Homebuilding, TEOTWAWKI Style

reply to post by Monger


Yes they will probably say the structure is unsafe and when they move in with thier front end loader (pay loader I think you call them?) to demolish them, they will send you the bill for all the damage to the pay loader.

This is a timely thread. I've been doing alot of research into alternative building methods and materials as of late. I've pretty much settle on an earthbag structured earthsheltered home. I'll post a few Sketchup models I've done up here tomorrow. A good book to check out that they might have at your library- they have them at ours here in Billings- are "Building With Earth- A Guide to Flexible-Form Earthbag Construction", by Paulina Wojciechowska.
For anyone who doesn't know, Earthbags are pretty much just polypropolyne sandbags or feed bags filled with soil, either soil from your building site or brought in by truck. The optimal mix of soil if I remember right is 70% regular soil to 20-30% clay, the remainder being sand or a harder such as concrete or some such thing. You fill the bags on the walls, raising layer by layer untill you reach your desired height. 4-point barbed wire is placed in between the runs of bags to hold it together better. You can even do domed roofs with them. After your walls are complete you can stucco or use earthen materials to finish the outside and interior walls.

Earthbags can be bought online as unprinted or misprints. Misprints are cheaper. You can also get these really long tube bags but they are more expensive and more difficult to handle if you are short handed. Earthbag building is cheap, but labor intensive. A rough estimate of prices I remember seeing for misprint bags is about $300 for 1000. 2000 bags will build a decent sized shelter.

Another construction technique you might check out is Rammed Earth. Basically, two forms are set up and earth is placed inbetween them and squeezed together by the forums. From what I've read though, this can be much more expensive than Earthbag.

**Wanted to add, a estimate I read in one of the building sites for cost can be as low as $10/sq.ft. Try getting that low with regular building methods!

Originally posted by Bedlam
ICF is also airtight - you actually need fresh air intakes designed in, mostly you use a heat exchanger so you don't lose your cold/heat. But in a TEOTWAWKI situation, you could shut that down and isolate the house from zombie virus or clouds of CS tear gas.

Or clouds of VX and other goodies brought to you by our caring rulers.

I agree with total control and filtering of air intake, but I think the best construction method is underground. There are three or four contractors in the US using this type of cast concrete house based on 24 and 28 foot modules:

www.earthshelteredhome.com...


The earth itself (and perhaps PAHS) takes the place of the ICFs....

the what to use element is dependent on the Where to Build question...

there are consideratrions like level land sites, even hillside locations can be non acceptable IF
the site is within the danger zone of a nuclear powered generating plant, or on the wrong side of the elevated site where fallout or pollution would be a natural result of the prevailing winds.

then there is the (not so remote) possibility of having a dam collapse and the resuting inundation of your refuge
there are more than 100K dams, levees that are considered outdated/unsafe right now all over the USA...
the govt has not had infrastructure remediation as a priority for decades,,, bridges, tunnels, dams, levees all designed for a 50 year life are now mostly older than 60-70 years and nothing planned to replace or remodel these timebombs


what about building an ARK... perhaps using a barge as a platform...one could construct a geo-dome on the deck and have a poor mans' eco-sphere on a 100' long barge ...living in a greenhouse arrangement...
if the waters upstream burst, you will just rise with the tide & anchor where it suits you
just as long its not a cooling lake for one of those nuclear reactors producing electricity


i sure wouldn't want to be trapped like a drowning rat in a eartbound metal crate or a concrete tomb when a TEOTWAWKI happens

Another thing to think about when choosing a building method that I hadn't mentioned is transportation costs. For an earthbagged building, most of the transport costs associated would be if you had soil mix trucked in. About 2.50$/ton delivered in a 15 ton truckload is a figure I've seen mentioned.

One thing you should consider, this being Montana, is straw bale. Lots of those here and if you have a truck you can rent a trailer and transport it yourself, saving you alot of money in the process. Some farmers will sell the straw bales for what it cost them to bale it, making it a cheap method if you transport it yourself. Also, strawbale has excellent insulating properties and you can build a shelter I"d think much quicker because of the size of the building blocks.

