Bewildering the Tramp: How modern legislation criminalizes poverty

Originally posted by Hopechest
reply to post by SallieSunshine

 

Nah, we look down on them because they are foolish and lazy.

With the exception of an illness that debilitates you or a horrific accident that prevents you from working, there is no reason to be poor other than bad decisions in your life.

Its not my job to give you pity for being an idiot.

I will add, children are excepted from this, and all efforts should be made to provide for them.

Have you ever tried getting a job when you have no phone number for potential employees to call, no address, no nice 'interview' clothing, no resume or recent references, and are so focused on just being able to eat or find a safe place to sleep that you can hardly think straight?

There is also such as strong stigma, that many employers will not hire someone they know is homeless. Plus, many homeless people have mental disabilities, or have just left abuse home situations, and really just need somewhere to help get better so that they can become productive members of society. Some homeless shelters now provide job training, psychological services, and help people get jobs and then apartments.

In a time where one person loses their mind because if forgot their smartphone at home.... and you expect a person with no Social ID, No Address, No Phone #, No money to for personal Hygiene, No decent interview cloths... to just get up and get a job? Oh don;t even go for disabilities, most are mentally abused, and some are physically torn.

heck, i was asked 2 ideas before i could get my own money from my freakin account at the bank. Now imagine me walking in with facial hair, ripped cloths, no Ideas, smell, look emancipated... yup jail here i come.

Source

reply to post by Hopechest


And you've never made a bad decision? Some decisions have a knock on effect for a long long time, and quite often by which time it can be too late and the consequences too severe to come back from.

In the UK you can't get a job without having a permanent address and proof of id and address. More often than not, due to the running down of council homes, you can't get a home unless you are working. Private landlords don't want to have benefit tenants anymore and if you were long term homeless then you don't stand a chance. A typical catch 22 situation.

Hedge fund operators and banks can pilfer millions from innocent people but they will never do as much time as a purse snatcher. A wealthy person who owns nursing homes routinely hires workers without running background checks. This may (and does everyday) result in a number of deaths due to unqualified workers, neglect and often horrific abuse of elders in their care. Will this negligent nursing home owner, ultimately responsible, do a day in jail? Not a one. Meanwhile, a poor person who steals a loaf of bread will more likely go to jail - if it is a repeated offense perhaps for a very long time.

You can apply this to all white collar crimes, recalled drugs, shoddy products, lead paint, asbestos, tainted meat, any products hazardous by neglect...et. al... and crimes of that nature that are directly the fault off business owners trying to get rich at all costs and deceiving the public, endangering the public, stealing from them, often killing people in the process...with no repercussions, no jail time what so ever.

This is no JUSTICE SYSTEM.
It may be a "system" but it certainly isn't any kind of justice.

It's ridiculous how people are penalized for being poor. You don't need to even use an example as heartbreaking or extreme as homelessness. In car insurance for example, if you pay for 6 months of insurance at a time you get a cheaper rate. But if you're too poor to afford a lump $600 payment and need to pay monthly instead, you actually have to pay quite a bit more. Effectively punishing poor people for being poor.


reply to post by Hopechest


You're not a very nice person, and you say awful and ignorant things. I feel kind of sorry for you.

reply to post by RedBird


Your rightuous delusion ignores the majority of public park user's desires. We're talking parents with kids, retired folk, sporty types, dog walkers... Most of this lot are a clean living bunch - unlike tramps dripping in urine and smeared in faeces..

I can only talk about Britain - which has seen parks and town-centers turned into alcohol-free zones (on the streets) and yobs, drunks & smack-heads in parks cracked down on in many places - much to the DELIGHT of the park users... Most of the piss-heads / smack-heads have a bed in a hostel to go to but they can't drink there jack-up or they're too wasted to be let in for the night so choose to crap themselves gouching on a bench instead - if they're arrested, it's for public hyigiene reasons as much as any...

If you're homeless and can't be bothered to find yourself a discreet spot for the night you're not going to last long... If they're going for the park bench they're just as likely TRYING to get a cell for the night...

Have you EVER KNOWN HOMELESS PEOPLE at all, let alone WELL (and I mean both senses of the word)? There are some nasty, uncaring, psychotic, schizoid, senile, thieving, druggy-piss-heads out there. The happy, kind tramp is a rare thing.

