Daniel; The stone and the statue

Originally posted by troubleshooter
Daniel 8 only covers the historical periods of the Medes/Persians and Greece...
...concluding with Antiochius Epiphanes.

In a few weeks I intend to get into the historical aspect of ch.11. which you may find interesting.

I have figured out why the Beast hates the woman/Harlot.

Revelation 17:16

16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

The verse states that all the 10 horns on the Beast will hate the woman. The beast includs the Chatolic Church.

Considder this: How many catholic's and christians are aware of the false core within the vatican priests hood?
Not many, since many or all worship the pope and keep he's sabbath.
How many do you think will fallow the pope when they know who he is? This is what verse 17:16 is about. It is a religious persecution of true believer in christ. But they will be accused of heresy by the heads of the catholic church.

The catholic church serve a very, very painfull punishment for heresy. Which our history will tell you, it has happened before.

reply to post by spy66

You say Revelation ch17 v16 is "persecution of true believers", that is, you identify them with one side or the other in that fight (it isn't quite clear which way round you mean it).
I'm afraid i don't buy the idea that true believers can be either of them
The Harlot, by definition, relates to those abandoning true belief.
The Beast, by definition, relates to those hostile to true belief.
What we've got in that verse is a war between two evil parties- it's covered by the expression "...when thieves fall out".
My supposition that the Beast is the secular power explains things best.
Many times in history secular power has allowed itself to be the support of religious power, as at the beginning of this chapter.
Many times in history, secular power has turned against religious power, as in ch17 v16.

As always Disraeli your threads are exceptional in research and tremendious rational conclusions.

Here is the revelation of Daniels Statue.

As previously accurately understood the statue represents 4 ways to govern mankind (government prototypes) summarized by physical kingdoms the Earth would have as "ruling" systems. There is also a choronology involved explaining the future of mankind begining in Daniels day and ending with the establishment of the Kingdom of God on Earth.

Head - Gold = Babylon (Daniels day)
Shoulders - Silver = Persia (Cryus - Xerxes)
Torso - Bronze = Greece (Alexander)
Hips/Legs/Toes - Iron/Clay = Rome (Caesars)

They represented the world dominent governments between his day (Babylon) and the establishment of the Kingdom of God on Earth.

These 4 types are also seen in scripture as a 4 part beast. These are all likened to each other in that their true head (Satan) was consistant throughout all 4 types of tyranical ruling systems regardless of time or place, as he was given the power to rule the Earth in this age by perfect design. The Beast is a governmental entity.

Lion = Babylon
Bear = Persia
Leopard = Greece
Dragon = Rome

As each type of government fell, it was replaced by a different version designed to improve upon the shortcomings of the predecessor in terms of why they failed, (Satan learning over time to perfect his governmental enslavement).

Where this can get confussing and most fall off the truth is the 4th section.

All understand when Babylon ended, all understand when Persia ended ("THIS IS SPARTA" lol), all understand when Greece ended... but what about Rome?

There is a reason Rome is given the section of the statue it is given. Begining with the pelvis (unified area), this area represents the begining of Rome. Unified under one capitol, one system, one currency. After the spliting of the Empire there became two areas (Rome, and Constantinople) this is why the legs are seperated and grow further apart as you make your way down the statue. When you get to the feet you arrive at the present time, the end of the age, the time when God will establish his Kingdom over all the Earth, which is why the "stone cut" strikes that section of the statue. At this point the "Rome" section is mixed now with clay (not strong, not together, barely holding on); next comes the 10 toes (same as the ten horns described in Revelation).

You see the Holy Roman Empire has fallen and been rebuilt 6 times since the first (Constantine). The leaders over the revivals are as follows:

- Justinian
- Otto I
- Charles the Great
- Hapsburg Dynasty
- Napolean
- Hitler
- ???... coming soon

These are the 7 "heads" of the Holy Roman emiprical governement system. and in this last revival, as a result of the USD collapse as a global reserve currency, the EU will unite with 10 nations becoming the United States of Europe (10 horns, built on top of 7 heads), the little horn is the Vatican governement.

Churches are referred to in scripture as women. God's church is called "the woman" in Revelation when she is flown to a place of safety in the desert to avoid the flood which proceeded from the dragons mouth. A bride that remained faithful is called a woman, but one that was unfaithful is called a whore. This is spiritual adultry and that is why the Catholic Church is referred to as the "whore" in Revelation that rides on top of the Beast (Holy Roman Empire).

