Hell: what's the point?

What I don't understand is that people who sin go to Hell, right?
God sent Jesus here to teach us.
Jesus died for our sins. His death absolved humanity.
So, since we're all absolved, we cannot sin.
Therefore, we cannot go to Hell.

Also, since the Bible says the world is ~6000 years old, but we KNOW humanity is older than that, does that mean that the people who came before the Bible didn't go to Hell?

Ah, so many questions. If only a burning bush would explain it all to me.

The most simple answer is because God knows that without the threat of eternal punishment, very few people would follow him.

Why bother if your just going to be blinked out of existence? Sure I bet Heaven is a swell place but without ever experiencing it most people probably don't care.

Its basically God telling people to act a certain way or else. In our society we call that coercion and its punishable by law. He is basically holding a gun to people's heads.

I agree the concept of Hell and religion is not very useful. The real reason is that humans like the idea of fairness, and life is so unfair some need the concept of heaven and hell. It serves the same purpose as Karma. The strange thing is that it seems from my experience that goos things are more likely to happen to bad people, and bad things to good people. Which must make me a mug as I am not bad.

Originally posted by Hopechest
The most simple answer is because God knows that without the threat of eternal punishment, very few people would follow him.

Why bother if your just going to be blinked out of existence? Sure I bet Heaven is a swell place but without ever experiencing it most people probably don't care.

Its basically God telling people to act a certain way or else. In our society we call that coercion and its punishable by law. He is basically holding a gun to people's heads.

Actually, many people refuse to follow God for exactly that reason - they would not follow a God who would or could do that to people, a sadistic, psychotic god. Happily, it is not so. God loves, and He loves because that is "how He rolls." If you study the scriptures closely, you will find that all will be ultimately saved and reconciled to God. God's own Law does not prescribe eternal punishment, and in fact, His Jubilee law prescribes regular release from bondage and debt, a temporal pattern for a spiritual truth. God's scriptures also refute the concept of an immortal soul, without which eternal punishment cannot stand.

reply to post by JackofBlades

Jesus died for our sins. His death absolved humanity.

Jesus died so we don't have to die (in a permanent sort of way).
It wasn't a blood for sins trade transaction that "absolved" us of guilt from sin.
God is able to just forget your sins, once you have repented and cease doing those sins.
Jesus cleanses us from sin in a literal way, but not by a literal "washing" where someone takes a scrub brush dipped in blood collected under Jesus' cross. We become washed of sin by being internally purified by God's spirit so we don't sin, then we can stand before Him as sinless beings, and then live forever with God.

Isn't it amazing how universal a concept Hell is. It seems everyone whether they believe in it or not, seems to know about it. I mean star trek and star wars are well known but Hell even more so. Although perhaps this is good or we would have star trek, vs star wars wars. It makes it strange is that there is not as many films or books about it. You would think there would be a lot more about Hell. I mean if you believe in it then 50% of people you know will end up there.

reply to post by Lazarus Short

God's scriptures also refute the concept of an immortal soul, without which eternal punishment cannot stand.

But you do believe in a punishment or reward beyond this life, right?
If you were to be punished at some point after you die, then how is it that you were somehow 'alive' (in some sense) to know about your being handed out a punishment?
The immortality of the soul was a key concept to the early Christians and what the religion was dependent on to make any sense.
What you do in this lifetime is important because it affects what comes after.
If there is no 'after', then you could just live as you pleased, with no concerns.

reply to post by jmdewey60


The key here is "eternal" - I believe in punishments for many, but they will be corrective and temporal. The rewards will be age-lasting. I do not deny that all will have to give an account of themselves to God after they are resurrected.

How do you get around scriptures which state that the soul does die?

reply to post by Lazarus Short

The key here is "eternal" - I believe in punishments for many, but they will be corrective and temporal. The rewards will be age-lasting. I do not deny that all will have to give an account of themselves to God after they are resurrected.

