The dream of Nebuchadnezzar, in the second chapter of Daniel, is a drama with two actors- a statue and a stone.
The drama is a way of illustrating the central theme of this book; that is, the clash between the will of God and the over-bearing self-esteem of a human authority that thinks it’s God.
The king’s dream is a visual demonstration of what happens when they meet.

The first thing the king sees is a great “image”, in the form of a human statue.
This image has “exceeding brightness” and the appearance is frightening.
Both features, the brightness and the awesomeness, suggest divinity.
The head of the statue is made from fine gold, but the lower levels are less valuable.
In sequence downwards, they are made from silver, bronze, iron, and finally iron mixed with clay.

The sequence of four metals goes back to the Greek poet Hesiod.
He described how human life had declined from the idyllic age of Gold, through the age of Silver and the still-remembered age of Bronze to the age of Iron, which was the condition of his own time.
So he was the one who invented “the Golden Age”, as the term for that time in the past which we believe to be so much better than the one we’re living in.

In Daniel’s interpretation, the head of gold represents the king himself.
The God of heaven has given him the kingdom, power, and authority over all the men and living things of the world.
That agrees with what Paul says, that “there is no authority except from God” (Romans ch13 v1).
Knowing the history, it seems very odd that all this praise should be going to Nebuchadnezzar, who destroyed the Temple at Jerusalem and took its people captive (and was not, in fact, the ruler of the entire world).
But the writer of Daniel is not focussed on the wrongdoings of Nebuchadnezzar the man.
This is Nebuchadnezzar as the model of ideal kingship.
Daniel is much more interested in showing the contrast with the last of the kingdoms.
The head of gold stands for what kingship is supposed to be-
The feet of clay stand for what kingship becomes.

If Nebuchadnezzar is the head of gold, what are the other kingdoms in the sequence?
His own kingdom was Babylon, of course.
There’s another sequence of four kingdoms in the seventh chapter, beginning with the winged lion which was the great icon of Babylon.
History suggests, and the imagery of the seventh chapter seems to confirm, that the next two kingdoms should be the empire of the Medes and Persians and the empire of Alexander.

But what of the fourth kingdom?
We know two things about that kingdom.
Firstly, there is the strength of iron. This is a kingdom which can crush all the others.
Later, in the feet and toes of the body, there’s the weakness of clay, which combines with the strength and undermines it.
So the fourth kingdom ends as a divided kingdom.

One possibility is that the fourth kingdom, like so much else in Daniel, points towards the infamous Antiochus Epiphanes and his assault on the Jewish religion..
We can certainly see a structural weakness in his kingdom, which was an attempt to “marry” the culture of the old Persian empire with the Greek culture of the heirs of Alexander.
Never in his career, though, did he come anywhere near crushing the other kingdoms of the world.
In any case his kingdom was not really a “fourth kingdom” in its own right; it was just a fragment of the realm of Alexander.

Commentators in the academic world like to identify the fourth kingdom with Alexander, which overcomes the objections I’ve just mentioned.
But that theory has other weaknesses, which I won’t have space to consider at this point.

It has to be said that the Roman empire is a much better match for the description.
Historically a new empire, crushing previous kingdoms all round the Mediterranean.
A structural weakness can be found in the way the later empire fell naturally into Latin-speaking and Greek-speaking portions, which became a political fault-line.
And of course the Roman empire did fall apart, in the end , so there’s the ultimate division.

Whatever the meaning of the individual kingdoms, the statue which contains them all has to stand for human authority in general, which comes close to being worshipped and treated as a god in its own right.
So when the statue falls, it is human authority which has been crushed.

In the king’s dream, the statue has an adversary, the second actor in this drama.
There is a stone “not cut by human hands”, which means that it comes from God.
The fact that the stone is “cut” means that it’s a building stone, taken from a quarry, not a pebble picked up from the ground.
That stone is able to crush the statue, absolutely, and then grow into a great mountain which fills the earth.