The stone "cut" is Jesus Christ and the strike is His second coming. The Church of God, is the Temple of God (place where God dwells), each member is referred to in scripture as a living stone fit perfectly into place by a master carpenter (Jesus Christ). Jesus Christ being the chef courner"stone".

As this temple grew (more and more people in the Church of God) the stone (Body of Christ) grew into a "mountain" (Government, Kingdom). This mountain IS the Kingdom of God (144,000 members large), it IS the temple of God. When God allows His trumpets to resume sounding shortly, mankinds governments will all come to an end, and the Mountain of the Eternal (Kingdom of God) will fill all the Earth.

That is the true revelation of Daniels vision.

God Bless,

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by spy66

 

You say Revelation ch17 v16 is "persecution of true believers", that is, you identify them with one side or the other in that fight (it isn't quite clear which way round you mean it).
I'm afraid i don't buy the idea that true believers can be either of them
The Harlot, by definition, relates to those abandoning true belief.
The Beast, by definition, relates to those hostile to true belief.
What we've got in that verse is a war between two evil parties- it's covered by the expression "...when thieves fall out".
My supposition that the Beast is the secular power explains things best.
Many times in history secular power has allowed itself to be the support of religious power, as at the beginning of this chapter.
Many times in history, secular power has turned against religious power, as in ch17 v16.

edit on 6-3-2013 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

As you can see when comparred to my last post, this is EXCEPTIONALLY accurate.

Harlot = false religion claiming to be from God and His son.
Mother of all Harlots = Catholic Church (mother of protestanism)

Beast = Governmental system created by mankind apart from the laws of God and under the influence of Satan, personified in the Holy Roman Empire and its revivals.

Your research and logic are awesome Disraeli, you can "see" far more astutely then purhaps even you understand. And only God can give you eyes to see these types of revelation.

God Bless,

Originally posted by ElohimJD
As always Disraeli your threads are exceptional in research and tremendious rational conclusions.

Here is the revelation of Daniels Statue.

As previously accurately understood the statue represents 4 ways to govern mankind (government prototypes) summarized by physical kingdoms the Earth would have as "ruling" systems. There is also a choronology involved explaining the future of mankind begining in Daniels day and ending with the establishment of the Kingdom of God on Earth.

Head - Gold = Babylon (Daniels day)
Shoulders - Silver = Persia (Cryus - Xerxes)
Torso - Bronze = Greece (Alexander)
Hips/Legs/Toes - Iron/Clay = Rome (Caesars)

They represented the world dominent governments between his day (Babylon) and the establishment of the Kingdom of God on Earth.

These 4 types are also seen in scripture as a 4 part beast. These are all likened to each other in that their true head (Satan) was consistant throughout all 4 types of tyranical ruling systems regardless of time or place, as he was given the power to rule the Earth in this age by perfect design. The Beast is a governmental entity.

Lion = Babylon
Bear = Persia
Leopard = Greece
Dragon = Rome

As each type of government fell, it was replaced by a different version designed to improve upon the shortcomings of the predecessor in terms of why they failed, (Satan learning over time to perfect his governmental enslavement).

Where this can get confussing and most fall off the truth is the 4th section.

All understand when Babylon ended, all understand when Persia ended ("THIS IS SPARTA" lol), all understand when Greece ended... but what about Rome?

There is a reason Rome is given the section of the statue it is given. Begining with the pelvis (unified area), this area represents the begining of Rome. Unified under one capitol, one system, one currency. After the spliting of the Empire there became two areas (Rome, and Constantinople) this is why the legs are seperated and grow further apart as you make your way down the statue. When you get to the feet you arrive at the present time, the end of the age, the time when God will establish his Kingdom over all the Earth, which is why the "stone cut" strikes that section of the statue. At this point the "Rome" section is mixed now with clay (not strong, not together, barely holding on); next comes the 10 toes (same as the ten horns described in Revelation).

You see the Holy Roman Empire has fallen and been rebuilt 6 times since the first (Constantine). The leaders over the revivals are as follows:

- Justinian
- Otto I
- Charles the Great
- Hapsburg Dynasty
- Napolean
- Hitler
- ???... coming soon

These are the 7 "heads" of the Holy Roman emiprical governement system. and in this last revival, as a result of the USD collapse as a global reserve currency, the EU will unite with 10 nations becoming the United States of Europe (10 horns, built on top of 7 heads), the little horn is the Vatican governement.

