Daniel; The stone and the statue

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posted on Feb, 11 2013 @ 05:07 PM
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The dream of Nebuchadnezzar, in the second chapter of Daniel, is a drama with two actors- a statue and a stone.
The drama is a way of illustrating the central theme of this book; that is, the clash between the will of God and the over-bearing self-esteem of a human authority that thinks it’s God.
The king’s dream is a visual demonstration of what happens when they meet.

The first thing the king sees is a great “image”, in the form of a human statue.
This image has “exceeding brightness” and the appearance is frightening.
Both features, the brightness and the awesomeness, suggest divinity.
The head of the statue is made from fine gold, but the lower levels are less valuable.
In sequence downwards, they are made from silver, bronze, iron, and finally iron mixed with clay.

The sequence of four metals goes back to the Greek poet Hesiod.
He described how human life had declined from the idyllic age of Gold, through the age of Silver and the still-remembered age of Bronze to the age of Iron, which was the condition of his own time.
So he was the one who invented “the Golden Age”, as the term for that time in the past which we believe to be so much better than the one we’re living in.

In Daniel’s interpretation, the head of gold represents the king himself.
The God of heaven has given him the kingdom, power, and authority over all the men and living things of the world.
That agrees with what Paul says, that “there is no authority except from God” (Romans ch13 v1).
Knowing the history, it seems very odd that all this praise should be going to Nebuchadnezzar, who destroyed the Temple at Jerusalem and took its people captive (and was not, in fact, the ruler of the entire world).
But the writer of Daniel is not focussed on the wrongdoings of Nebuchadnezzar the man.
This is Nebuchadnezzar as the model of ideal kingship.
Daniel is much more interested in showing the contrast with the last of the kingdoms.
The head of gold stands for what kingship is supposed to be-
The feet of clay stand for what kingship becomes.

If Nebuchadnezzar is the head of gold, what are the other kingdoms in the sequence?
His own kingdom was Babylon, of course.
There’s another sequence of four kingdoms in the seventh chapter, beginning with the winged lion which was the great icon of Babylon.
History suggests, and the imagery of the seventh chapter seems to confirm, that the next two kingdoms should be the empire of the Medes and Persians and the empire of Alexander.

But what of the fourth kingdom?
We know two things about that kingdom.
Firstly, there is the strength of iron. This is a kingdom which can crush all the others.
Later, in the feet and toes of the body, there’s the weakness of clay, which combines with the strength and undermines it.
So the fourth kingdom ends as a divided kingdom.

One possibility is that the fourth kingdom, like so much else in Daniel, points towards the infamous Antiochus Epiphanes and his assault on the Jewish religion..
We can certainly see a structural weakness in his kingdom, which was an attempt to “marry” the culture of the old Persian empire with the Greek culture of the heirs of Alexander.
Never in his career, though, did he come anywhere near crushing the other kingdoms of the world.
In any case his kingdom was not really a “fourth kingdom” in its own right; it was just a fragment of the realm of Alexander.

Commentators in the academic world like to identify the fourth kingdom with Alexander, which overcomes the objections I’ve just mentioned.
But that theory has other weaknesses, which I won’t have space to consider at this point.

It has to be said that the Roman empire is a much better match for the description.
Historically a new empire, crushing previous kingdoms all round the Mediterranean.
A structural weakness can be found in the way the later empire fell naturally into Latin-speaking and Greek-speaking portions, which became a political fault-line.
And of course the Roman empire did fall apart, in the end , so there’s the ultimate division.

Whatever the meaning of the individual kingdoms, the statue which contains them all has to stand for human authority in general, which comes close to being worshipped and treated as a god in its own right.
So when the statue falls, it is human authority which has been crushed.

In the king’s dream, the statue has an adversary, the second actor in this drama.
There is a stone “not cut by human hands”, which means that it comes from God.
The fact that the stone is “cut” means that it’s a building stone, taken from a quarry, not a pebble picked up from the ground.
That stone is able to crush the statue, absolutely, and then grow into a great mountain which fills the earth.