You'll never guess what the main club in town's called, TRAMPS?? Tramps also breed & encourage TRAMPISM - there are quite a few piss-head dads with piss-head sons who do the rounds from council accomodation where they get kicked out for anti-social behaviour, end up on the streets, hasseling random strangers, waiting for a hostel room which they will under-use because they can't drink there at night whilst waiting to get back into council accomodation... And REPEAT, FOR LIFE!

Originally posted by Hopechest
reply to post by SallieSunshine

 

Nah, we look down on them because they are foolish and lazy.

With the exception of an illness that debilitates you or a horrific accident that prevents you from working, there is no reason to be poor other than bad decisions in your life.

Its not my job to give you pity for being an idiot.

I will add, children are excepted from this, and all efforts should be made to provide for them.

That's charming, is this how you feel about the countless homeless ex service men and women, who served the country and are now physically injured or mentally scarred and need help, only to have the goverment they served turn their back on them, and the people they served for, speak like you just did.

How about runaway teens who have been sexually or violently abused, I guess it's all their fault too. People who were made redundant in times where their are no jobs, and have their houses taken off them, yep, they're just idiots.

Wow. Try thinking for a minute before posting, you won't look so calous.

Originally posted by Hopechest
Homeless people don't do it on rare occasions like students do. Those who are not homeless do not beg constantly, only when they forgot to bring money.

That is the difference.

Tell these people to get a job and make something of themselves rather than sponging off of me when I walk into the store.

Sorry but if you can walk over and beg me for money you can be out working.

Tinky are you for real ? Is this another of your grenade and run posts ?

Really - people who are homeless are in a catch twenty two situation, they cannot get dole without an address, they cannot get a job because they are forever tired and unable to clean themselves and their clothes easily.

They are often hungry, depressed and generally having a bad day !

Sleep easy with the thought that most of us are only 2 pay checks away from living on the street .. give or take.

Lets hope lady Fortune does not reward you with the actuality of walking a mile in a homeless persons shoes....

You know what they say - ' pride comes before a fall '

reply to post by RedBird

We are already living in a neo-feudalistic society!

I admire that you know what Feudalism is!!!

Everyone blames Capitalism, but in fact, in it's purest form Capitalism should not have become the monster that it has!

It is the Feudalistic rule of law, that has bastardised Capitalism, to the current form it has attained in our society.

reply to post by RedBird


Really good thread S and F.

I often think about how the poor or less well off, who are not homeless [ yet ] are also penalised.
By bailiffs, by late charges, penalty payments etc etc.

Our society stinks in that respect, it really does.

What a great topic, also kudos on your title. I am very close with the feelings that you have stated OP. I will admit it is a double sided coin, but you are 100 % correct on the treatment of tramps. I know all about this treatment as I have been discriminated for the same reasons.

In my life I have traveled to many places (in the US), at one point I was traveling with what is known as The Rainbow Family. An amazing group of young and old who are nomadic here in the states. These fine people travel from State and Federal park systems all over the country, and have given up on almost all aspects of modern money, the barter system is alive and well with the folks. It is amazing to me how these folks make their way through the world, and everywhere they leave is left as clean as when they found it. Now with any bunch they're will always be some bad apples, but for the most part these are great people just trying to get through life with a different way of walking the path.

While traveling with the rainbows it was very easy to see the everyday persecution of these people just getting to the next park, and the problems to come once we arrived at our destinations. It amazed me to see the different reactions of towns people whenever we would arrive in town. Some store owners would not even allow suspected Rainbows into their shops, and would call local authority as soon as anyone was near their property. The local, state, and park police would routinely troll and harass Rainbow campsites. Again there can be a bad element that is attracted to such a lifestyle, but to punish the many for the crimes of the few is just lunacy.

Hopefully some day as a people we will rise up and overcome these social stigmata's that everything foreign is socially unacceptable. Times are hard everywhere right now, just because you have a job and can provide for you and your family now, does not mean you always will.

Originally posted by Malynn
It's ridiculous how people are penalized for being poor. You don't need to even use an example as heartbreaking or extreme as homelessness. In car insurance for example, if you pay for 6 months of insurance at a time you get a cheaper rate. But if you're too poor to afford a lump $600 payment and need to pay monthly instead, you actually have to pay quite a bit more. Effectively punishing poor people for being poor.

