Should Churchill be seen as a warmonger and partial escalator of WW2?

The only partial escalation I can think they had a hand in doing was propping them up in the first place in the leadup to the invasions...

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
not trying to reduce the crimes of Hitler, I'm just interested in looking at the second world war from a non-biased perspective. There's really a lot of wartime propaganda that carried on after the war and eventually became written history. but the blame eternally resides with the Nazi aggression and Hitler

.... Ok. So who else invaded various countries? France? The UK? Andorra? NO! Germany invaded! Hitler started the war, not Churchill! Hitler was in charge of Germany at a time when Churchill was a backbencher!

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening

Originally posted by DPrice
Oh cool a Hitler apologist, don''t see that often on ATS...

not trying to reduce the crimes of Hitler, I'm just interested in looking at the second world war from a non-biased perspective. There's really a lot of wartime propaganda that carried on after the war and eventually became written history. but the blame eternally resides with the Nazi aggression and Hitler

You thought Churchill was PM when WW2 broke out, clearly you know your stuff.

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
not true, the actual number of deaths in Dresden will never be known because the victims literally disappeared, they turned to ash. David Irving used higher numbers, I think 120.000, but even the revisionists are lowering that anyway. There is still a fierce debate going on about Dresden, you'll never have the actual number. What is sure is that 22,000 is NOT anywhere near the actual amount of bodies turned to ash.

No, not true again. The last study was in 2010 by the city authorities of Dresden and they said that the death toll was not more than 25,000 people. (www.dresden.de...)

well obviously a German commission wouldn't want to step over it's boundaries and conjure up criticism of being revisionist right? I don't care if you think it's that low, the fact remains that the true number will never be found since the people killed literally vanished from the earth in the fire storm and became dust. the actual number is much higher than 25,000. If it makes you happy, I say a minimum of 75,000

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout


Plus he wrote very little of Mein Kampf himself, the majority of it was written my Rudolf Hess and Professor Karl Haushofer.

Well one can argue about who wrote what and who dictated what and who edited what.....but he offered it as his political ideology did he not?

Originally posted by DPrice

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening

Originally posted by DPrice
Oh cool a Hitler apologist, don''t see that often on ATS...

not trying to reduce the crimes of Hitler, I'm just interested in looking at the second world war from a non-biased perspective. There's really a lot of wartime propaganda that carried on after the war and eventually became written history. but the blame eternally resides with the Nazi aggression and Hitler

You thought Churchill was PM when WW2 broke out, clearly you know your stuff.

did I say that? No, and I know he wasn't pm. But to deny he was not influential in English policy towards Germany is ridiculous.

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
not trying to reduce the crimes of Hitler, I'm just interested in looking at the second world war from a non-biased perspective. There's really a lot of wartime propaganda that carried on after the war and eventually became written history. but the blame eternally resides with the Nazi aggression and Hitler

.... Ok. So who else invaded various countries? France? The UK? Andorra? NO! Germany invaded! Hitler started the war, not Churchill! Hitler was in charge of Germany at a time when Churchill was a backbencher!

Yes exactly...and in Mein Kampf, Hitler made his territorial ambitions quite clear and while they may not have directly impacted upon France, they did impact upon existing trade...and that is what war is all about..trade and economics. So while Hitler may not have wanted French territory per se, his ambitions were impactive on French trade and therefore were a threat to her prosperity.

reply to post by ConservativeAwakening


Hittler territorial claims started more or less like the ones China makes toady but you have to understand that it was a cover a political ruse, I'm certain that you understand that he couldn't be open or even know what would happen.

He did expect the French to crash his party, because the French didn't and open a two Front war that would be unsuportable for Germany at that time is probably more to blame who didn't stop what.

In any case the UK and the US are mostly to blame for WW2 escalation, it could all have been resolved had they intervened to stop the Spanish civil war.