In a well-known verse in the Psalms, the building stone is a reference to God’s people Israel;
“The stone which the builders rejected has become the head of the corner-
“This is the Lord’s doing; it is marvellous in our eyes”. Psalm 118 vvv22-23
The context is thanksgiving for preservation from their enemies.
Isaiah talks about the corner-stone, the “sure foundation”, which the Lord lays in Zion (Isaiah ch28 v16) and also calls the Lord himself a stone of “stumbling” to the unrepentant, who will “fall and be broken”- Isaiah ch8 v14.
While the “great mountain” which the stone becomes surely connects with the imagery of Mount Zion
So the message of this dream seems to be that the human kingdoms of this world are overthrown and replaced by God’s kingdom, God’s people, which then fills the earth.

When is this message fulfilled?
If the fourth kingdom is that of Antiochus Epiphanes, we can see the stone in the rebellion of Judas Maccabeus, “the hammer”, which knocked over its power in Jerusalem.
But that was not the end of kingdoms in general.

If the fourth kingdom is Rome, we can see the stone in the Kingdom established by Christ.

We don’t find this dream-image in the New Testament, but we do find claims resting upon the other “building-stone” quotations.
Jesus quotes the words about “the stone which the builders rejected”, when he’s telling the parable of the Vineyard.
In this case the previously “rejected” are the gentiles, who may be brought into and become God’s people in place of the Jews.
In Luke’s version of the story, he also brings in the reference to the “stone of stumbling”- Luke ch20 vv17-18.
1 Peter, meanwhile, brings them together and applies all three of them to Christ himself- 1 Peter ch2 vv6-8.
Then believers are to be living stones, adding themselves to the corner stone (and perhaps this is how the stone grows into a great mountain which fills the earth).
Both ways of taking the “stone” imagery are implicitly putting forward the Kingdom of God under Christ as “the kingdom which will never be destroyed”.

If the fourth kingdom is Rome, and the kingdom of Christ is the stone, there’s a case for claiming that the stone has already knocked over the statue.
At least we can see the defeat of the persecutors and the victory of Constantine as the overthrow of the pagan version of the Roman empire.
But that, in turn, was still not the end of kingdoms in general.

We have certainly seen the division(A.D. 293 onwards) and the final fragmentation(A.D. 450 onwards) of the Roman empire.
So the only part of the dream-image which could represent the current state of the world is the state of division reflected in the “ten toes”.
In which case the event at the end of this dream would also be pointing forwards, to a later climax which would see a more decisive overthrow of human authority.




posted on Feb, 11 2013 @ 06:13 PM
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This thread is a sequel to my thread on Daniel ch1;

Daniel; Let them eat bean-cake

Hopefully this title is less controversial.



posted on Feb, 11 2013 @ 07:11 PM
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The legs and toes;

In modern times, we find people making a study of this image, and trying to match the “two legs” and the “ten toes” with states in the modern world.
But is there any value in this kind of speculation?

Taking the “two legs” first; the speculators will normally agree that the “iron” kingdom represents the Roman empire.
Now the Roman empire fell naturally into two distinct halves, the Latin-speaking portion and the Greek-speaking portion.
From the time of Diocletian onwards, it was found convenient to govern the two portions separately, so that each half of the empire frequently had its own emperor, though in theory they would be ruling together.
Surely we need look no further to find the two “legs” of the Roman kingdom?

Then the Roman empire disintegrated altogether, and surely that is what is meant by the “ten toes”?
I’m not convinced that we need to identify and count up ten separate units.
“Ten” is the number that signifies completeness. So a division into “ten” may mean simply a state of division which covers the whole world.
And that is precisely what we see around us.
We are living in the state of fragmentation implied by the “ten toes”.



posted on Feb, 11 2013 @ 08:03 PM
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This is already been fulfilled. The four beasts are dead. The last beast fell with Rome. NB. Each layer on that statue also represent a Beast. The last Beast of the four fell with Rome.

There is only one left. The one with 7 heads and 10 horns.

In 1929 revelation 13:3 was fulfilled. biblelight.net...
edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 11 2013 @ 08:09 PM
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reply to post by spy66
 

There is certainly more sense in that idea than trying to extend the life of "Rome" indefinitely into the present, as a lot of people do.
What holds me back from complete acceptance is "shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end" (v44), which sounds like kingdoms in general, which hasn't happened yet.