This is what I was thinking when I read the thread title. To make matters worse if you are even too poor to afford the monthly payments, in some states (can't speak for all) they actually charge you a fine. For example in Maryland, my state of residence, if you go a day without car insurance, it is an automatic $150 fine. If you go longer than a month without insurance, they start adding a $7 a day fine to the $150 and will eventually revoke your tags. So basically they are fining people for being too poor to afford to pay for overpriced car insurance. This obviously doesn't affect the rich because they can all afford to pay for the car insurance.

Obamacare is another example, you get taxed (read: fined) if you don't have health insurance. Personally, I cannot afford health insurance and Obamacare making it mandatory that I have it, did nothing to make it more affordable for me. Now every time I hear the real name of Obamacare (AHCA) I seethe in rage, because it is anything BUT affordable.

Very nice and well thought out OP. Double standards and paradox's have plagued mankind from the invention of civility. It's crazy as all get up, but that's just the way it is.

It makes cringe that so many people are living paycheck to paycheck and can easily become one these people at any given time. Humans against humans just doesn't make sense to me. How we treat one another is a measure of ones compassion. Remember that on your next date. They show signs of inhumanity, get rid of em!

Have you ever been short a quarter for a cart, a parking meter, or a telephone call? If you're like most of us, you'd probably feel pretty silly asking a passer-by for some help. But chances are, if you did, someone would accommodate you -- so long as you were dressed for success. In fact, I bet that most of us, at one time or another, and not otherwise hard up, have asked a stranger for a nickel or a dime or a dollar. This is, strictly speaking, illegal. Panhandling, in most jurisdictions, is illegal. But have you ever been arrested or accosted for this? Have you ever bummed a cigarette from a stranger, or asked for a light? Have you ever been arrested or imprisoned for this act? Probably not. And why? Because you're not homeless.

you know, this HAS happened to me and not once....ONCE did a homeless person offer me the dime I needed.


Unbelievable!!

I'm glad that this thread has inspired such good discussion, and I'm glad that we're getting a lot of different perspectives and opinions.

Here is an interesting opinion article about the rule of law and its effect on poverty:

www.ft.com...

For those of you who are following this thread closely, I highly recommend giving it a read as it relates very closely to the discussion going on here.

EDIT: I had no trouble accessing this article, but it seems that following the link I provided brings the reader to a pay-wall.

To bypass the pay-wall, simply Google for: "Rule of law can rid the world of poverty" and select the first search result.

Also, for those who might be interested to know: The article was co-authored by George Soros -- so bear that in mind.

reply to post by XxkingofosirisxX2014


Excellent link, and very relevant to the discussion! Thank you for your contribution, and have a star!

-R

Originally posted by PrivateSi
reply to post by RedBird

 

Your rightuous delusion ignores the majority of public park user's desires. We're talking parents with kids, retired folk, sporty types, dog walkers... Most of this lot are a clean living bunch - unlike tramps dripping in urine and smeared in faeces..

...

Have you EVER KNOWN HOMELESS PEOPLE at all, let alone WELL (and I mean both senses of the word)? There are some nasty, uncaring, psychotic, schizoid, senile, thieving, druggy-piss-heads out there. The happy, kind tramp is a rare thing.

I have, in fact, known many homeless people quite well. I worked at a liquor store in downtown Calgary for three years, and as a baker at a downtown cafe for another two years. During that time I met many different people who were hard up; each of whom had a story, and each of whom was as much a human being as I am.

There was John, the alcoholic, who struggled with addiction for twenty years (now in his 50s) and had to find odd-jobs because he couldn't hold down shift work (let alone a 9-5) and couldn't find a place to live without any references. He slept at the shelter during the winter, but preferred to sleep outdoors when he could (so he would not risk harassment or abuse, which run rampant in city shelters.) John collected our recyclables every morning and took them to the depot. In exchange, we gave him a meal, and $10 bucks from the petty-cash drawer. Sometimes he would show up drunk, and we would remind him that this was unacceptable for us, and ask him to come back tomorrow. He made new staff members uncomfortable on occasion, but they eventually got used to him and came to accept him as a real (if eccentric) part of the family.