Originally posted by JJRichey
Another thing to think about when choosing a building method that I hadn't mentioned is transportation costs. For an earthbagged building, most of the transport costs associated would be if you had soil mix trucked in. About 2.50$/ton delivered in a 15 ton truckload is a figure I've seen mentioned.

Not always true. In many areas of the country you can get free dirt from the county. All you need to ask the public works department.

One thing you should consider, this being Montana, is straw bale. Lots of those here and if you have a truck you can rent a trailer and transport it yourself, saving you alot of money in the process. Some farmers will sell the straw bales for what it cost them to bale it, making it a cheap method if you transport it yourself. Also, strawbale has excellent insulating properties and you can build a shelter I"d think much quicker because of the size of the building blocks.

Good point, the work you're willing to do, the more you going to save.

reply to post by Guyfriday


The other thing is the soil that is excavated from the building site. Depending on the site and home design, this could be substantial especially if you have a root or cold cellar.

You can build it yourself, from conventional materials, much cheaper than any contractor.
My Dad and I, 20 years ago, built their home for around $37,000. That includes everything. 3 bed, 2 full bath, 1 half bath, laundry room, huge kitchen, 1 car garage, living room, dining room. It may take longer than you like, but it's well worth it.

reply to post by Guyfriday


Hmm thanks for that suggestion. I hadn't thought about the county possibly having it to give away. I'd only want to truck it in if the soil on your build site wasn't suitable with the proper proportions of soil/clay/sand. I'm not really sure how important it is to get it exactly right, it may or may not be worth the cost of trucking in high clay soil if your soil has little clay.

Keep in mind I have yet to build anything using earthbags or strawbale, I'm just an interested person who plans on using one of these methods eventually.

reply to post by JJRichey


There are some great videos on the "Youtube" about building with sandbags. Just look up Owen Geiger.

My life dream is to build self sustainable and eviornmentally friendly communities out of ecoearth homes. I the idea earthship homes and especially earthbags.

Here is a link to Earthbag homes by Thea Bryant. I think they are very cool and there is a place for them, to be sure. I think some kind of hybrid earthship/earthbag/strawbale may be the way to go. Provided the labor doesn't kill the owner before he/she gets to move in!

What strikes me so well with the earthships is the fully integrated systems, so that the home is fully contained and requires little, if any, outside resources once it's built. Which was what I wanted way back in the '80's before life so harshly intervened.

Now, how do we group-itect such a hybrid that lives up to the earthship spiel of "affordable" and "for the people"?

reply to post by LetsGoViking


My all time favorite, and if i survive long enough one of these days
i am going to build one of these.

Hobbit home by Simon Dale
www.simondale.net...

reply to post by severdsoul

The Hobbit House is what got the wife into thinking about alternative homes.

Originally posted by Jay Electronica
My life dream is to build self sustainable and eviornmentally friendly communities out of ecoearth homes. I the idea earthship homes and especially earthbags.

Now here is something I just came across,Hyper Wattle. Who knew? This could have some interesting contributions to make to affordable hybrid homes. Here's a YouTube of the process. Interesting.

reply to post by LetsGoViking


as much as i love the hobbit house as it is, i think for mine
i am going to build a metal frame, rather than use tree's.

The tree supports look great, but wood rots rather quickly in damp
environments, and i want something that is going to last.
so i'm planing on modifying it a bit, its not as environmentally friendly, but
should last a lot longer. I was also thinking on top of the straw bails, spray
a layer of insulation, then use the hardener that many movie prop's use for foam and
create a rock hard structure, could paint it to look like a big rock, or still cover it with
dirt, but this would add a water proof layer, heck if you wanted you could also spray over
the rock hard cover with a layer of the spray in bed liner, like for pickup trucks and further
improve the water proof.
Although i've had the idea of not such a big hole at top, use a funnel type structure over
the fire in the center so you end up with a 8" or so size hole for the smoke to go out and the
roof is fully waterproof, use a sheet of steel and cut out a circle with a hole in the middle to weld
the funnel to and cover the hole.
One could also use the pipe going up to heat water, thus giving you much cheaper and many times
such as winter free hot water, would have to do some rigging, as well as have a holding tank, and a
pump to circulate it, but there are many solar powered pumps on the market.

