Daniel; The stone and the statue

For information;

The story of the interpretation of the dream deserves separate treatment, and will probably get it in due course.
In the meantime, the next planned thread in this series will be on the "burning, fiery furnace".

reply to post by DISRAELI


My penciled-in speculation thus far. There is more devil in the details though, pun intended. To a degree, much like scripture itself, prophecy also has layered meaning. Part of which being God's foreknowledge that the history of His people would be inclined to repeat itself in certain circumstances. Im on my Phone as my laptop has been in virus repair since last week and probably won't get back until end of this week...boo. Anyway, my point is that I can't make a proper reply using the tiny phone keyboard...lol, phone screen not convenient for serious topic discussion. Are you familiar with the history of ancient israel & it's ultimate fall? Are you familiar with Ephraim & the writings of the major & minor OT prophets discussing the fate of Ephraim? Ephraim is very important to understand & be familiar with by those in a covenant with Christ.

Originally posted by stupid girl
Are you familiar with the history of ancient israel & it's ultimate fall? Are you familiar with Ephraim & the writings of the major & minor OT prophets discussing the fate of Ephraim?

I was very familiar with History long before I was familiar with Theology.
So yes, from both angles.

reply to post by DISRAELI


Very good! A delight to know this. Many do not have much retained knowledge of world history, as most have an aversion to the subject altogether. To even begIn the endeavor of working out Prophetic scripture, it is an absolute that you must also have a foundational Knowledge of historical events. Otherwise you are just trying to make the information fit your own limited perspective. I am still using my phone in lieu of my laptop so please bear with my random grammatical errors.
I have been given the Grace to understand a few things, but it has been made very clear that I am not to be a stumbling block for others. Sometimes the reason people develop a closer relationship and deeper understanding of God is because they are trying to figure out something in the Bible. During the process additional perspective is gained. One thing I can share is that the Bible was written from God's perspective however, we read it from a human perspective, on top of that, it is also from our own personal perspective, which is entirely subjective. Unlike God, Who never changes.
I am curious on your take of Ephraim. And yes, the third kingdom of the statue in the dream is Greece, it is no other. MedoPersia is the second kingdom, the one of silver. Greece and MedoPersia are also represented to Daniel as a feuding ram & goat. The ram is first & has 2 horns (MedoPersia) and the goat originally has only one huge horn (Alexander the great/Greece) which is broken & 4 distinctive horns rise in its place. The 4 horns are the division of Alexander's empire 1. Macedon & Greece (Antipater & Cassander) 2. Thrace & Asia Minor (Lysimachus) 3. Syria (Seleucus) 4. Judea & Egypt (Ptolemy)

reply to post by stupid girl

My take on Ephraim?
Probably dominated by the historical perspective.
One of the dominant tribes in the old northern kingdom of Israel, after the division.
Possibly the dominant tribe in the old religious federation in the time of Judges-certainly the home of Shiloh and Bethel
So prophetic criticism of the kingdom of Israel tends to use the name of Ephraim as a synonym.

The historical Ephraim got taken into exile by the Assyrians- would have been settled perhaps somewhere in what is now northern Iraq and Iran, probably intermarried with the locals and forgot their culture.
[Edit; Actually, this is over-simplified. Some probably remained behind and became part of the ancestry of the Samaritans]

Post-exile, I can see a couple of places (the Ezekiel Temple re-building, and Zechariah chs 9-10) where Ephraim is joined with Judah in the restoration of the old kingdoms.I don't see much else off-hand.

I know the name of Ephraim is missing from the list of tribes in Revelation ch7, along with the name of Dan.
I suspect this is because of the shrines at Bethel and Dan. They are replaced by the names of Joseph and Levi, which have overtones of faithfulness.

hey, you two...Ephraim...yes.....great britain.....no?....that makes Manasas.........

Originally posted by GBP/JPY
hey, you two...Ephraim...yes.....great britain.....no?....that makes Manasas.........