In a well-known verse in the Psalms, the building stone is a reference to God’s people Israel;
“The stone which the builders rejected has become the head of the corner-
“This is the Lord’s doing; it is marvellous in our eyes”. Psalm 118 vvv22-23
The context is thanksgiving for preservation from their enemies.
Isaiah talks about the corner-stone, the “sure foundation”, which the Lord lays in Zion (Isaiah ch28 v16) and also calls the Lord himself a stone of “stumbling” to the unrepentant, who will “fall and be broken”- Isaiah ch8 v14.
While the “great mountain” which the stone becomes surely connects with the imagery of Mount Zion
So the message of this dream seems to be that the human kingdoms of this world are overthrown and replaced by God’s kingdom, God’s people, which then fills the earth.

When is this message fulfilled?
If the fourth kingdom is that of Antiochus Epiphanes, we can see the stone in the rebellion of Judas Maccabeus, “the hammer”, which knocked over its power in Jerusalem.
But that was not the end of kingdoms in general.

If the fourth kingdom is Rome, we can see the stone in the Kingdom established by Christ.

We don’t find this dream-image in the New Testament, but we do find claims resting upon the other “building-stone” quotations.
Jesus quotes the words about “the stone which the builders rejected”, when he’s telling the parable of the Vineyard.
In this case the previously “rejected” are the gentiles, who may be brought into and become God’s people in place of the Jews.
In Luke’s version of the story, he also brings in the reference to the “stone of stumbling”- Luke ch20 vv17-18.
1 Peter, meanwhile, brings them together and applies all three of them to Christ himself- 1 Peter ch2 vv6-8.
Then believers are to be living stones, adding themselves to the corner stone (and perhaps this is how the stone grows into a great mountain which fills the earth).
Both ways of taking the “stone” imagery are implicitly putting forward the Kingdom of God under Christ as “the kingdom which will never be destroyed”.

If the fourth kingdom is Rome, and the kingdom of Christ is the stone, there’s a case for claiming that the stone has already knocked over the statue.
At least we can see the defeat of the persecutors and the victory of Constantine as the overthrow of the pagan version of the Roman empire.
But that, in turn, was still not the end of kingdoms in general.

We have certainly seen the division(A.D. 293 onwards) and the final fragmentation(A.D. 450 onwards) of the Roman empire.
So the only part of the dream-image which could represent the current state of the world is the state of division reflected in the “ten toes”.
In which case the event at the end of this dream would also be pointing forwards, to a later climax which would see a more decisive overthrow of human authority.

The legs and toes;

In modern times, we find people making a study of this image, and trying to match the “two legs” and the “ten toes” with states in the modern world.
But is there any value in this kind of speculation?

Taking the “two legs” first; the speculators will normally agree that the “iron” kingdom represents the Roman empire.
Now the Roman empire fell naturally into two distinct halves, the Latin-speaking portion and the Greek-speaking portion.
From the time of Diocletian onwards, it was found convenient to govern the two portions separately, so that each half of the empire frequently had its own emperor, though in theory they would be ruling together.
Surely we need look no further to find the two “legs” of the Roman kingdom?

Then the Roman empire disintegrated altogether, and surely that is what is meant by the “ten toes”?
I’m not convinced that we need to identify and count up ten separate units.
“Ten” is the number that signifies completeness. So a division into “ten” may mean simply a state of division which covers the whole world.
And that is precisely what we see around us.
We are living in the state of fragmentation implied by the “ten toes”.

and that theory of the mix being alien and human genes mixed being the clay and iron in the feet .....has no backing in Scripture....? someone should research that since we're like in the days of Noah possibly. meaning mixing with the seed of man......
I'm curious about that alien mix....that doesn't want to incorporate with each other....or won't hold together

Originally posted by GBP/JPY
and that theory of the mix being alien and human genes mixed being the clay and iron in the feet .....has no backing in Scripture....? someone should research that since we're like in the days of Noah possibly. meaning mixing with the seed of man......
I'm curious about that alien mix....that doesn't want to incorporate with each other....or won't hold together

I have come to only one conclusion of which I am absolutely certain: No one can understand with absolute certainty unless they've experienced a divine vision of revelation.
While I am currently and actively in the middle of an endeavor seeking wisdom and understanding on Daniel & Revelation and God's Truth to be discerned from it, what I have learned most thus far is that God will not reveal anything until you empty your cup of opinion and speculation and seek His wisdom and understanding for His purposes, and not yours.
It is His to give to whomever He chooses and in seeking such, we must come to terms with the possibility that what we seek may never be revealed to us. The greatest of deceivers is the intent of our own heart..."All the ways of a man are clean in his own sight, But the LORD weighs the motives."