Churches are referred to in scripture as women. God's church is called "the woman" in Revelation when she is flown to a place of safety in the desert to avoid the flood which proceeded from the dragons mouth. A bride that remained faithful is called a woman, but one that was unfaithful is called a whore. This is spiritual adultry and that is why the Catholic Church is referred to as the "whore" in Revelation that rides on top of the Beast (Holy Roman Empire).

The stone "cut" is Jesus Christ and the strike is His second coming. The Church of God, is the Temple of God (place where God dwells), each member is referred to in scripture as a living stone fit perfectly into place by a master carpenter (Jesus Christ). Jesus Christ being the chef courner"stone".

As this temple grew (more and more people in the Church of God) the stone (Body of Christ) grew into a "mountain" (Government, Kingdom). This mountain IS the Kingdom of God (144,000 members large), it IS the temple of God. When God allows His trumpets to resume sounding shortly, mankinds governments will all come to an end, and the Mountain of the Eternal (Kingdom of God) will fill all the Earth.

That is the true revelation of Daniels vision.

God Bless,

Right on bro.....or brodette

reply to post by ElohimJD

You are very kind.
I will only add that the passage you've just quoted is my standard line on this point, and I'm particularly fond of the "thieves falling out" metaphor, which I've used before in this context.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by spy66

 

You say Revelation ch17 v16 is "persecution of true believers", that is, you identify them with one side or the other in that fight (it isn't quite clear which way round you mean it).
I'm afraid i don't buy the idea that true believers can be either of them
The Harlot, by definition, relates to those abandoning true belief.
The Beast, by definition, relates to those hostile to true belief.
What we've got in that verse is a war between two evil parties- it's covered by the expression "...when thieves fall out".
My supposition that the Beast is the secular power explains things best.
Many times in history secular power has allowed itself to be the support of religious power, as at the beginning of this chapter.
Many times in history, secular power has turned against religious power, as in ch17 v16.

edit on 6-3-2013 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

There is one very important word is this verse. The word is "remnant"
It means:

1. Something left over; a remainder.
4. A small surviving group of people. Often used in the plural.

And it is refering to the people which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The Cathlic Church does not keep/fallow the 10 commandments. It has left out the sabbath day "the 4th commandment" God proclaimed in genesis capter 2:2

2: And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

The catholic Church have keep their own sabbath "Sunday". And it is the day Jesus was resurrected. Neither Jesus or God have said this is a sabbath day.

What verse 17 means is that all who keep Gods 10 commandments will be procecuteted for heresy. By the beast, which includes the Catholic Church. Who enforce and decides what we shal have faith in.

If you try to keep the 4th commandment today. You will soon find truble, and it will probably start with your employer if you hva a job that have working hours on saturday. If you tell him that you want to repect the 4th commandment he/she will lough at you, and think your joking.

reply to post by spy66

You have not got over the problem of the fact that the same organisation cannot be Beast and Harlot simultaneously.

You cannot make "Sunday Observance" an issue to separate out the Roman Catholic church, because the church as a whole has ALWAYS been honouring Sunday, apart from a small modern minority. It doesn't distinguish the Catholics from the rest.
Furthermore the Catholic Church, in the modern sense, was not responsible for either the abandonment of the Jewish Sabbath or the taking up of Sunday, because this happened in the early days of the church long BEFORE the Catholic Church in the modern sense came into existence.
I refer you to my thread The springboard of papal power

The idea that those who take Saturday as the Sabbath are going to be persecuted for doing so is fantasy.
Nobody has shown the slightest interest in doing that, and the political backing for that kind of persecution isn't available either.

reply to post by DISRAELI

The idea that those who take Saturday as the Sabbath are going to be persecuted for doing so is fantasy.
Nobody has shown the slightest interest in doing that, and the political backing for that kind of persecution isn't available either.

What authority do you have to give promis for this?

The head of Catholic Church is the 10th horn on the beast. The catholic church aint going to chase it self, but it will chase its memebrs for heresy. This verse tells you so.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Gods true church are the people who fallow gods commandments.

Originally posted by spy66

What authority do you have to give promis for this?