You're getting warm.

Who was the older brother & who was the younger?
Which one received the larger blessing?

Joseph fed his entire family, even though he was first ostracized by them. His two sons were "grafted" into the tribe of Israel through the consummation of their Hebrew father's marriage to a gentile woman.
Joseph received a double-portion of his father's blessing, but it was actually given to his two sons. Joseph was blessed, but the two sons were to manifest that destiny.
History tends to repeat itself, but those in Christ have been greatly blessed to have ancient Israel as our guide in what mistakes to be aware of. But we have still repeated many of them nonetheless.

Originally posted by stupid girl

Originally posted by GBP/JPY
hey, you two...Ephraim...yes.....great britain.....no?....that makes Manasas.........

You're getting warm.

Who was the older brother & who was the younger?
Which one received the larger blessing?

Joseph fed his entire family, even though he was first ostracized by them. His two sons were "grafted" into the tribe of Israel through the consummation of their Hebrew father's marriage to a gentile woman.
Joseph received a double-portion of his father's blessing, but it was actually given to his two sons. Joseph was blessed, but the two sons were to manifest that destiny.
History tends to repeat itself, but those in Christ have been greatly blessed to have ancient Israel as our guide in what mistakes to be aware of. But we have still repeated many of them nonetheless.

Hehehe....that is so true!

How many times when you were a baby christian did you read the scriptures and think to yourself, "man, those idiots."

And then about a decade later, realized that I am just like those idiots

reply to post by radpetey


Mea culpa.
As I've grown closer to Truth, the depth of scripture in its layers of parallelisms among God's people throughout history is staggering.
We start out pure and grow more corrupt through the passing of time as we allow the infiltration of other cultures & belief systems to inculcate God's Truth. Ancient Israel did so after God's instruction at Sinai and Christians have done so since God's re-instruction through Jesus. As Christians, we have no excuse because we have the recorded history of ancient Israel to examine, in addition to Jesus' explanation of where our brothers went wrong and what should be done as right, plus a double-portion of prosperity and time to fullness.
Even though separated by millennia, both houses of Jacob have fallen for the seductions of Babylon and committed adultery.

That is why we are told that no one is good, not one. We are all sinners and in need of salvation. We have been shown time and time again that we cannot do it on our own, from Eden, to the ark, to Moses, to David, to exile, to Jesus, to now. God is truly thorough in His justice and merciful in His patience, as He allows His creation to attempt every angle to justify our choice in the Garden at the beginning of time. Like stubborn children, we had to figure out ourselves that He is always right & truly has our best interests at heart.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by stupid girl

 

I know the name of Ephraim is missing from the list of tribes in Revelation ch7, along with the name of Dan.
I suspect this is because of the shrines at Bethel and Dan. They are replaced by the names of Joseph and Levi, which have overtones of faithfulness.

edit on 17-2-2013 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

Joseph represents Ephraim.
I don't know yet why Dan does not get sealed. But Dan does have a gate in the new kingdom. Dan is represented on the other side, so to speak. But as we currently culminate this age of creation, something is going on with Dan that I haven't been allowed to understand yet. But i also have not made a specific endeavor to work it it out either, as my efforts are elsewhere at the moment.

reply to post by stupid girl

I know that Joseph stands for Ephraim; my point was about what happens to the names.
The fact that the name of Ephraim is missing helps to explain the absence of Dan.

Briefly, the absence of the names of Ephraim and Dan is accounted for by the fact that they both hosted the "calf" images of Jeroboam. Hence they are names indicating infidelity.
They are replaced by two names which indicate faithfulness.
Levi indicates faithfullness because of the way Phineas stood with Moses in the fight against idolatry in Numbers.
The fidelity of Joseph is brought out in the story of Potiphar's wife.

So it is not just that one tribe is missing, but that two names of unfaithfulness have been replaced by two names of faithfulness.

Daniels dream and the stone statue:

Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

Gold. Babylon: Nebuchadnezzar.

