Landowner asks $3.9M for part of Wounded Knee site

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posted on Feb, 14 2013 @ 11:03 AM
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Though my emotions are high as a result of the subject article, this post is in no way any sort of a “rant,” nor is it to be interpreted as such. The purpose of this post is to deny ignorance – to show some facts about two events, to draw a parallel from one of them to a modern day event, and to bring awareness. I would respectfully request that if you disagree with my sentiments, please do so in a respectful manner; don’t minimize this situation and please do not perpetuate ignorance.

Article

Too often we see the worst side of people. This situation is an outstanding example of that worst side.

Two sections of the article:


One of the country's poorest Native American tribes wants to buy a historically significant piece of land where 300 of their ancestors were killed, but tribal leaders say the nearly $4 million price tag for a property appraised at less than $7,000 is just too much.

James Czywczynski is trying to sell a 40-acre fraction of the Wounded Knee National Historic Landmark on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation to the Oglala Sioux Tribe. The land sits adjacent to a gravesite where about 150 of the 300 Lakota men, women and children killed by the 7th Cavalry in 1890 are buried.

Czywczynski, whose family has owned the property since 1968, recently gave the tribe an ultimatum: purchase the land for $3.9 million or he will open up bidding to non-Native Americans. He said he has been trying to sell the land to the tribe for years.

The ultimatum comes right before the tribe is poised to receive about $20 million from the Cobell lawsuit— a $3.4 billion settlement stemming from a class-action lawsuit filed over American Indian land royalties mismanaged by the government for more than a century.

and


Czywczynski, who also is trying to sell another 40-acre piece of nearby land to the tribe for $1 million, also noted a coalition of Sioux tribes raised $9 million in December to buy land about 100 miles away in the Black Hills — although the Oglala Sioux Tribe did not contribute to that effort.

"I'm getting older now and my family and myself want to dispose of this property," said Czywczynski, 75, who now lives in Rapid City. "We just want to see it in the hands of the Indian people rather than put it on the open market to the public."


Much about the Oglala and Pine Ridge Rez can be found here. It's worth the read.

This link contains a (non-youtube) video of photographs taken on the Rez by someone who got more than he bargained for when he went to investigate the poverty. Several of the photos in the video SHOW the viewer exactly what poverty looks like ~ not movie poverty, not 'some small place in a Country we've never been to' poverty, but poverty right here in our own Country. THESE are the people from whom Mr. Czywczynski would like to get almost $4 million because he just "want(s) to see it in the hands of the Indian people."

If you read the stats in the link provided after the article text, you would know that the average ANNUAL income on this Rez is $3,050.00. That's per PERSON, per YEAR. Most Americans live on more than that per MONTH. As the article states, the land being offered has a valuation of $7,000.00. Just the $7,000 would be incredibly difficult for this Tribe to raise.

In 1996, Elouise Cobell, a Blackfeet Tribe member, decided she had had enough of the misappropriations, lies and theft committed by the U.S. government; she single-handedly went about doing what she could to right some of the wrong. Ms. Cobell filed the suit that is mentioned in the article. It became her life's work and she lived just long enough to see victory.

The suit was settled in 2010 and since then red tape and other stall methods have kept the People from receiving one dime. It now appears that some of the payments might begin - just in time for Mr. Czywczynski to charge $4 million for $7,000 worth of land - and the other million he's asking for, of course, for a piece of the Black Hills. Mr. Czywczynski cannot be unaware of the settlement; after all, the article specifically states he "noted" that a coalition of Sioux recently raised $9mil to buy back a portion of the (sacred) Black Hills.

Czywczynsky is not offering to 'sell' anything - in truth, he's holding that land hostage as is clearly indicated by the phrase that he "recently gave the tribe an ultimatum: purchase the land for $3.9 million or he will open up bidding to non-Native Americans." An ultimatum. An ultimatum given to some of THE poorest people in our entire Country for that which is sacred to them.

The Wounded Knee land means more than I can describe; more than I can fully understand because, though I am Indian, I am not Sioux. Liken it, perhaps, to the land where the Twin Towers stood. How much is that piece of land worth to the people of New York City? How much is it worth to those who survived it or lost loved ones there? For purposes of understanding what I am hoping to convey, consider how you would feel if you read an article that that plot of land was being offered to the survivors and families of the victims of 9/11 for $200mil, but failing their ability to come up with $200mil, the sellers would then offer it to foreign investors for $2mil.