It's just a question of looking up at the world around you, reading the newspapers, etc.
This is a much more secular world than it used to be, and there is no political backing for any persecution of one group of Christians by another.
The idea is just not practical politics.
There is certainly going to be no backing in more Protestant countires for the Roman Catholic church to persecute anyone at all.

In any case, as I''ve pointed out, the Catholics can't persecute the rest of the church for practicising Saturday Sabbath,because the rest of the church is not practicising Saturday Sabbath.
Only a small modern minority are doing that.
The probabality is that the church has not practiced the Jewish Sabbath, historically, because the Gentile converts of Paul never took it up in the first place.
If it is the mark of genuine Christian faith to practice the Saturday Sabbath., then there have been no genuine Christians for the last two thousand years, among all those millions of believers, apart from the small community which decided to revive it over the last couple of centuries.
I'm not going to believe that.

reply to post by DISRAELI


The thing is; the pope is the head of almost all the Chruches in the world. Sure non of them are going to practice a Saturday sabbath. And sure we are not going to practice a Saturday sabath when almost the whole world fallows the Gregorian Calendar. All kings and world leaders must bow before the pope, and they do. You can do some research on that.


Don't you see that this is one of the ten great horns on the beast? The Church is in a perfect position to prosecute the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. She "this Church" is the great whore of Babylon.

True you don't see this taking place today. And that is why you reject the possibility of tomarrow.
I gues you have great faith politics.


This is also a verse that describes the papal see.

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

If John was impressed i gues you would be to.

I bet John was very impressed since the angel said this:

7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

Marvel:

- something that causes wonder, admiration, or astonishment; a wonderful thing; a wonder or prodigy: The new bridge is an engineering marvel.

By the way everything "looks", you have no reason to fear the situation or these verses. Because you dont know the mystery of this woman.

Originally posted by spy66

The thing is; the pope is the head of almost all the Chruches in the world.

Most of the churches of the world would disagree with that statement.
If you were better acquainted with them, you would have to drop that simple division of the world between "either our community or Rome".
The world is bigger and more complicated than that.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by spy66

The thing is; the pope is the head of almost all the Chruches in the world.

Most of the churches of the world would disagree with that statement.
If you were better acquainted with them, you would have to drop that simple division of the world between "either our community or Rome".
The world is bigger and more complicated than that.

I don't think the churches would disagree. I think only the public would disagree. Because they dont know who answers to who.

reply to post by spy66


Spy66 and Disraeli

Both are correct to a point.

The "Whore" is a religious/spiritual entity (Roman Catholic Church)
The "Beast" is a governmental/physical entity (revived Holy Roman Empire)

The "little horn" is the governmental entity know as Vatican City.

Unlike all other religious organizations, the Roman Catholic Church is both a spiritual religion and governmental entity. Her faith is likened to a "whore" and her government is liked to the "little horn".

God Bless,

reply to post by spy66


Spy66 and Disraeli

Also regarding the persecution of the "remnant" understand some of these verses were given directly for the remnant of God's Church after the abomination of desolation occured and the church apostized.

In 1994 God's Church on Earth was destroyed because they developed the spirit of Laodicea and were vomited out of God's mouth (removed from dwelling IN God's presence). This event occured the day a sermon was given by the man placed at the head of God's Church (given a crown to conquer, white horse) that told the Body of Christ they no longer had to keep the 4th commandment. He stood (was made to stand) in the Holy place (Temple of God/Church of God) and offered up an abomination unto the Eternal (destroyed the law of the 7th day Sabbath) that made the Temple desolate (empty). 40 Sabbaths later to the hour, this man (son of perdition) died in a moment.... let him who reads understand.

After that event more than 500 splinter groups were created each trying to recreate the Church of God in their own image. They declared a type of war (red horse) over docrine and perceived truth. After the wars, they were malnurished because they were "cut off" from the flow of God's spirit, they were no longer being feed spiritually, therefore a massive spiritual famine filled those who used to be in the Body (black horse). Since Jesus Christ is the bread of life, and these members went "unfed" for so long by rebelling against God's Eternal laws, some have lost the spiritual life that God was creating in their mind, and their oppurtunity to become a part of Elohim at the return of Jesus Christ was taken away and died (pale horse).

The persecution is from those who used to be a part of God's Church towards those who remained faithful to keeping God's commandments in spirit and in truth after all were cast out of the Body, the remnant is actually the smallest of the splinter groups, God did this also by design (see Gideon story for a symbolic example). These verses are for the Church, not the world.