On the other hand again, in ch7 vv11-12, other kingdoms continue after the fourth beast is slain, which does accord more with the fourth beast being historic Rome.



posted on Feb, 11 2013 @ 08:37 PM
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and that theory of the mix being alien and human genes mixed being the clay and iron in the feet .....has no backing in Scripture....? someone should research that since we're like in the days of Noah possibly. meaning mixing with the seed of man......
I'm curious about that alien mix....that doesn't want to incorporate with each other....or won't hold together



posted on Feb, 11 2013 @ 08:42 PM
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reply to post by GBP/JPY
 

To be sure, and two different human races, like Greeks and Persians or Greeks and Romans, would be quite different enough to fit the image.
The word "marriage" in that text reminds me of the way that Alexander deliberately set out to weld his empire together by making his Greek generals marry oriental wives. I shall have to look it up, but I seem to remember something about a mass ceremony.

edit on 11-2-2013 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 11 2013 @ 10:29 PM
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reply to post by DISRAELI
 


Great thread and perspective. The heel is the ends of the loaf.

1 Corinthians 10

And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.

The Heel is Adam on each side of the Church, both Father and Redeemer.

1 Corinthians 15

If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[f]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

Why Adam?

Colossians 1

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[g] your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

The part you are speaking of is the authority that is crushed and handed to the Father.

1 Corinthians 15

20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. 24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[c] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

If you glean all the knowledge that these chapters have to offer, you see why the heel crushes the head of Satan.

14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

The Chief Cornerstone is giving, what the name of Christ implies. We take this name as the love we share with others. If we take the name in vain, we reject the cornerstone of our faith.

Knowledge is better than wealth. You need to take care of wealth. Knowledge takes care of you. Truth sets you free and the highest truth is the Cornerstone of the building. If the Cornerstone is set in place correctly, the building rises to perfection.



posted on Feb, 12 2013 @ 07:10 AM
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Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by spy66
 

There is certainly more sense in that idea than trying to extend the life of "Rome" indefinitely into the present, as a lot of people do.


If you have any doubt about Rome being the Empire in charge today, then look at the very edifices of the Government buildings, our sport stadiums, geez, our foreign policy. The Pax Americana is falling apart.



posted on Feb, 12 2013 @ 08:31 AM
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reply to post by DISRAELI
 


Why are you saying that Revelation doesn't have Daniel's 4 beasts in it? The Satanic empire of 7 heads and 10 horns are these 4 beasts - 4 heads of the leopard (Greece/ the EU = the head of Gold), 1 head for the bear (Russia = body of silver), 1 head for the lion with wings (UK controlling the US eagle =belly of brass), and 1 head for the 4th beast with 10 horns (this head is the 11th horn, the little horn). Add em up, 7 heads, 10 horns.

Daniel 7:




3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another. 4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.

5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.

6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. 8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.


Daniel 2



39 “After you, another kingdom will arise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth. 40 Finally, there will be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron—for iron breaks and smashes everything—and as iron breaks things to pieces, so it will crush and break all the others. 41 Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. 42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.

44 “In the time of those kings, the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed, nor will it be left to another people. It will crush all those kingdoms and bring them to an end, but it will itself endure forever. 45 This is the meaning of the vision of the rock cut out of a mountain, but not by human hands—a rock that broke the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold to pieces.


It says right there, that God is setting up a holy kingdom to destroy this statue/ 7 head, 10 horn beast during the time of the tribulation. Where is this holy kingdom located in Revelation? Right here:

Rev. 4



6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind. 7 And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle. 8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,


These 4 beasts with 6 wings are the holy equivalents of the 4 Satanic empires. Why do they have 6 wings?

Rev. 12


13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.


Remember how the lion with the eagle wings are plucked? These wings are plucked and given to the woman/ the true church as the wilderness to live in - when the empire is partly destroyed, people have a chance to leave the evil system. That's the real rapture. There are 3 sets of these "raptures"/ escaping from Babylon, 3 cycles of Armageddon that set up the holy kingdom after the tribulation.