Wounded Knee is not “ancient history” as so many like to describe it. Consider these words
from Tim Giago:


On December 29, 1890, my grandmother, Sophie, was a 17-year-old student at the Holy Rosary Indian Mission, a Jesuit boarding school just a few miles from Wounded Knee. She was called out with the rest of the students to feed and water the horses of the soldiers of the 7th Cavalry that had just rode on to the mission grounds chasing down survivors that had escaped the slaughter. My grandmother recalled seeing blood on their uniforms and she overheard them bragging about the mighty victory they had just scored at Wounded Knee.

That's right, my grandmother, who is now deceased, remembered. Now does that make the Massacre at Wounded Knee ancient history to me? You bet that it does not. Many other Lakota still living today had grandmothers and grandfathers that were either killed or survived the massacre. No, it is not ancient history to the Lakota.


How fresh must the vision of those bloodied uniforms have remained in the memory of that 17 year old girl. I cannot imagine that the memory ever faded from her mind. How could it? She had just fed and watered the horses used to go kill her People.

For how long will you remember where you were on 9/11/2001? Will you tell your children about it? Your grandchildren? How long will they remember? How much more vivid will your stories be if you were a survivor of 9/11? If you were a widow/widower/orphan of that horror or if you lost a child in it? How fresh will every memory of that day be to them? With what emotion will they relate their stories to their descendants? Wounded Knee is NO different to the Sioux.




posted on Feb, 14 2013 @ 11:08 AM
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It is difficult to find sufficient sources that would portray the truth of Wounded Knee as the history of it was re-configured as soon as it happened. Seldom is it told that of the 350 Indians present, 230 were women and children. This is a relatively accurate article and contains many of the photographs taken to record the event.

They wanted only to dance for the coming of a Savior; to be free again. It brought them death by Hotchkiss guns even after they had surrendered, been rounded up and been disarmed. Those wounded, but not immediately killed, were left to freeze to death. A few infants, miraculously alive two days later, were found under the frozen bodies of their mothers.

It cannot be denied that anything is worth what someone will pay for it; nor that the prevalent mindset of virtually all people of all ethnic backgrounds is to extract as much value from something as possible. Czywczynski HAS the right to ask what he wants to for his pieces of land - even if it is land that once BELONGED to the Sioux by Treaty; even if the $3.9 million is for ground soaked with their blood. But would not, say $50k, be enough for a piece of land valued at $7,000.00? He doesn’t “want” them to have it; he wants them to PAY. He wants as big a piece of the Cobell suit as he can possibly get. If he goes ahead and “…open(s) up bidding to non-Native Americans,” do you think it will bring much more than the $7,000 at which it is valued?

The Black Hills have always been sacred – the Creator's Cathedral, if you will - to the indigenous People of North America. The 1868 Fort Laramie Treaty included the Black Hills as part of the Great Sioux Reservation and the U.S. government swore the Hills would always belong to the Sioux. Forever ended up being 6 years later when one of Custer's expeditions found gold there. Three years after that, in 1877, the Gov't confiscated those sacred Hills. In the 1940s egregious insult was added to injury when the faces of a few of the "Great White Fathers" - those at the top of the chain of the authors of lies - were carved into them.

In the '80s, the Gov't (over 100 years after the theftt) awarded a little over $100mil to the Sioux for the theft of the Black Hills. The Sioux did not take the money. Why? Because the Hills were never for sale. It was and is a matter of honor; an acknowledgement that no amount of money can repay the theft of that which is sacrosanct. Instead, they wait for pieces to be offered for sale and then they work hard to purchase them back because the only thing that might be honored is a Deed in their name. A Deed might keep the lands safe for the Sioux.

In another thread, a member shared that Natives often refer to people of European descent as 'wasicu' which, loosely translated, means "takes the fat." The fat portion of the meal was once considered the very best and was reserved for highly honored guests, warriors, the elderly. If one were serving oneself first, it would be considered a gross breach of manners to take the fattest portions; but, Europeans who were invited to meals were always offered to serve themselves first and, virtually without fail, they would take the choicest pieces (the fat) for themselves - a blatant display of greed and bad manners.

Czywczynski no more represents all persons of European descent any more than I represent all indigenous persons; however, he is a shining example of wasicu. In fact, were there an annual Wasicu Award, I would nominate him without hesitation.