The absolute truth of the Sabbath will be given in God's timing to all that remain humble and desire to obey the Eternal, if you keep Sunday now, you are not condemned in this age. God will offer total forgiveness if, when He does begin to reveal himself through the sounding of the trumpets, you repent of past error and accept the awesome truth of God. But those who were IN the Body and chose to enter into judgement by free will, and then later chose to refuse to keep the 7th day Sabbath will be condemned in this age and not enter into the Kingdom to come.

All who will live on into the millenial reign of Jesus Christ and the 144,000 will embrace the awesome truth of the Sabbath, for it teaches in the greatest degree of magnitude the overall purpose for the 7000 year plan for the salvation of physical mankind.

"6 days you shall do your own work (6000 years you can determine for yourself how to live, i.e. the age of man), but the 7th day (6000-7000 years) is the Sabbath of the Eternal. It is set aside for Holy use and purpose to teach mankind the ways of the Eternal, the last 1000 years are the millenial reign of the Elohim of God, symbolized and reminded of every single week of your physical life through the blessing of a weekly Sabbath.

"a day is as to a thousand years to the Eternal"

To Spy66's credit the "mark" of the government apart from God's laws (Beast) is the refusal to keep God's 4th commandment, the 7th day Sabbath. Scipture says several times this is the "test" commandment, used as a "sign" forever that you are my people and I am your God.

The refusal to obey this commandment is to tell God "you are wrong, I don't have to obey this law, surely I can set aside any day to worship you on". By thinking this way you have placed your belief in what is right and wrong above what God reveals it to be, lifted yourself up above God, altered His eternal commands in your mind and robbed yourself of the awesome begining point to understanding the plan of God for His family creation. God's plan is the begining of wisdom, and the 7th day Sabbath is the begining of the understanding of that plan.

God Bless,

reply to post by ElohimJD

In 1994 God's Church on Earth was destroyed because they developed the spirit of Laodicea and were vomited our of God's mouth (removed from dwelling IN God's presence). This event occured the day a sermon was given by the man placed at the head of God's Church (given a crown to conquer) that told the Body of Christ they no longer had to keep the 4th commandment.

I have never heard of this?

Originally posted by spy66
reply to post by ElohimJD

 

In 1994 God's Church on Earth was destroyed because they developed the spirit of Laodicea and were vomited our of God's mouth (removed from dwelling IN God's presence). This event occured the day a sermon was given by the man placed at the head of God's Church (given a crown to conquer) that told the Body of Christ they no longer had to keep the 4th commandment.

I have never heard of this?

A sermon given by Joseph Tkach in Atlanta GA, on Dec. 17, 1994 fufilled this prophecy concerning this apostasy that led an overwhelming majority of the Church away from the truths of God, as he stood before the Body and proclaimed the commandments no longer were enforced.

Exactly 40 sabbath later to the hour he died, this event revealed who the "man of perdition" was, by the judgment of 40.

These are facts that are proovable in history if you are interrested in looking them up. The once strong Worldwide Church of God (as it was called during the Philidelphia era) was shattered seemingly overnight into 500 diferent groups all attacking one another to fight over the left over members who were still wreathing from the shock of what was just spoken in God's Church, through their pastor. This is what was prophesized to occur to the church era of Laodicea and it did, just as God foretold His Church would.

Presently the Church of God is Preparring for the Kingdom of God, which is the current title; as it explains God focus for His church now that the end of the age has come. This is the remnant of the Body who remained faithful to the commandments of the Eternal.

God Bless,

reply to post by ElohimJD


I have a question. Where does Joseph Tkach fit into the Bible?

Laodicea:

In John's vision, recorded in the book of Revelation, Christ instructs John to write a message to seven named churches in Asia Minor. The message to Laodicea is one of judgement with a call to repentance. The oracle contains a number of striking metaphors.

"I wish that you were cold or hot" (3:15–16)

"15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth"

Laodicea is also where the remnants of the Roman Emipre and the Head of the Catholic Church had the conference of ecclesiastical dignitaries, to discuss and settle matters of Church doctrine and practice in which those entitled to vote are convoked from the whole world (oikoumene) and which secures the approbation of the whole Church.

reply to post by DISRAELI

I await this revelation.