In your version of the afterlife, can people also go back to being bad after 'getting their reward'? Seems everything is in a state of flux, so why not, and how is it any different that what we are living in now?

How do you get around scriptures which state that the soul does die?

Like . . which would that be?
There's one that I know of, and that is not talking about a hereafter, it's about how 'justice' will be done in a just way on the land, when things are set right in the "restored Israel".

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

The key here is "eternal" - I believe in punishments for many, but they will be corrective and temporal. The rewards will be age-lasting. I do not deny that all will have to give an account of themselves to God after they are resurrected.

In your version of the afterlife, can people also go back to being bad after 'getting their reward'? Seems everything is in a state of flux, so why not, and how is it any different that what we are living in now?

How do you get around scriptures which state that the soul does die?

Like . . which would that be?
There's one that I know of, and that is not talking about a hereafter, it's about how 'justice' will be done in a just way on the land, when things are set right in the "restored Israel".

Once people have been resurrected and then glorified, there is just no way anyone is going to go back to being bad. Can you even imagine how that could happen? I can't.

Revelation 156:3 "...became as the blood of a dead man, and every living soul died in the sea." [KJV]

If you have a good concordance, don't expect me to spoon-feed you - you can look it up. These days, I'd be lost without my Strong's.

reply to post by Lazarus Short

Once people have been resurrected and then glorified, there is just no way anyone is going to go back to being bad. Can you even imagine how that could happen? I can't.

You seem to have no trouble imagining it the other way around, the bad turning to good, in some other life or something.

Revelation 156:3 "...became as the blood of a dead man, and every living soul died in the sea." [KJV]

It's talking about a vision of some sort of catastrophe, where everyone dies. It's not talking about some sort of eternal death.

If you have a good concordance, don't expect me to spoon-feed you - you can look it up. These days, I'd be lost without my Strong's.

I'm being rhetorical because the fact is there are no verses in the Bible that say that. I've gone over this issue too many times on different threads and I'm sure there is never going to be a different outcome.
People who believe in a total annihilation of the soul do so because they were told to think so because of some sort of doctrine or something.
Or maybe in your case you came up with your own belief but one that was spliced together from pieces of different doctrines that already existed.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

Once people have been resurrected and then glorified, there is just no way anyone is going to go back to being bad. Can you even imagine how that could happen? I can't.

You seem to have no trouble imagining it the other way around, the bad turning to good, in some other life or something.

Revelation 156:3 "...became as the blood of a dead man, and every living soul died in the sea." [KJV]

It's talking about a vision of some sort of catastrophe, where everyone dies. It's not talking about some sort of eternal death.

If you have a good concordance, don't expect me to spoon-feed you - you can look it up. These days, I'd be lost without my Strong's.

I'm being rhetorical because the fact is there are no verses in the Bible that say that. I've gone over this issue too many times on different threads and I'm sure there is never going to be a different outcome.
People who believe in a total annihilation of the soul do so because they were told to think so because of some sort of doctrine or something.
Or maybe in your case you came up with your own belief but one that was spliced together from pieces of different doctrines that already existed.

edit on 17-3-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

You seem to have a problem with the bad turning to good, or am I misreading you? What is bad about bad turning to good, and is not that what the final chapters of the Revelation are all about? If "bad" is so intractable, how do we have any hope?

jmdewey60 sez:
"It's not talking about some sort of eternal death."

Laz replies:
Well, I think that was just my point - the living being (soul) dies, and is therefore not immortal. We all know that only God has that, and we are granted it as a blessing after temporal death. It is not something inherent in our present nature.

jmdewey60 sez:
I'm being rhetorical because the fact is there are no verses in the Bible that say that.

Laz replies:
I'm not sure what you are referring to here. In case you think I'm an Annihilationist, I'm not. I subscribe to Universal Reconciliation, and did not splice it together. UR is a coherent whole, and points to a God of love, not to the sadistic, psychotic god who so many see in the god of eternal torture and damnation. I believe UR is a superior interpretation of the Bible as a whole.

reply to post by Lazarus Short

Well, I think that was just my point - the living being (soul) dies, and is therefore not immortal.