The video clip I provided above is contained in an article titled "The Arrogance of Ignorance." Since we here at ATS have a motto of denying ignorance, I thought Czywczynski's "offerings" to be a good way to bring denial of ignorance of the plight of some Native Americans to the forefront.

Ken Salazar, Secretary of the Interior, stated at the time of final approval of the lawsuit settlement “With the settlement now final, we can put years of discord behind us and start a new chapter in our nation-to-nation relationship."

But thanks to the likes of Mr. Czywczynski, we can clearly see that there will be no new chapters and that very little will change.

Perhaps if enough people of European descent made it known to Mr. Czywczynski that his actions are greedy and unacceptable and reflect on them in a guilt-by-association sort of way, he might relent and ask a fair and reasonable price. Perhaps if enough people knew the truth of Wounded Knee and knew about the sacredness of the Black Hills, they would understand … at least a little. Perhaps knowing the truth and acknowledging it would begin to ‘put years of discord behind us.’

The Native Peoples of the Americas don’t want pity. They don’t want charity. They want acknowledgment and acceptance of the truth. Deny ignorance.
edit on 14-2-2013 by SeesFar because: to correct typos made in haste



posted on Feb, 14 2013 @ 11:32 AM
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It really is sad to see these kinds of atrocities committed against the Native American tribes, even so many years later. If I had millions, you can be sure that I would gift the tribe the money so they may purchase it. It's truly sad how disgusting some people have become. Apparently in the 75 years of this mans life, he hasn't learned kindness or wisdom.

His soul will fight with it's own demons when he passes, and the price he pays will be much larger than the 3.7 million he's asking for from the tribe.

My hope and love goes out to this tribe, and I'll continue envisioning a world where humans get back to their roots.


"Traditional people of Indian nations have interpreted the two roads that face the light-skinned race as the road to technology and the road to spirituality. We feel that the road to technology.... has led modern society to a damaged and seared earth. Could it be that the road to technology represents a rush to destruction, and that the road to spirituality represents the slower path that the traditional native people have traveled and are now seeking again? The earth is not scorched on this trail. The grass is still growing there." -William Commanda



posted on Feb, 14 2013 @ 11:43 AM
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Originally posted by b3l13v3
It really is sad to see these kinds of atrocities committed against the Native American tribes, even so many years later. If I had millions, you can be sure that I would gift the tribe the money so they may purchase it. It's truly sad how disgusting some people have become. Apparently in the 75 years of this mans life, he hasn't learned kindness or wisdom.

His soul will fight with it's own demons when he passes, and the price he pays will be much larger than the 3.7 million he's asking for from the tribe.

My hope and love goes out to this tribe, and I'll continue envisioning a world where humans get back to their roots.


"Traditional people of Indian nations have interpreted the two roads that face the light-skinned race as the road to technology and the road to spirituality. We feel that the road to technology.... has led modern society to a damaged and seared earth. Could it be that the road to technology represents a rush to destruction, and that the road to spirituality represents the slower path that the traditional native people have traveled and are now seeking again? The earth is not scorched on this trail. The grass is still growing there." -William Commanda


Thank you for your opinions on this matter and for the great Commanda quote. If you've not had a chance to read it, Masqua created a great thread on Commanda and the Seven Fires Prophecy back in 2005. You can find it here.



posted on Feb, 14 2013 @ 11:50 AM
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You don't sell Indian reservations. Especially ones that are attached to a graveyard like this.... Them there feathers are gonna set a curse in motion.... Preverbial: Indian Curse.... They are full of superstition and to them it's very real. And you don't disrupt and Indian cemetary that's bad manners... That's like me taking a leek on someone grave and then selling the headstone to the highest bidder.



posted on Feb, 14 2013 @ 11:58 AM
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If I were that man, I would give it to them free of charge.



posted on Feb, 14 2013 @ 12:22 PM
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Blackfeet here... we were talking about this over xmas.. among our own current issue with the missing money and assaults on rez ( DHS and rez cops assaulting old women... story for another time
) Anyway, it may be a matter of waiting this guy out. The land isnt prime building land or farming land, he just sees an oportunity to price gouge because he sees the tribe getting some money and wants more than the land is worth. If it appraises for 7K, others in the open market WONT pay millions for it. Let it sit till he dies if need be. He he finagles it to be appraised at a higher amt, let hs heirs pay the taxes on the false amount until they come to their senses. If they dont get it, fine. Let the ancestors fight it out. The money needs to be put toward keeping them alive and having the basic necessities that everyone else in 2013 America has.