Even though Daniel actually had a divine vision, he still had to seek the Lord in humility for over 3 weeks before the meaning of what he saw was explained to him. And even then, he still didn't really comprehend what he was being told.

One of the other few things of which I am absolutely certain, is that the scriptures are written to have a layered meaning. That is one of the reasons why there are so many "interpretations" of the same verse. The other reason is because it is human nature to ponder things from our own perspective and understanding. Put those two together and....
....well, look how many denominations have been started because someone decided they figured out something that had been previously misunderstood or misinterpreted.

What I feel comfortable in my understanding thus far is-
1. DNA is somehow involved in this whole debacle, insomuch as his seed and her seed and creation and Genesis 6 and so on and so forth. DNA is a fact, and I understand that it plays an important role in all of this, but anything else is speculation. Such as it being my speculation that the mark of the beast will somehow affect human DNA.
2. Although the 10 toes of clay and iron could possibly be related to the DNA angle through layered meaning, their intention in the dream was to be representative of kingdoms and leaders, just as the preceding sections of the statue.
3. The preceding sections of the statue were a degrading sequence of glory, power and might, ie: Gold, Silver, Bronze, Iron, Iron & Clay. Meaning, the sheer domination and utter control of populations of men significant at their respective eras, declined. Rome may have had a larger "empire" insomuch as area, but rule was carried out in a fragmented fashion. The Roman Empire was strong as iron at its apex, but the kingdom itself was prone to easy degradation from within among the many sub-leaders that were necessary to manage such a large area of rule. Plus, much of Rome's Empire wasn't even Roman, so the cultural unity of the Empire was never truly of one cohesive mind, purpose and endeavor.
Nebuchadnezzar was utterly totalitarian in his kingship. There was no dissent in the ranks of the Babylonian Empire because the Babylonian Empire was Nebuchadnezzar, period. Babylon had a much greater influence on its people and those it conquered, thus Babylon was wholly Babylonian. Even the exiled remnant of Israel were known as Babylonian Jews.
4. So the main point being made with the toes of clay and iron in which the seed of men will not adhere together, simply means that after the Roman Empire, there will be many strong kingdoms of great influence and power and many nations without such power, and there would never again be a coming together of an Empire with strength, glory, and cohesiveness of mind that would ever compare to the Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Greek or Roman, which were true "Empires" in every sense of the term, albeit degrading ones as mankind progressed, increased and further divided itself.

England and America are strong, but when their citizens intermarry with those from third world countries, there is no blending of national powers. The strong will not "cleave" to the "weak". The nations will stay divided amongst themselves. There will be no more "Empires" such as those in the earlier history of man.
Even when they all try to come together as a global order in the end, they will still come together as separate and unique individual cultures, and even then their effort will only last a few years.

Originally posted by stupid girl
4. So the main point being made with the toes of clay and iron in which the seed of men will not adhere together, simply means that after the Roman Empire, there will be many strong kingdoms of great influence and power and many nations without such power, and there would never again be a coming together of an Empire with strength, glory, and cohesiveness of mind ... The strong will not "cleave" to the "weak". The nations will stay divided amongst themselves. There will be no more "Empires" such as those in the earlier history of man.
Even when they all try to come together as a global order in the end, they will still come together as separate and unique individual cultures, and even then their effort will only last a few years.

I think this is a very good way of putting it.
I agree with you that there is no reason to see "alien genes" in the picture.
Thank you for those comments.