You are just playing games with semantics.

Let's pretend we are speaking in modern English:
Someone is talking about the "soul" of something.
What does he mean when he says that?

OK, now let's pretend we are in the 16th century and we are speaking King James English:
Someone is talking about so many "souls".
What does he mean?

What you are doing is mixing it all up to pretend that it means whatever it takes to support your theory.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

Well, I think that was just my point - the living being (soul) dies, and is therefore not immortal.

You are just playing games with semantics.

Let's pretend we are speaking in modern English:
Someone is talking about the "soul" of something.
What does he mean when he says that?

OK, now let's pretend we are in the 16th century and we are speaking King James English:
Someone is talking about so many "souls".
What does he mean?

What you are doing is mixing it all up to pretend that it means whatever it takes to support your theory.

edit on 18-3-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

No, I am simply insisting on an accurate view of the "soul" which is consistent with the Bible and historical English usage. Most folks think there is some etherial, ineffable, spiritual part of themselves which they call the "soul," and which goes flipping off (hopefully) to Heaven when they die. That view conflicts with the Biblical view that the dead are dead, and we are not alive again until the resurrection. I am trying to remind people of who and what they are, mortal souls, and I really don't care if people call it "Bob," as long as they know the truth about life, death, and the resurrected life to come. Perhaps your view of body, soul, and spirit is a bit mixed up? I strictly follow the understanding laid down by God in the way He made Adam, and have stated so repeatedly in several threads on ATS.

reply to post by Lazarus Short

No, I am simply insisting on an accurate view of the "soul" which is consistent with the Bible and historical English usage.

I really don't know what you are doing. This sentence doesn't do much to clarify it.
You quoted Revelation and about one of the most obscure verses from a book generally obscure itself.
I don't think something like that is what you want as a foundation for your theory.

Most folks think there is some etherial, ineffable, spiritual part of themselves which they call the "soul," and which goes flipping off (hopefully) to Heaven when they die.

Where people may think it goes should not detract from the idea that there is something about you that continues on after death.

That view conflicts with the Biblical view that the dead are dead, and we are not alive again until the resurrection.

OK, and so does eating pork if you're talking about the Old Testament. And what makes you so sure about your being right?
Here's a book you can read: Shades of Sheol: Death and Afterlife in the Old Testament, Philip S. Johnston
You might learn something on the subject.
In the OT there are plenty of indications that they believed in a going to your ancestors, what was "going"? Something.

I am trying to remind people of who and what they are, mortal souls, and I really don't care if people call it "Bob," as long as they know the truth about life, death, and the resurrected life to come.

What we are is mortal. We can't stay as we are forever, that's clear enough without any kind of 'proof'.

Perhaps your view of body, soul, and spirit is a bit mixed up?

From what? I read books on the Bible, written by Christians who are scholars and experts in their fields. I don't base my theology on pop-culture like TV.

I strictly follow the understanding laid down by God in the way He made Adam, and have stated so repeatedly in several threads on ATS.

Adam is unique in how he was created and the terminology used to describe it is vague in the extreme, where it is full of words not found anywhere else in the world, that people can at best only guess at as to their exact meaning.
If you consider yourself a Christian, I would suggest you laying down your OT verses for a while, until you understand the New Testament.

reply to post by jmdewey60


OK.
I see your tactics, your subtle belittling and marginalization.
You are really quite good - a master sophist and debater.
I'm done here, and done answering you here or anywhere else this side of the veil.
I leave you to it.

Originally posted by JackofBlades
What I don't understand is that people who sin go to Hell, right?
God sent Jesus here to teach us.
Jesus died for our sins. His death absolved humanity.
So, since we're all absolved, we cannot sin.
Therefore, we cannot go to Hell.

Also, since the Bible says the world is ~6000 years old, but we KNOW humanity is older than that, does that mean that the people who came before the Bible didn't go to Hell?