Pine ridge is a wasteland for being the 2nd largest rez... 40K or so people and the average lifespan is in the 40's?? Gotta bigger problem than some historic land a greedy landowner. A cousin married into my family ( Siksika - Piegan) over from Medicine Root on Pine RIdge... there are about a bazillion kids and barely any adults as theyre dying off before they can raise their kids... everyone has a " gramma" raising them. For this guy to demand that gouged amount from a place with 85% unemployment and abject poverty....seems ludicrous. The cousin has to drive about 125 miles to Rapid CIty to work. Most cant, and you know as well as I do.. no one can in parts of the winter. People are talking about putting in flushing toilets and insulation in homes... and this guy wants such an inflated amount. Just really irks the hell out of me.

Dont expect any good advise or help from the BIA.. those bastards are responsible for the whole mess being perpetuated this long. Theyre complicit in killing off folks in many tribes....slowly. My father was a very vocal anti BIA activist who left Browning with my mother in the late 60's. I wasnt born on rez.. he wouldn't hear of it. Im almost 50 and have had my OWN run ins with the BIA and council .. the latest being late last yr concerning my mother and DHS trained rez cops on the acting like gestapo. Just my own opinion based on what Ive seen with my own family and friends over the yrs.. you can bet the BIA has a finger in this amount the land owner is asking. Same mess as Cobell ( Yellow Bird Woman) was finding when she came back... "irregularities" and deals. If the feds are paying out, they are wanting it back... in one way or the other.



posted on Feb, 14 2013 @ 12:24 PM
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Originally posted by doobydoll
If I were that man, I would give it to them free of charge.


Thats because you are a real human being, Dooby.... and recognize there is a price to pay for greed.

Love the Avatar youre sporting, btw!!



posted on Feb, 14 2013 @ 12:25 PM
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Originally posted by doobydoll
If I were that man, I would give it to them free of charge.


I'm sure that you would. =)

We cannot know the seller's circumstances. Perhaps he needs money as so many of us do; however, to offer something at, what? about 560 times more than it's valuation is ridiculous. And then to issue an ultimatum to the very People to whom it means most. I just don't get it. $70,000 would be ten times its value and I'm sure would tally up a nice profit for him considering he bought it (likely at market value) back in 1968.

I feel sorry for that seller. The other poster(s) were correct when they said he will ultimately pay some price for his actions.

A part of me would like to start an off-site page to see if I could get 4 million people to contribute $1 each; however, to do so would be to reward the seller's greed as well as send a message to others that they can get by with it, too.

I'd rather find a way to expose him to the public, which is one of the reasons for this thread.

Your kindheartedness is appreciated.



posted on Feb, 14 2013 @ 12:43 PM
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Originally posted by SeesFar

Originally posted by doobydoll
If I were that man, I would give it to them free of charge.


I'm sure that you would. =)

We cannot know the seller's circumstances. Perhaps he needs money as so many of us do; however, to offer something at, what? about 560 times more than it's valuation is ridiculous. And then to issue an ultimatum to the very People to whom it means most. I just don't get it. $70,000 would be ten times its value and I'm sure would tally up a nice profit for him considering he bought it (likely at market value) back in 1968.

I feel sorry for that seller. The other poster(s) were correct when they said he will ultimately pay some price for his actions.

A part of me would like to start an off-site page to see if I could get 4 million people to contribute $1 each; however, to do so would be to reward the seller's greed as well as send a message to others that they can get by with it, too.

I'd rather find a way to expose him to the public, which is one of the reasons for this thread.

Your kindheartedness is appreciated.


I imagine anything would help, but on many tribal and intertribal forums, there are already accounts and ways to support this. This has been a topic of discussion for quite some time. The problem is the inflated amount and not wanting to give into this kind of extortion... overvaluation of the land... and the tax complications. There are enrolled tribal members who are attorneys off rez who are doing a bit on this and have been for some time along with council. HOWEVER.. every bit counts.



posted on Feb, 14 2013 @ 01:06 PM
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I remember as a young boy, having saved a few bucks. I went to the record store and got me a single of led Zeppelin and this single by Redbone. Since English is not my native language, I never understood the words until I found it again on YT. I played the single to shreds though. It was fascinating.