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening


did I say that? No, and I know he wasn't pm. But to deny he was not influential in English policy towards Germany is ridiculous.

No, but you clearly don't know a lot about British politics of the time. Churchill was out of Government. Chamberlain was in Government. Chamberlain was the arch-appeaser. How is that being nasty to Germany?

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
not trying to reduce the crimes of Hitler, I'm just interested in looking at the second world war from a non-biased perspective. There's really a lot of wartime propaganda that carried on after the war and eventually became written history. but the blame eternally resides with the Nazi aggression and Hitler

.... Ok. So who else invaded various countries? France? The UK? Andorra? NO! Germany invaded! Hitler started the war, not Churchill! Hitler was in charge of Germany at a time when Churchill was a backbencher!

it's hard to define the actual start of the war, it's commonly the invasion of Poland by Germany, but Germany did not declare war against Poland. To say it was Hitler's intention of starting a world war is ridiculous, the German generals were frantic about a 2 front war, one on eastern Germany and western Germany. THAT'S the reason for the Blitzkrieg tactic. I mean yes, they could have prolonged the first phase of the war, the "Phony War" period, but they didnt...

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening


you're actually wrong there, Hitler does in fact mention gas in Mein Kampf, I believe he was referring to the Jews in Germany during the first world war, which he saw as saboteurs, partisans and really whatever else.

Even if the mass gassing of Jews in 1925 was a thought he had in retrospect only at that time.....it was a plan that worked out pretty well for him at a future time in WWII wouldn't you say?

Originally posted by Logos23
Well one can argue about who wrote what and who dictated what and who edited what.....but he offered it as his political ideology did he not?

If we are going to look at it in such simple terms, then yes I suppose so...but the devil is always in the detail. And one cannot understand Hitler without understanding the importance of Hess and Haushofer ideologically to Nazi Germany... Hitler himself didn't really understand geo-politics and that is a very important point to realise. Especially given his actions post May 1941.

Originally posted by Logos23

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening


you're actually wrong there, Hitler does in fact mention gas in Mein Kampf, I believe he was referring to the Jews in Germany during the first world war, which he saw as saboteurs, partisans and really whatever else.

Even if the mass gassing of Jews in 1925 was a thought he had in retrospect only at that time.....it was a plan that worked out pretty well for him at a future time in WWII wouldn't you say?

he wasn't thinking about using gas to kill the jews in 1925, he was talking about the Jews during ww1. I think he meant in retrospect it would have fitted his plan to kill the jews during the first world war

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
it's hard to define the actual start of the war, it's commonly the invasion of Poland by Germany, but Germany did not declare war against Poland. To say it was Hitler's intention of starting a world war is ridiculous, the German generals were frantic about a 2 front war, one on eastern Germany and western Germany. THAT'S the reason for the Blitzkrieg tactic. I mean yes, they could have prolonged the first phase of the war, the "Phony War" period, but they didnt...

I'm sorry, but if you don't think that attacking with 1,500,000 men isn't a de facto declaration of war then you have a very odd idea of warfare. Hitler invaded Poland. There was no Polish invasion of Germany. It was Hitler's aggression that started the war.

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
not trying to reduce the crimes of Hitler, I'm just interested in looking at the second world war from a non-biased perspective. There's really a lot of wartime propaganda that carried on after the war and eventually became written history. but the blame eternally resides with the Nazi aggression and Hitler

.... Ok. So who else invaded various countries? France? The UK? Andorra? NO! Germany invaded! Hitler started the war, not Churchill! Hitler was in charge of Germany at a time when Churchill was a backbencher!

it's hard to define the actual start of the war, it's commonly the invasion of Poland by Germany, but Germany did not declare war against Poland. To say it was Hitler's intention of starting a world war is ridiculous, the German generals were frantic about a 2 front war, one on eastern Germany and western Germany. THAT'S the reason for the Blitzkrieg tactic. I mean yes, they could have prolonged the first phase of the war, the "Phony War" period, but they didnt...

