Ex Carmelite Nun's Testimony- real or fake? Charlotte Keckler

I was browsing youtube this morning for lectures and speeches regarding theology. The first one I watched was Karen Armstrong talking about her book 'The Spiral Staircase' - a memoir. Interesting itself...and I highly recommend it.

But I've chosen to open this thread with "suggested line-up" that followed. This is a woman's recorded testimony of her experience of the torture, depravity, and hideous reality (EDIT: or is it fiction?) of the young girls and women who are duped into joining the Carmelite Convent, and it's so horrifying that it actually made me physically nauseated.

Things may very well have changed - and I know there are former nuns on this board who can say whether or not they have - but this woman's plea and her insistence on bringing the truth out from behind the convent walls, and to deliver those poor women from real hell, is poignant and timely, considering the Pope's 'quitting.'

The tape is about an hour long, and actually cuts off before she tells the way she escaped, and I'll look more into it for followup, but I thought there are people here on ATS who would be as shocked and surprised as I was...

and would like to know what you all think about it.
And so, I give you:
Dark secrets of the Catholic Church; Ex nun Confesses

EDIT to change the title. Appears many think she was a fraud. But, WAS SHE? And if she was or wasn't - think of how many people she'd have impacted with this horror story...
Ugh.

And there are numerous articles and blogs and discussions about whether she was lying.
I'd never heard of her before. Thoughts? ATS?
Do a Google search for Charlotte Keckler or Sister Charlotte.

Was she an Evangelical Liar? Or a victim of Religious Horror?
BIZARRE. Mind-blowing.

All religious people are delusional (and brainwashed as children) but some people are more delusional than others. Look at that ridiculous outfit the pope puts on every morning. How can you do that even once without thinking, 'this is insane!' I'm sorry that this woman was deluded enough to join a monastery and for whatever torture she endured whether self-inflicted to avoid purgatory or inflicted by others, but her own mind was keeping her imprisoned. All she had to do was walk away.

Ironically enough, I ran across Miss Keckler's story when I was researching a certain somebody's nitwit pastor:

What follows is the whole of my correspondence with Cohen Reckart concerning the claims of Charlotte Keckler. In the end, I lost my cool. I feel a vague sense of regret about that - but only a little. (Source)

It's an interesting read, but probably not what you're looking for

What little I looked into Charlotte Keckler has indicated that, as is usually the case with these instances of extreme behaviour being claimed as systemic in the Catholic Church, they are supported and promoted by anti-Catholics, and no one else.

Personally, I don't believe her story, any more than the stories of crackpots who claim that there are human sacrifices routinely conducted at the Vatican.

ETA: While looking for something else, I ran across someone who noted that Keckler's story has quite a bit in common with Maria Monk, which was shown to be an anti-Catholic fraud. Whether it's just a rehashing of that 19th Century book or not would lead you to your answer.

reply to post by adjensen


Thanks adj, yes, I saw that she has been linked to Maria Monk (another person of whom I have never heard).

See the problem with religious bickering and slander and misrepresentation and outright lies? NONE of them can be believed!
Just as Ms Keckler's story mirrored Maria Monk's (I haven't read it yet, but will do so), so do the Bible Stories mimic previous stories told by other cultures, people, and eras. It's ironic - don't you think?

And whether she was lying and a fraud or not, SHE DID IMPACT PEOPLE's lives, thoughts, beliefs, and minds. That is the problem. Anytime we "believe" someone on their word alone, or on their writings or stories alone, we are misled. To whatever small degree, we ARE MISLED.

My husband likes to repeat anecdotes, and has told me many of his youth, presenting them consistently and credibly. We've been long enough now, however, that we have SHARED experiences which he remembers differently. I have heard him tell people about things that he exaggerated - still believing it was truth, while I KNOW it was not -- .

No matter how much we love someone or want to believe them, that does not make what they say true. I love him no less, I simply now realize that all of his prior-to-our-acquaintance anecdotes may NOT be like he described them.

IF this is true for Charlotte Keckler, Maria Monk, or any other fraud or con-man lying for whatever reason -- delusion, madness, corruption, greed, chicanery, or simply mistaken belief --, AND it is true of my husband, who is not deliberate in his errors of memory or his exaggerations, IT IS DOUBLY SO FOR SCRIPTURE.