Originally posted by stupid girl

Originally posted by GBP/JPY
and that theory of the mix being alien and human genes mixed being the clay and iron in the feet .....has no backing in Scripture....? someone should research that since we're like in the days of Noah possibly. meaning mixing with the seed of man......
I'm curious about that alien mix....that doesn't want to incorporate with each other....or won't hold together

I have come to only one conclusion of which I am absolutely certain: No one can understand with absolute certainty unless they've experienced a divine vision of revelation.
While I am currently and actively in the middle of an endeavor seeking wisdom and understanding on Daniel & Revelation and God's Truth to be discerned from it, what I have learned most thus far is that God will not reveal anything until you empty your cup of opinion and speculation and seek His wisdom and understanding for His purposes, and not yours.
It is His to give to whomever He chooses and in seeking such, we must come to terms with the possibility that what we seek may never be revealed to us. The greatest of deceivers is the intent of our own heart..."All the ways of a man are clean in his own sight, But the LORD weighs the motives."

Even though Daniel actually had a divine vision, he still had to seek the Lord in humility for over 3 weeks before the meaning of what he saw was explained to him. And even then, he still didn't really comprehend what he was being told.

One of the other few things of which I am absolutely certain, is that the scriptures are written to have a layered meaning. That is one of the reasons why there are so many "interpretations" of the same verse. The other reason is because it is human nature to ponder things from our own perspective and understanding. Put those two together and....
....well, look how many denominations have been started because someone decided they figured out something that had been previously misunderstood or misinterpreted.

What I feel comfortable in my understanding thus far is-
1. DNA is somehow involved in this whole debacle, insomuch as his seed and her seed and creation and Genesis 6 and so on and so forth. DNA is a fact, and I understand that it plays an important role in all of this, but anything else is speculation. Such as it being my speculation that the mark of the beast will somehow affect human DNA.
2. Although the 10 toes of clay and iron could possibly be related to the DNA angle through layered meaning, their intention in the dream was to be representative of kingdoms and leaders, just as the preceding sections of the statue.
3. The preceding sections of the statue were a degrading sequence of glory, power and might, ie: Gold, Silver, Bronze, Iron, Iron & Clay. Meaning, the sheer domination and utter control of populations of men significant at their respective eras, declined. Rome may have had a larger "empire" insomuch as area, but rule was carried out in a fragmented fashion. The Roman Empire was strong as iron at its apex, but the kingdom itself was prone to easy degradation from within among the many sub-leaders that were necessary to manage such a large area of rule. Plus, much of Rome's Empire wasn't even Roman, so the cultural unity of the Empire was never truly of one cohesive mind, purpose and endeavor.
Nebuchadnezzar was utterly totalitarian in his kingship. There was no dissent in the ranks of the Babylonian Empire because the Babylonian Empire was Nebuchadnezzar, period. Babylon had a much greater influence on its people and those it conquered, thus Babylon was wholly Babylonian. Even the exiled remnant of Israel were known as Babylonian Jews.
4. So the main point being made with the toes of clay and iron in which the seed of men will not adhere together, simply means that after the Roman Empire, there will be many strong kingdoms of great influence and power and many nations without such power, and there would never again be a coming together of an Empire with strength, glory, and cohesiveness of mind that would ever compare to the Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Greek or Roman, which were true "Empires" in every sense of the term, albeit degrading ones as mankind progressed, increased and further divided itself.

England and America are strong, but when their citizens intermarry with those from third world countries, there is no blending of national powers. The strong will not "cleave" to the "weak". The nations will stay divided amongst themselves. There will be no more "Empires" such as those in the earlier history of man.
Even when they all try to come together as a global order in the end, they will still come together as separate and unique individual cultures, and even then their effort will only last a few years.

Much wisdom and a little humility thrown in to boot!

That was a very good post. And I totally agree with you about the direct revelation.

One thing I have gleaned over the years is that God's eternal purpose is a precious thing;. And he does not just divulge that information to just anyone.

Countless people have tried to figure it out(end time prophecy) over the years, but very few have even touched the surface. Most of the motivation for this quest for prophetic knowledge is simply pride, and the desire to make a whole lot of money through a book deal or what have you.

If you want the goods....it will only cost you your whole life. But believe me....it's worth it!

HE is worth it!!