If anyone is interested, I have a much longer post about this subject here: prophecyandritual.blogspot.com...



posted on Feb, 12 2013 @ 09:46 AM
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Originally posted by GBP/JPY
and that theory of the mix being alien and human genes mixed being the clay and iron in the feet .....has no backing in Scripture....? someone should research that since we're like in the days of Noah possibly. meaning mixing with the seed of man......
I'm curious about that alien mix....that doesn't want to incorporate with each other....or won't hold together


I have come to only one conclusion of which I am absolutely certain: No one can understand with absolute certainty unless they've experienced a divine vision of revelation.
While I am currently and actively in the middle of an endeavor seeking wisdom and understanding on Daniel & Revelation and God's Truth to be discerned from it, what I have learned most thus far is that God will not reveal anything until you empty your cup of opinion and speculation and seek His wisdom and understanding for His purposes, and not yours.
It is His to give to whomever He chooses and in seeking such, we must come to terms with the possibility that what we seek may never be revealed to us. The greatest of deceivers is the intent of our own heart..."All the ways of a man are clean in his own sight, But the LORD weighs the motives."

Even though Daniel actually had a divine vision, he still had to seek the Lord in humility for over 3 weeks before the meaning of what he saw was explained to him. And even then, he still didn't really comprehend what he was being told.

One of the other few things of which I am absolutely certain, is that the scriptures are written to have a layered meaning. That is one of the reasons why there are so many "interpretations" of the same verse. The other reason is because it is human nature to ponder things from our own perspective and understanding. Put those two together and....
....well, look how many denominations have been started because someone decided they figured out something that had been previously misunderstood or misinterpreted.

What I feel comfortable in my understanding thus far is-
1. DNA is somehow involved in this whole debacle, insomuch as his seed and her seed and creation and Genesis 6 and so on and so forth. DNA is a fact, and I understand that it plays an important role in all of this, but anything else is speculation. Such as it being my speculation that the mark of the beast will somehow affect human DNA.
2. Although the 10 toes of clay and iron could possibly be related to the DNA angle through layered meaning, their intention in the dream was to be representative of kingdoms and leaders, just as the preceding sections of the statue.
3. The preceding sections of the statue were a degrading sequence of glory, power and might, ie: Gold, Silver, Bronze, Iron, Iron & Clay. Meaning, the sheer domination and utter control of populations of men significant at their respective eras, declined. Rome may have had a larger "empire" insomuch as area, but rule was carried out in a fragmented fashion. The Roman Empire was strong as iron at its apex, but the kingdom itself was prone to easy degradation from within among the many sub-leaders that were necessary to manage such a large area of rule. Plus, much of Rome's Empire wasn't even Roman, so the cultural unity of the Empire was never truly of one cohesive mind, purpose and endeavor.
Nebuchadnezzar was utterly totalitarian in his kingship. There was no dissent in the ranks of the Babylonian Empire because the Babylonian Empire was Nebuchadnezzar, period. Babylon had a much greater influence on its people and those it conquered, thus Babylon was wholly Babylonian. Even the exiled remnant of Israel were known as Babylonian Jews.
4. So the main point being made with the toes of clay and iron in which the seed of men will not adhere together, simply means that after the Roman Empire, there will be many strong kingdoms of great influence and power and many nations without such power, and there would never again be a coming together of an Empire with strength, glory, and cohesiveness of mind that would ever compare to the Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Greek or Roman, which were true "Empires" in every sense of the term, albeit degrading ones as mankind progressed, increased and further divided itself.

England and America are strong, but when their citizens intermarry with those from third world countries, there is no blending of national powers. The strong will not "cleave" to the "weak". The nations will stay divided amongst themselves. There will be no more "Empires" such as those in the earlier history of man.
Even when they all try to come together as a global order in the end, they will still come together as separate and unique individual cultures, and even then their effort will only last a few years.



posted on Feb, 12 2013 @ 12:49 PM
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Originally posted by dashen

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by spy66
 

There is certainly more sense in that idea than trying to extend the life of "Rome" indefinitely into the present, as a lot of people do.


If you have any doubt about Rome being the Empire in charge today, then look at the very edifices of the Government buildings, our sport stadiums, geez, our foreign policy. The Pax Americana is falling apart.


The Vatican is the ghost on top of Romes Grave. Rome is not in charge, the Vatican is. There is no doubt about it.

Only the Catholic Church have the power to change times. And have don so.

Gods Holy day is on Saturday. The Catholic Church changed it to Sunday.

The Catholic Church is so bold it claims, God must answer to them.



posted on Feb, 12 2013 @ 04:18 PM
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Originally posted by stupid girl
4. So the main point being made with the toes of clay and iron in which the seed of men will not adhere together, simply means that after the Roman Empire, there will be many strong kingdoms of great influence and power and many nations without such power, and there would never again be a coming together of an Empire with strength, glory, and cohesiveness of mind ... The strong will not "cleave" to the "weak". The nations will stay divided amongst themselves. There will be no more "Empires" such as those in the earlier history of man.
Even when they all try to come together as a global order in the end, they will still come together as separate and unique individual cultures, and even then their effort will only last a few years.