Or..... Germany didn't have to start killing the Jewish people or invade other countries.

Originally posted by Panic2k11
reply to post by ConservativeAwakening

 

Hittler territorial claims started more or less like the ones China makes toady but you have to understand that it was a cover a political ruse, I'm certain that you understand that he couldn't be open or even know what would happen.

He did expect the French to crash his party, because the French didn't and open a two Front war that would be unsuportable for Germany at that time is probably more to blame who didn't stop what.

In any case the UK and the US are mostly to blame for WW2 escalation, it could all have been resolved had they intervened to stop the Spanish civil war.

Documents the Germans found in Warsaw and later published during the war actually show that Roosevelt was heavily communicating with the Poles and encouraging them to be fierce with Germany PRIOR to Germany's invasion of Poland. Roosevelt was secretly preparing for a European conflict prior to September 1st.

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
it's hard to define the actual start of the war, it's commonly the invasion of Poland by Germany, but Germany did not declare war against Poland. To say it was Hitler's intention of starting a world war is ridiculous, the German generals were frantic about a 2 front war, one on eastern Germany and western Germany. THAT'S the reason for the Blitzkrieg tactic. I mean yes, they could have prolonged the first phase of the war, the "Phony War" period, but they didnt...

I'm sorry, but if you don't think that attacking with 1,500,000 men isn't a de facto declaration of war then you have a very odd idea of warfare. Hitler invaded Poland. There was no Polish invasion of Germany. It was Hitler's aggression that started the war.

And let us not forget the Einsatzgruppen and T4 units sent in the Wehrmacht's wake to ensure that all opposition was removed and that the country was thoroughly euthanised and ethnically cleansed. Every male over the age of 14 of Slavic descent murdered...summarily...

That's super aggressive in my book.

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
it's hard to define the actual start of the war, it's commonly the invasion of Poland by Germany, but Germany did not declare war against Poland. To say it was Hitler's intention of starting a world war is ridiculous, the German generals were frantic about a 2 front war, one on eastern Germany and western Germany. THAT'S the reason for the Blitzkrieg tactic. I mean yes, they could have prolonged the first phase of the war, the "Phony War" period, but they didnt...

I'm sorry, but if you don't think that attacking with 1,500,000 men isn't a de facto declaration of war then you have a very odd idea of warfare. Hitler invaded Poland. There was no Polish invasion of Germany. It was Hitler's aggression that started the war.

you're absolutely right, Hitlers aggression did start the war in a sense, BUT the fact remains that there was no declaration of war against Poland. And there was high aggression from the quasi-fascist Polish government against Germany in the years before Germany's ultimate invasion. Poland at one time was considering declaring war against Germany, thinking that England and France will follow suite. Poland even made maps showing a temporary demarcation line behind Berlin.

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
not trying to reduce the crimes of Hitler, I'm just interested in looking at the second world war from a non-biased perspective. There's really a lot of wartime propaganda that carried on after the war and eventually became written history. but the blame eternally resides with the Nazi aggression and Hitler

.... Ok. So who else invaded various countries? France? The UK? Andorra? NO! Germany invaded! Hitler started the war, not Churchill! Hitler was in charge of Germany at a time when Churchill was a backbencher!

it's hard to define the actual start of the war, it's commonly the invasion of Poland by Germany, but Germany did not declare war against Poland. To say it was Hitler's intention of starting a world war is ridiculous, the German generals were frantic about a 2 front war, one on eastern Germany and western Germany. THAT'S the reason for the Blitzkrieg tactic. I mean yes, they could have prolonged the first phase of the war, the "Phony War" period, but they didnt...

Or..... Germany didn't have to start killing the Jewish people or invade other countries.

Holy smokes! You would think with all the sources available for the history of WWII that people would at least get the timeline right.

This thread is shameful. Read a book why don't you?