If one spent time and thought it out this could be a totally off grid home, with all the comforts we
are use to.

reply to post by LetsGoViking


not much on looks, but that is one cheap house, and i am sure the R value's are
up there. shoot for $300 cant go wrong.
This would be a great one for the spray on foam insulation with the hardener on top
as well.
wish i could remember what the hardener was called, i saw it on a version of monster
garage, they did a room and made it look like a dinosaur or something , spray foam and
carved it, then sprayed the hardener over the top, and when dried they could hit it with a
hammer and not effect it, stuff was like concrete on the outside.

Originally posted by severdsoul
reply to post by LetsGoViking
The tree supports look great, but wood rots rather quickly in damp
environments, and i want something that is going to last.
so i'm planing on modifying it a bit, its not as environmentally friendly, but
should last a lot longer.

I agree.

I was also thinking on top of the straw bails, spray
a layer of insulation, then use the hardener that many movie prop's use for foam and
create a rock hard structure, could paint it to look like a big rock, or still cover it with
dirt, but this would add a water proof layer, heck if you wanted you could also spray over
the rock hard cover with a layer of the spray in bed liner, like for pickup trucks and further
improve the water proof.
Although i've had the idea of not such a big hole at top, use a funnel type structure over
the fire in the center so you end up with a 8" or so size hole for the smoke to go out and the
roof is fully waterproof, use a sheet of steel and cut out a circle with a hole in the middle to weld
the funnel to and cover the hole.

A masonary mass stove with a proper chimney should do the trick. That would allow for far more efficent heating and a proper roof opening will reduce drafts inside the home.

One could also use the pipe going up to heat water, thus giving you much cheaper and many times
such as winter free hot water, would have to do some rigging, as well as have a holding tank, and a
pump to circulate it, but there are many solar powered pumps on the market.

Not as hard as it sounds. The house I stayed in in Kila was totally off-grid strawbale with heated floors. They ran copper tubing to the wood burning stove with a small holding tank behind it. Thermal siphoning kept the water moving and floors very comfortable. You could, with a little Maker insight, use a Raspberry PI and a thermo couple to have programmable heated floors and hot water with a very modest investment (less than a good hammer).

If one spent time and thought it out this could be a totally off grid home, with all the comforts we
are use to.

Too true!

reply to post by LetsGoViking


it depends on what all bells and whistles you want. But I can tell you right now that guy is blowing smoke up your ass on that price he gave you unless you want to finish it like an upper middle class small mansion.

I am working on a design for a concrete home with all the amenities that anyone can build for under 10 grand. Kind of like these here: www.flyingconcrete.com... but thin shell with an insulation layer and then stucco finish coat. Similar concept as a monolithic dome but using rebar and mesh armature for the frame and then you could stucco it yourself by hand or even just hire some stucco guys to put the mud on for you.

Monolithic domes and that earthship guy are trying to make a living like building conventional homes its ridiculous. Get on craigslist and start collecting materials. I got a whole house full of double paned vinyl windows that had just been put in a few years earlier for $500 doing that.

Concrete is still one of the cheapest building materials and tough as hell last for hundreds of years fire resistant etc. I was even thinking doing something similar to this except using concrete and insulation instead of straw bale: www.simondale.net... Concrete lends itself to all sorts of versatile shapes.



I am looking at land to build a Holzer permaculture farm and school and teach all of this stuff for the future of society.

reply to post by LetsGoViking

reply to post by severdsoul



I bet you guys like me were inspired by this thread posted in 2008
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I think this post started my fascination with alternative eco homes... I even see where you posted in it severd soul

The sharing of new ideas and infornation like that is why I keep coming back.. also thanks for the video viking