I think this is a very good way of putting it.
I agree with you that there is no reason to see "alien genes" in the picture.
Thank you for those comments.



posted on Feb, 12 2013 @ 05:16 PM
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reply to post by dashen
 

You say that Rome must be the Empire in charge today because the Pax Americana is falling apart.
What's the connection between the two halves of that argument?
The Pax Americana could fall apart just as easily if the empire in charge were Babylon, Persia, Greece, or even China.
How exactly does the state of America point specifically to Rome?



edit on 12-2-2013 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 12 2013 @ 06:28 PM
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reply to post by jcrash
 

I'm not sure that my explanation does rule out the four beasts being in Revelation, especially if the sea-beast is understood to be human authority as a whole, like the statue.

There are flaws in your own analysis of the beasts. For example, it is a little arbitrary to fasten on four nations of a particular time era, just because it happens to be the one you're living in, and also leave out a vast swathe of the world from China through India and Indonesia and Africa to Latin America. Why should China not be a beast?

In any case, you're ignoring an essential feature of the "four kingdoms".
The four kingdoms of the statue are a SEQUENCE- they follow each other in time.
The four "beast" kingdoms of ch.7 are a SEQUENCE- they follow each other in time.
What's more, they are evidently supposed to be the SAME sequence, which is important because you're getting the "beast" sequence in the wrong order relative to the other one.

The gold head is the first empire to appear, in the sequence of time. You identify this with the EU.
The silver is the second empire. You identify this with Russia,.
The bronze is the third empire in the sequence. You identify this with UK-USA.
So, according to you, the sequence of past history has been as follows;
First there was an EU empire; this was overthrown and replaced by a Russian empire; this was overthrown in turn and replaced by a UK-USA empire.
Would you care to attach some dates to this sequence of events? Between which years was the Russian empire ruling the world?

As for the beasts;
The lion with wings is the first in the sequence and must be identified with the gold head.
The bear is the second in the sequence and must be identified with the silver.
The leopard is the third in the sequence and must be identified with the bronze.
You will see, by comparison, that you have got the first and third beasts the wrong way round.

I think you need to pay more attention to the details of the image.



edit on 12-2-2013 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 12 2013 @ 07:45 PM
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reply to post by EnochWasRight
 

Thank you for those comments.
You're bringing in a different set of images from the ones I've been examining.



posted on Feb, 13 2013 @ 10:05 AM
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reply to post by DISRAELI
 





As for the beasts;
The lion with wings is the first in the sequence and must be identified with the gold head.
The bear is the second in the sequence and must be identified with the silver.
The leopard is the third in the sequence and must be identified with the bronze.
You will see, by comparison, that you have got the first and third beasts the wrong way round.


Have you seen the statues on the Town Hall In Nuremberg, Germany ?

Google it, and you will find a beast hiding behind each one of them who represented the Statue of Gold, Silver, Bronze and Iron.

The beast that represent the feet is the 7 headed beast with 10 horns. And that Beast is the Vatican, Catholic Church. If you know how to calculate the dates in the Bible, you will see what beast belongs where.



posted on Feb, 13 2013 @ 04:26 PM
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reply to post by spy66
 

The perennial problem that I have with identifying the Catholic Church as the Beast is this;
Most people who make that claim also want to identify the same church with the Harlot.
But the two claims can't both be true, because the Beast and the Harlot are two distinct things.
At the beginning of ch.17, the Harlot is resting on the support of the Beast, which implies a distinction.
Then at the end of the chapter the Beast is destroying the Harlot, which makes it certain.

So if you insist on making that church the Beast, who is your candidate for the Harlot, which must be different?