Ah, so many questions. If only a burning bush would explain it all to me.

I think maybe this video will help you answer your first question regarding Hell:



Jimmy Akin is a well known Catholic apologetic, even if one isn't Catholic, I think this video is still relevant.

As far as dead people before the Bible, I think it needs some clarification. The Bible as we know it, was created in 300 something (the exact date escapes me), and by as we know it, I mean that these texts were out there, but not universally agreed upon nor put into one physical volume. So perhaps it should be rephrased as "What about the people that died before Christ?" In that case, we're told that Christ descended into Hell to proclaim the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there. The source gives a great explanation.

And we all sin. Every one of us. If you are genuine about your desire to know more, then I'd humbly recommend talking to a minister.

reply to post by IsidoreOfSeville


I will render two comments on the video:

1. The speaker did not definitively prove the existence of Hell. I maintain that it is a 404/Not Found.

2. The view expressed in the video limits an unlimited Sovereign God, by the refusal of sinful men. I subscribe to Irresistible Grace, and a God who can over-ride the puny will of man.

reply to post by Lazarus Short


Appreciate the response!

1. My thoughts are this: What proof would you need? Experiencing it yourself? I mean, what would it take to convince you?

2. I share your belief in a sovereign God. And as such he's not a micro-manager. He gave us all free will. I mean it's no different (in my mind) than one setting boundaries or rules for a child. "Timmy/Suzy if you don't follow rules, you'll be in time out!" So, how is it so far fetched that we wouldn't potentially reap the consequences of what we sow? God loves us unconditionally, yes, but as a sovereign God, He is also a just God, no?

Originally posted by IsidoreOfSeville
reply to post by Lazarus Short

 

Appreciate the response!

1. My thoughts are this: What proof would you need? Experiencing it yourself? I mean, what would it take to convince you?

2. I share your belief in a sovereign God. And as such he's not a micro-manager. He gave us all free will. I mean it's no different (in my mind) than one setting boundaries or rules for a child. "Timmy/Suzy if you don't follow rules, you'll be in time out!" So, how is it so far fetched that we wouldn't potentially reap the consequences of what we sow? God loves us unconditionally, yes, but as a sovereign God, He is also a just God, no?

1. I find little said about Heaven in the Bible. Most of it is said by Jesus after the formula "The Kingdom of Heaven is like..." If we look at the words translated as "Hell," we find mostly "the grave." The closest thing I can see to a Hell is the Lake of Fire, which is a different thing, because Death and Hell (again, the Grave) are thrown into it. Hell is not to be thrown into itself, is it? Anyway, after Death and the Grave have been destroyed in the LoF, no one can be dead to be suffering in Hell can they? It all makes sense together to me. I have posted elsewhere on my theory of the Four Props of Hell (I admit, there may be more.):
#1 the concept of the immortality of the soul, a product of Greek philosophy, I believe
#2 the concepts of "Hel," "Hades," and "Inferno" coming over from the pagan world
#3 mistranslations of various words, as sheol, Gehenna, Tartarus, etc., to fit #1 & #2
#4 fictional accounts, which are not verifiable or entirely Biblical, such as Dante and Milton.

2. Having experienced Irresistible Grace in my own life, having been dragged into the Kingdom, I stand on the absolute Sovereignty of God. I know that I, you, everybody, makes decisions every day, but in the end, I think Free Will is an illusion, or at best, a bit of "wiggle room" God gives us to supplement a set outcome. I have been in on freewill discussions before, and there never seems to be any resolution, so let's agree to disagree, shall we? I don't buy into either the Predestinarian or the Free Will camps, but I suspect we will learn on the other side of the veil, that everything was set into place from the foundation of the world.

Yes, He is a very just God, and it recently jelled in my mind that God's justice was to send His only Son to die for us. That is light-years beyond any human conception of justice, don't you think?

BTW, I appreciate your courteous and thoughtful response, as I have been burned lately by some other posters' attitudes and methods.