Certainly the RCC has committed horrible things; this IS PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE, and proven. So, it doesn't take much to take Charlotte''s story at face value. The things she describes mimick the Inquisition's Torture Chambers, the witch hunts, the torture of myriad people.......which ARE TRUE. So, how do we discern?

It's a mess. That's why I choose to believe none of them. NONE of the stories that were passed down to people who wrote them much later, or who heard them from others, or had dreams, visions, fugue-state epiphanies.....
NONE of them are trustworthy, no matter how seeming credible. Could these horrors have happened to Charlotte? YES, they could have. Bad enough that it is humanly possible to invent and carry out such atrocities.

But to insist that IMPOSSIBLE things happened based on equally sketchy hearsay is partly the fault of the person choosing to believe them.

Thanks for contributing!

reply to post by signalfire

I appreciate your response. If you listen to her recording, according to the story, she could NOT just "walk away". They had her trapped inside a 'prison', with no outside contact, no escape, no friend, no help at all.

They started with a little girl who wanted to be a good little Catholic girl, and offered her positive things UNTIL SHE SIGNED AWAY HER SOUL to them, and then she was at their total mercy, alone.

But at least her story was believable, unlike the Bible stories of presposterous occurrences such as Jonah, Noah, Moses, Virgin births, Resurrections, Five Fish feeding thousands, etc .... which children are told are true, and then NOT TOLD ARE UNTRUE.

reply to post by signalfire


Maybe they aren't the ones delusional but you are. For example, I see God's creation all around me, you can't , somehow. So you're delusional.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse

For the director of music. A psalm of David. The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands

Son of man, you are living among a rebellious people. They have eyes to see but do not see and ears to hear but do not hear, for they are a rebellious people.

You're delusional for not believing.

---

If Catholics want to pay for the popes extravagance, so be it. It's their belief.

reply to post by milkyway12


Did you listen to the OP recording?

Like you, I can see The Creation all around me. But, I don't believe the Bible stories. Do I believe in a Supreme Reality that we can't see, or hear, or know, except by its products? Yes.

Recently I read a great analogy given centuries ago by a mystic...and repeated in themes of Deists:
We can't touch the sun, but we feel its rays. We know it exists, and we know how we experience it. In that way, the rays are the "proof on the ground", but the rays ARE NOT THE SUN.

Anyway, would you care to address the problem of credibility as introduced by the case of Sister Charlotte? And how it relates to the credibility of Bible stories? Personally, I believe a concept and worship of any sort of "thinking, emotional, person-type overseer watching every move we make" is shallow and dangerous, and the product of childish thinking.

Her story might be true. But it also might be a good money making schtick for her to tell a negative Catholic story and get all the anti-Catholics to lap it up and pay to hear about it. It could go either way. Just don't know ...

reply to post by milkyway12


I see 'creation' all around me. I don't pretend to know what created it. You do.

Pretend being the operative word here.

The only difference between people sitting on church pews praying to an unseen entity and others strapping on bombs and killing for their god is one of degree.

Again, religionistas are delusional. Sorry for the cognitive dissonance. That feeling you're getting, a mix of anger and self righteous indignation? That's the reaction you're having to being lied to for most of your life.

reply to post by wildtimes


Was she locked indoors 24/7? Was she allowed outdoors at all and was there barbed wire surrounding the compound?

I've visited monasteries. They're not in lockdown. Her prison was of her own doing but most of it was mental.

reply to post by FlyersFan

Hi, FF! I'm so glad you dropped in.

Are you familiar with this claim of hers? It was quite moving and delivered in a way that "sold me" - it wasn't until after I listened that I looked into her credibility. I recall you once mentioned you have some convent experience, did you not? I'd like to know more about what it was like;
how much variation there is between the different convents of the same Order, and between different Orders.

Maybe this particular place was as horrible as she said; but it was an isolated extreme?
As I listened, I thought I was hearing a Congressional testimony - it wasn't until after hearing it that I read she was an itinerant speaker at Pentecostal services. I can certainly see how she might easily have convinced people who didn't bother to look into it further. Scary.

Originally posted by wildtimes
Certainly the RCC has committed horrible things; this IS PUBLIC KNOWLEDGE, and proven. So, it doesn't take much to take Charlotte''s story at face value. The things she describes mimick the Inquisition's Torture Chambers, the witch hunts, the torture of myriad people.......which ARE TRUE. So, how do we discern?