Now knowing what was behind it, makes it even more special to me.



This single was shamelessly banned in the us. It seems like wounded knee is far from healing.



posted on Feb, 14 2013 @ 01:09 PM
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The guy should do the right thing and give them the land...It belongs to them, regardless of what any piece of paper might say.



posted on Feb, 14 2013 @ 01:26 PM
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reply to post by Advantage
 


As tragic as the situation is, it seems to me that the only viable option *is* to wait this guy out. That is why I am reluctant to do something to help raise the money - because giving him the whole amount sets a precedent that I believe is wrong ~ too many others would follow suit. On the other hand, if you can link me (even by U2U if you don't want to make it public) to a fund to which I can contribute, I would love to do so. If the Oglala let him sit on it until he or his heirs put it up for public bid, there's nothing to stop the Oglala from participating in the public bidding and perhaps getting it for a reasonable amount. I would love to help them build a fund up just for that purpose.

$3.9 mil is about 20% of the money the Oglala are supposed to get ... TWENTY PERCENT! .... and HE wants it. It is frustrating beyond belief. Further, I could not agree with you more that the $20 mil needs to be spent on housing, safe water, sanitation, heating funds, gang eradication, better substance awareness and treatment, you name it - there's so much needed that I don't see how $20 mil could begin to be enough.

I'm grateful to you for posting about your in-law driving 125 miles to work. I wish people would realize that's one way; 250 miles round trip ... 5 days a week ... or try to find a place in town during the week and only see your family on the weekend. So many outsiders don't understand that; they cannot conceive just how far it is for some people to even try to get a job. Too often we hear "Well, why don't they get off the Reservation?!" How do you buy a car with no income? How do you finance a move with no income? How do you move with no car? How do you get a job when you're 30 or more years old and there's never been any jobs available for you to gain experience? And, as you well know, that's not even touching the tip of the 'leave-the-Rez' iceberg.

Neither was I born on Rez, but that doesn't stop us from knowing family and friends on Rez; it doesn't stop us from being aware of the needs. BIA. Maybe we have an advantage (if you'd call it that) to know about the needs simply because of heritage, family and friends, but the information is out there for everyone to know and there's no excuse for people not to know.

Pbhhhtttt. If it's on the Rez and it stinks and people suffer, you know the BIA is right in the middle of it.


Originally posted by Advantage
If the feds are paying out, they are wanting it back... in one way or the other.


And that's the real scary part, innit? What will it be, from where will it come, how bad will the blindsiding be?



posted on Feb, 14 2013 @ 01:32 PM
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Originally posted by isyeye
The guy should do the right thing and give them the land...It belongs to them, regardless of what any piece of paper might say.


Well.... there is a thought that land belongs to no one.. that sacred lands should remain sacred and not be a possession. Land is borrowed... mainly for plains NDNs. The idea of a designated spot of earth to say on wasnt really the idea of plains folks, but the feds.
Youre getting into funny territory with whats belongs to whom and "ownership/tenure". I have a link if youre interested in a little background, but this IS 2013 and the man does legally own the land himself. I dont see a problem selling what you have paid for at a reasonable fair market value. Times are hard, he has a right to make money, but it isnt right to gouge property values because he can. Most are very agreeable to pay fair market value for the land as it is appraised.. even a little higher than appraisal, just not millions.
Other tribes wil kick in money for PR to buy this.. but not at that mans ridiculous amount.. wherever he pulled it from.

matriarchy.info...



posted on Feb, 14 2013 @ 01:36 PM
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reply to post by SeesFar
 


You think $100,000 an acre is too high for a historic site?

How is 40 acres appraised at $7,000? Maybe in 1710......

What is the issue here? The seller wants 4 mill.....If they don't want to pay it, someone will.....

Sorry I see no problems with this at all.....



posted on Feb, 14 2013 @ 01:49 PM
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If the Lakota wanted it for a site of reverence and communion, I would be for them getting it for free.

If the Lakota wanted it for a historical site for their people, I would be for them getting it for free.

If the Lakota want it for a commercial enterprise (paid museum, craft shop, tourist trap), I think the owner should be compensated. How much money will the Lakota make off this property in 20 years? 50?

They want to make money, but they don't want to spend money to do so.

The land was lost to them through conquest. Whether they were out gunned or out maneuvered makes no difference. They have the choice to invest money in the tribes future (buy the land), or rise up and reclaim it through conquest.