Then there was Bulgina. She was a Polish immigrant in her late forties who was diagnosed schizophrenic. She faced abuse and sexual harassment in the shelters and preferred to stay on the streets and sleep out. She had a lot of heavy wool clothes and blankets. We gave her free coffee, and let her eat the left-over macaroni and minestrone at the end of the lunch rush. She was very sweet, and an excellent conversationalist. She would have fit in on ATS -- she was a huge conspiracy theorist, and many of her theories were quite fascinating, even if a little bit insane. She often smelled faintly of urine, but so what? She slept outside for # sakes. Cut her some slack. She had a son, who had been taken away from her by social services (voices in her head told her to hurt him... a familiar story I have heard many times.) Eventually, her son turned 18, got a job, and started a life of his own. He was able to track her down, meet with his mother, and eventually Bulgina got the medication she needed, and regular visits from a social worker. She was still homeless -- still came by every morning for coffee and mac&cheese -- but her condition began to improve remarkably. The last I heard of her (before I left that job) she had been to the hospital, and they had found some worrying signs of illness unrelated to her psychological problems. The last time I spoke to her she expressed some fear that if she went to a hospital the doctors would implant a microchip in her brain, and she would become "just like everybody else", and lose that special spark that made her who she was. The last I heard, she was in hospice care, receiving regular visits from her son.

On Saturdays my boss and I would come down to the cafe (our day off) and pick up the unsold scones, sandwiches, and muffins, and bring them to the Mustard Seed. (Since we were closed Sunday, and they would be thrown out otherwise.) We got to meet a lot of homeless people this way; have conversations with them, and hear their stories.

People don't realize this, but most homeless people aren't homeless very long. The vast majority (90%) of "homeless" people are homeless for less than a week at any given time, until they get back on their feet. The remaining 10% ("chronic" homeless) are mostly individuals (like John) who struggle with mental illness or substance abuse, and have no family to help care for them. These individuals have truly fallen through the cracks, and many of them have been homeless so long that it would be very difficult for them to transition back to a normal life.

Also, it is worth noting: most homeless people have jobs. Some, like John, work odd jobs for local businesses and entrepreneurs, but most hold down regular jobs -- they just can't find someone willing to rent them a room. This is a lot more common than you might realize. It can be very difficult to rent a place when you are homeless, because most rental applications ask for a current address. When the applicant can't supply one, they just throw the application in the garbage. It's a vicious cycle.

So, yes, I DO know homeless people, and I have to say that I think you characterize them all wrong.

R

reply to post by RedBird


The main reason anyone is homeless is that America does not allow the homeless to make their own homes.

You can't even pitch a tent in the woods on public land without having it confiscated or torn up.

I did vinyl siding years ago and often slept in my truck to avoid motel bills. Its a bit of a trick to not get harassed. I never got busted, but got run off "camping" areas a few times.

What to do? It's a completely corrupt system from the top down. It is mean-spirited, brutal and heartless. There are caring individuals, and many of us humans are compassionate on an individual level but there is no sign of that compassionate in the government and economic system we all go along with every day. I wonder if the viciousness of modern society is really any less brutal than the natural world we have emancipated ourselves from. The current system is all about maintaining the lie that everything is moving forward smoothly and cleanly. Frankly nothing will continue going in any direction beyond further down the toilet until the VAST majority of people stops their autonomous compliance and participation in turning the gears of the death machine and manifests change together. How will that happen when we have generations being brought up in an institutionalized education system that fills their heads with garbage? When you look outside and see an ocean of people with their heads bent down into their tiny phone screens? When there is no we but only me against you and I need to be better than you to have worth. Although the population of homeless is ever-increasing and will continue as our civilization is intentionally and systematically imploded to busy us all with the struggle of mere survival, at present there are too many of us enjoying the privilege of having a roof over our heads and four walls to hide behind, safe from the gangs rounding up cheap forced labor for the prison industry.

Originally posted by Hopechest
reply to post by SallieSunshine

 

Nah, we look down on them because they are foolish and lazy.

I've read many of your posts throughout ATS and quite frankly this doesn't surprise me

reply to post by RedBird


Outstanding post Redbird!

Thank you very much, I very much enjoyed it and I feel very strongly that we should all try our very best even it's just a little bit to try to help as much as possible.

I do

s&f