Well, part of it is discerning what the person's motivation might be, determining whether facts support what they're claiming, and what their credibility might be. Since I don't watch videos, I don't know what the specific things being claimed in it are, but from my previous readings, it was fairly well along the lines of typical anti-Catholic fantasies that have never been shown to be accurate.

Yes, the church has done terrible things over the centuries, but it is nothing like what its more rabid opponents like to paint. I've done a fair amount of research into the Inquisitions, for example, and the facts bear little resemblance to what is claimed. Because the Spanish and Roman Inquisitions were open courts, not secret ones, there is actually quite a lot of documentation, which the Vatican has published and is available for research.

Torture? Yes, horrific, but it was limited to 15 minutes and could only be done two times (and it was rarely done twice.) Any amount of torture is horrible, of course, but the Hollywood version of someone stretched out on a rack for days on end? Fiction.

Millions killed? Not even close -- the records, as well as all credible non-anti-Catholic sources, indicate that the number is less than 10,000. One person is too many, of course, but I've seen some people swear that 200 million were killed in the Inquisitions, even after I pointed out that that is more than the entire population of Europe at the time. Who needs facts, when we've an agenda to further?

Because it was both professional and efficient, the Spanish Inquisition kept very good records. Vast archives are filled with them. These documents were kept secret, so there was no reason for scribes to do anything but accurately record every action of the Inquisition. They are a goldmine for modern historians who have plunged greedily into them. Thus far, the fruits of that research have made one thing abundantly clear – the myth of the Spanish Inquisition has nothing at all to do with the real thing. (Source)

There has long existed a deep anti-Catholic stratum in the United States, usually overlooked in favour of other bigotry (the Ku Klux Klan, for example, is noted for its hatred of minorities, but they're also one of the largest anti-Catholic groups in the country) which gives credibility to people like Charlotte Keckler and Alberto Rivera that they normally wouldn't merit.

reply to post by signalfire


Yes, she was locked indoors, received no communication from the outside, including her family. They had made a contract with the convent signing over ALL of their property to the church, joyfully. She says there were babies born in the convent that were deformed, premature, suffocated, etc. She was told she would never see her family again ever, but as long as she did her "penances" she could remove 30 days of purgatory for herself, as well as release the souls of those she loved whom had already passed.

reply to post by adjensen

This wasn't a video - it's a recorded testimony. The picture stays the same as in the OP link the whole time.
But, there are transcripts of it as well.
The Sister Charlotte Keckler Story The Horrors Deep Within The Church Of Rome – Cloistered Nuns – Starved, Hard Labor, Forced Sex, Tortured, Murdered -Babies & Cloistered Nuns –

On the site linked, there are reviews and notes and so forth before you get to the transcript (scroll down for it)...

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by signalfire

 

Yes, she was locked indoors, received no communication from the outside, including her family. They had made a contract with the convent signing over ALL of their property to the church, joyfully.

One of my aunts (well, my wife's aunt) is a retired nun, and I've talked to her about her experiences as a novice and postulate, which would have been about the same timeframe as Keckler (maybe a little later) and they were neither locked indoors or kept apart from their family. Yes, it is a sequestered community, but they could visit their families and write and receive letters.

As for signing over all their property, she was an 18 year old, so she had nothing to speak of. And still doesn't, to this day -- she has a few changes of clothes, some pictures and small mementos from family and former students, and that's it. I send her a gift card for her birthday every year so that she and her fellow sisters can go to the Dairy Queen for an ice cream, and she thinks that's the greatest thing ever.

She's one of the richest people I know. I love spending time with her.

"Sister Charlotte" claims that they did succeed in investigating Mexican convents of the order, and that they are now open to the public as museums.
Sounds from her description like it would be to visit a concentration camp (which my husband has done). When I was working as a psychotherapist, our agency went to the Glore Psychiatric Hospital museum north of St Jospeh, Missouri and we were shown the devices used - waterboarding, locked into coffin-type cages, etc. - as well as things like the "stomach contents" taken from a deceased patient suffering from Pica - the impulse to eat non-food - which was full of nearly 1500 sharp objects

The catholic church has a long history of placing women in a subservient place......
The Nunneries of the middle ages had childrens skulls dug out from them....why should it have stopped ever since?
Who would ever know?
Meanwhile, the many other sins the catholic church has committed dont do much to detract from the testimony do they?
The catholic Church is just another evil thing like the mafia, the goverment, the corporations.....