Best of luck to them either way.
edit on 14-2-2013 by 200Plus because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 14 2013 @ 05:09 PM
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Originally posted by Chrisfishenstein
reply to post by SeesFar
 


You think $100,000 an acre is too high for a historic site?

How is 40 acres appraised at $7,000? Maybe in 1710......

What is the issue here? The seller wants 4 mill.....If they don't want to pay it, someone will.....

Sorry I see no problems with this at all.....


Yes, I think so when his targeted "market" has been issued an ultimatum AND that ultimatum *happens* to coincide with the Oglala about to receive $20mil from the Cobell lawsuit AND the land holds such sentimental value to no one but the Sioux. Also, please note that Advantage indicated the land is neither prime building nor farming land. Further, had you read any of the links provided, you'd know that the land is located about 120 miles away from the nearest town and over 300 miles away from the nearest large city. As employment opportunities decline, so do land values.

Here are a few comparisons for you.

Here is a 4 bdrm, 3,000+ square feet home on 60 acres for only $220,000.00 in the general area. The listing says the price per square foot for the home is $72. Do the math and it doesn't leave the acreage worth much at all, does it?

This listing comes out to not quite $3,100 an acre; of course, it's almost 100 miles away from Pine Ridge and within an easy drive of a job, so it *would* be worth more. But, if Mr. Czywczynski wanted to sell his 40 acres at the over-inflated price of $3,100 per, he'd be asking $124,000 for it; NOT $4 million.

Here we have a listing for what is touted as a "productive farm" of 160 in a neighboring County. 160 PRODUCTIVE acres is going for $1,500 per acre. At $1,500 per acre, Mr. Czywczynski would be asking $60,000 for his land; NOT $4 million.

Here in Butte County is 119 acres for $49,623.00 or $417 per acre. Using that price, Mr. Czywczynski's 40 acres would have a value of $16,000; NOT $4 million.

Yes, it is absolutely conceivable that the land (all 40 acres of it) IS listed on the tax rolls with an appraised value of $7,000.00. Remember, we are talking about remote, virtually unusable land. You'll notice here that Shannon County, SD (where the subject property is located) doesn't even have it's own Tax Assessor-Collector. Those services are provided by nearby Fall River County and, unfortunately, they don't have an online look up or I would have found the specific property for you.

But notice that Shannon County in the link above "is entirely within the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation and contains part of Badlands National Park." Have you seen the Badlands? Just Google "photos South Dakota Badlands" and tell us if you think that friendly, useable land is worth more than a couple hundred dollars an acre - you can't even graze cattle on most of it - you'd have to do a LOT of supplemental feeding.

So, given that information, why do you suppose he's offering it to the Oglala for $4 mil rather than listing it? Still think someone else will pay it?

Do you believe he will get much more than $200 per acre for it when it lets it go to bid? Really?

I respect your opinion; however, I am very disappointed that you quite obviously did not read any of the links provided or look at the photos. Had you done so, the land valuations of the area would have been rather obvious.

Further, I am presuming that since you are alright with Mr. Czywczynski asking such an inflated price for his land you are equally alright with the idea of the land where the Twin Towers once stood being sold to foreign investors.

And, btw, 1710? Not a good example, particularly in this instance. Remember, in 1710, it wasn't necessarily necessary to actually purchase land with money. You just took it, built on it, and told the Natives that it was no longer theirs.



posted on Feb, 14 2013 @ 05:27 PM
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It comes right when the tribe is about to receive 20 million?????

And you don't think there's a justification to make some money here?

Are telling me that if I wanted something that you knew was valuable to me that you owned, and you found out I was a millionaire you wouldn't raise the price?

If the tribe did it right, they should be able to claim that land for free. But they are getting money, 20 million of it. So my question is this. Is 3.9 million or the graves more important? If the graves, then pay the money!

Money reveals greed in both rich and poor.

edit on 14-2-2013 by pacifier2012 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 14 2013 @ 05:28 PM
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post removed because the user has no concept of manners

Click here for more information.



posted on Feb, 14 2013 @ 07:01 PM
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Originally posted by pacifier2012
If you can 'seefar' could you have not 'forseen' this?


That rather sad contribution really merits no response, but I do try to be polite. My screen name is a joke from me to me. It comes from my poor eyesight; i'm extremely far-sighted.





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