The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings.

Silver. Media-Persian Empire: Cyrus the Great.

And behold another beast, a second like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

Bronce. The third empire was Greece: Alexander the Great.

I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads.

Iron. The Roman Empire. Gaius Julius Caesar.

After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

People think that the 4th beast in Daniels dream is the same as described in revelation 13:1.
But the 4th beast in Daniel only had one head.

Revelation 13:1

13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

reply to post by spy66

On your last point, perhaps it is better to identify the Revelation Beast, on its first appearance, with "human authority", more like the overall statue in this vision.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by spy66

 

On your last point, perhaps it is better to identify the Revelation Beast, on its first appearance, with "human authority", more like the overall statue in this vision.

The 4th beast of Danials dream is a beast with 10 horns and iron teeth. The legs of the statue is of iron and with 10 toes. The 10 toes of the statue are the 10 horns in daniels 4th beast.

The first beast of revelation 13:1 is going to appear out of the 10 horns in Daniels 4th beast.
Daniel 7:8

8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn,

The 10 horns constitute the deviding of the Roman empire. "The formation of the new midle aged europe". Rome was devided in the year 476AD.


And Daniel 7:24 say.

And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

The 10 kingdoms are:

1.Anglosaxons.
2.Franks.
3.Suevi.
4.Visigoths.
5.Burgundians.
6.Alamanni.
7.Ostrogoths.
8.Lombards.
9.Heruli.
10.Vandals.

All these kingdoms had to be present before the little horn in Daniel 7:8 could come up among them. So the little horn had to have come after 476AD.

Daniel 7:8

I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots:

Three of the 10 kingdoms above were plucked.

1. 493 AD the Heruli.
2. 534 AD the Vandals.
3. 538 AD the Ostrogoths.

This is very interesting.

He who now hinders must hinder until he be taken out of the way. What obstacle is there but the Roman State.
The falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kindoms, shal introduce antichrist.........

Tertullian. "on the resurrection" chapter 24. 25.

While the Caesars held imperial power, it was impossible for the predicted antichrist to arise....on the fall of the Caesars he would arise.

H.Grattan Guinness

Out of the ruins of the Roman Empire there arose a new order of states whose central point was the Papal See.

1. The see of the bishop of Rome.

The Holy See

The Holy See (Latin: Sancta Sedes, Italian: Santa Sede) is the episcopal jurisdiction of the Catholic Church in Rome. The primacy of Rome makes its bishop the worldwide leader of the church, commonly known as the Pope. Since Rome is the preeminent episcopal see of the Church, it contains the central government of the church, including various agencies essential to administration. Diplomatically, the Holy See acts and speaks for the whole Roman Catholic Church. It is also recognized by other subjects of international law as a sovereign entity, headed by the Pope, with which diplomatic relations can be maintained."[1][2]

The above fits in perfectly with the birth of the beast in revelation 13:1.

13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

The name of the beasts is the Vicar Of Christ. This beast proclaims to be God on earth. The most high.

reply to post by spy66


The perennial problem that I have with identifying the Catholic Church as the Beast is this;
Most people who make that claim also want to identify the same church with the Harlot.
But the two claims can't both be true, because the Beast and the Harlot are two distinct things.
At the beginning of ch.17, the Harlot is resting on the support of the Beast, which implies a distinction.
Then at the end of the chapter the Beast is destroying the Harlot, which makes it certain.

So if you insist on making that church the Beast, who is your candidate for the Harlot, which must be different?

I think the "Rome is the Harlot" line is an over-simplification- it took me four or five threads to examine ch.17 properly.
But the Harlot is associated with idolatry, so it does make more sense to me that the Harlot should be based on religious power while the Beast is based on secular power.
Then the uncertain relationship between them is perfectly understandable.

reply to post by DISRAELI


Revelation 13:1

13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Revelation 17:3

3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

If you can see. The beast in revelation 13:1 is the exact same beast as described in revelation 17:3.