I think the "Rome is the Harlot" line is an over-simplification- it took me four or five threads to examine ch.17 properly.
But the Harlot is associated with idolatry, so it does make more sense to me that the Harlot should be based on religious power while the Beast is based on secular power.
Then the uncertain relationship between them is perfectly understandable.



posted on Feb, 13 2013 @ 04:37 PM
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Originally posted by stupid girl

Originally posted by GBP/JPY
and that theory of the mix being alien and human genes mixed being the clay and iron in the feet .....has no backing in Scripture....? someone should research that since we're like in the days of Noah possibly. meaning mixing with the seed of man......
I'm curious about that alien mix....that doesn't want to incorporate with each other....or won't hold together


I have come to only one conclusion of which I am absolutely certain: No one can understand with absolute certainty unless they've experienced a divine vision of revelation.
While I am currently and actively in the middle of an endeavor seeking wisdom and understanding on Daniel & Revelation and God's Truth to be discerned from it, what I have learned most thus far is that God will not reveal anything until you empty your cup of opinion and speculation and seek His wisdom and understanding for His purposes, and not yours.
It is His to give to whomever He chooses and in seeking such, we must come to terms with the possibility that what we seek may never be revealed to us. The greatest of deceivers is the intent of our own heart..."All the ways of a man are clean in his own sight, But the LORD weighs the motives."

Even though Daniel actually had a divine vision, he still had to seek the Lord in humility for over 3 weeks before the meaning of what he saw was explained to him. And even then, he still didn't really comprehend what he was being told.

One of the other few things of which I am absolutely certain, is that the scriptures are written to have a layered meaning. That is one of the reasons why there are so many "interpretations" of the same verse. The other reason is because it is human nature to ponder things from our own perspective and understanding. Put those two together and....
....well, look how many denominations have been started because someone decided they figured out something that had been previously misunderstood or misinterpreted.

What I feel comfortable in my understanding thus far is-
1. DNA is somehow involved in this whole debacle, insomuch as his seed and her seed and creation and Genesis 6 and so on and so forth. DNA is a fact, and I understand that it plays an important role in all of this, but anything else is speculation. Such as it being my speculation that the mark of the beast will somehow affect human DNA.
2. Although the 10 toes of clay and iron could possibly be related to the DNA angle through layered meaning, their intention in the dream was to be representative of kingdoms and leaders, just as the preceding sections of the statue.
3. The preceding sections of the statue were a degrading sequence of glory, power and might, ie: Gold, Silver, Bronze, Iron, Iron & Clay. Meaning, the sheer domination and utter control of populations of men significant at their respective eras, declined. Rome may have had a larger "empire" insomuch as area, but rule was carried out in a fragmented fashion. The Roman Empire was strong as iron at its apex, but the kingdom itself was prone to easy degradation from within among the many sub-leaders that were necessary to manage such a large area of rule. Plus, much of Rome's Empire wasn't even Roman, so the cultural unity of the Empire was never truly of one cohesive mind, purpose and endeavor.
Nebuchadnezzar was utterly totalitarian in his kingship. There was no dissent in the ranks of the Babylonian Empire because the Babylonian Empire was Nebuchadnezzar, period. Babylon had a much greater influence on its people and those it conquered, thus Babylon was wholly Babylonian. Even the exiled remnant of Israel were known as Babylonian Jews.
4. So the main point being made with the toes of clay and iron in which the seed of men will not adhere together, simply means that after the Roman Empire, there will be many strong kingdoms of great influence and power and many nations without such power, and there would never again be a coming together of an Empire with strength, glory, and cohesiveness of mind that would ever compare to the Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Greek or Roman, which were true "Empires" in every sense of the term, albeit degrading ones as mankind progressed, increased and further divided itself.

England and America are strong, but when their citizens intermarry with those from third world countries, there is no blending of national powers. The strong will not "cleave" to the "weak". The nations will stay divided amongst themselves. There will be no more "Empires" such as those in the earlier history of man.
Even when they all try to come together as a global order in the end, they will still come together as separate and unique individual cultures, and even then their effort will only last a few years.


Much wisdom and a little humility thrown in to boot!

That was a very good post. And I totally agree with you about the direct revelation.



posted on Feb, 13 2013 @ 04:55 PM
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One thing I have gleaned over the years is that God's eternal purpose is a precious thing;. And he does not just divulge that information to just anyone.

Countless people have tried to figure it out(end time prophecy) over the years, but very few have even touched the surface. Most of the motivation for this quest for prophetic knowledge is simply pride, and the desire to make a whole lot of money through a book deal or what have you.

If you want the goods....it will only cost you your whole life. But believe me....it's worth it!

HE is worth it!!





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