in this life! C'mon, dude, you KNOW that! In this life we imperfect CANNOT become perfect - only when glorified after death.

Even the best of Christians have a LONG way to go to reach Perfection. Only God can do it for them.

Originally posted by mplsfitter539

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

.
We need to become spiritually mature in this lifetime.

edit on 11-3-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

You said "We can have the "full indwelling" of the spirit now. Paul never talks about a partial indwelling.
The 'last' thing is purely physical, having to do with the body, and not spiritual.
We need to become spiritually mature in this lifetime."

My question is what happens if we do not become spiritually mature in this lifetime?

edit on 12-3-2013 by mplsfitter539 because: (no reason given)

Hey, good to see you here! Hang in there, fight the good fight!!

reply to post by AfterInfinity

So you don't think there's anything godly within us that can be accessed without worship? That is to say, you don't believe we possess divine power in and of ourselves? Power that allows us to create our own salvation, as per independent action?

It all depends on semantics, whether the answer is yes or no.
If you say God is divine, then we wouldn't call Him that unless we define the terms so that we are not divine.
If we call ourselves divine then the term becomes meaningless.
Worship means to recognize our dependence, so, no, to that part.

reply to post by jmdewey60

If we call ourselves divine then the term becomes meaningless.
Worship means to recognize our dependence, so, no, to that part.

So if everyone calls themselves "living", then the term becomes meaningless? That's a flawed statement. How would you define divinity? I mean as a general term, not as a Christian term.