Revelation 17 is talking about the heads of blasphemy. The woman is the chrurch that carries the name of blasphemy. She is not riding the beast, she is the 7 heads of the beast. Read revelation 13:1

EDIT:
Since we are not really talking about a animal. You could say that the woman "the church" is riding on the power given to it by the US and its allies. "The body of the beast"

This image confuses people.


The only diffence between the beast in 13:1 compare to what is described in 17:3 is: A woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy. This should actually ring a bell about who this woman is.

The woman is the church. Which church? A church that uses scarlet colour.

Which church uses the name of blasphemy? The Catholic Church.

google the catholic church and you will see. how it fits in with chapter 17.

More verses you read from chapter17 and compare. The more clear it becomes that it is the Catholic Church capter 17 is describing as the whore.

reply to post by spy66

What you are putting is the argument for the Catholic church being the Harlot.
Since the Beast destroys the Harlot, the Beast has to be something different.
Why not simply accept the separation and make the distinction?

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by spy66

 

What you are putting is the argument for the Catholic church being the Harlot.
Since the Beast destroys the Harlot, the Beast has to be something different.
Why not simply accept the separation and make the distinction?

The beast is not a animal. The beast is not a single body with 7 heads. The whole beast is a coalition between governments. The beast is a system that works in unity for a common goal.

The whore is not really sitting on the beast any more is she?

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

I hope you know what a woman means within the bible. It does mean the Church when spoken like this. And there is only one major Church that sits on seven mautains. That is the Catholic Church. You can even check that for your self if you don't believe it.


Revelation 17:15 As you can see here. The beat is not a animal or a single body with 7 heads.

15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

revelation 17:16

16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

I dont know why you have problems accepting this. New coalitions are made all the time. A coalition is a agreement between governments on a common goal. And they will try to destroy the church. We are very capable of doing this.

The beast in rev 17 will form a new coalition among them selvs, and go after the Church.

Originally posted by spy66
. The whole beast is a coalition between governments. The beast is a system that works in unity for a common goal. ..
A coalition is a agreement between governments on a common goal. And they will try to destroy the church. We are very capable of doing this...
The beast in rev 17 will form a new coalition among them selvs, and go after the Church.
]

This is more-or-less the line that I was trying to present. so we've worked our way round to agreement after all.

My current understanding is...
...that the identity of 'these kings' in Daniel's interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's dream...
...is established by reference to what 'days' God 'set up' a Kingdom.

Daniel 2:44 "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.”

The parallel vision of specifies...
Daniel 7:7-8 "...and it had ten horns. 8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots:"

"And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them..." Daniel 7:24

So there are a total of eleven (11)...
...and depending on how you understand 'among them' and 'after them'...
...and when history sees the Greek empire ending and the Roman empire beginning...
...here is the list of Roman 'kings'...

Pompey 106-48BC
1 Julius Caesar 49-44BC
2 Augustus 31BC-14AD
3 Tiberius 14-37AD
4 Caligula (aka Gaius) 37-41AD
5 Claudius 41-54AD
6 Nero 54-68AD
7 Galba 68-69AD
8 Otho 69AD
9 Vitellius 69AD
10 Vespasian 69-79AD
11 Titus 79-81AD
Domitian 81-96AD.

The Kingdom that God 'set up' during the 'days' of 'these kings'...
...is also depicted as "a stone was cut out without hands" Daniel 2:34...
...that causes the kingdoms to become...
..."...like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away. "Daniel 2:35

Jesus used this motif when He said...
Luke 20:17-18 "What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner? 18 Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder."


So Daniel 2 sets the historical scope of the Book of Daniel...
...that its message extends to the time of Jesus and the Apostles...
...and it follows that the parallel dreams/visions are also concerned with this time frame.

Daniel 8 only covers the historical periods of the Medes/Persians and Greece...
...concluding with Antiochius Epiphanes.