Should Churchill be seen as a warmonger and partial escalator of WW2?

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
You're partially correct, but they Brits DID break sufficiently the codes for Churchill to know that Hitler gave the order to not bomb civilian areas in England. Yes of course the Nazis were already bombing civilian areas in Europe, BUT not as horrendously as the allies later did. Wielun seemed to be an accident, historically it's not really worked up, but the rest was true

Semantics. If the Germans had had as many aircraft in 1940 as the Allies had by 1944 they would have leveled the centre of as many Allied cities as they could have. They started it.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
You're partially correct, but they Brits DID break sufficiently the codes for Churchill to know that Hitler gave the order to not bomb civilian areas in England. Yes of course the Nazis were already bombing civilian areas in Europe, BUT not as horrendously as the allies later did. Wielun seemed to be an accident, historically it's not really worked up, but the rest was true

Hitler gave that order because he was very busy trying to broker peace with England...Churchill knew such an option was not possible...even if he had wanted it, he knew that that permanent under-secretary, Robert Vansittart had ordered against it. Churchill knew exactly what he was dealing with on both sides, his and Germany's. That is why he was the man of the moment, and why he was so assured of his own destiny in that role.

lol? are you kidding me? peace between Germany and the UK would have ended the war right there. It could have ended EVERYTHING. There was a reason why Hitler at first was reluctant to fight against France, Benelux and the UK.

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
Partially not true, yes the Gleiwitz incident, part of the greater Operation Himmler plans, did happen, but they did not use concentration camp inmates, German agents dressed as Polish militia did it, and nobody was supposed to be killed mind you, although one person was later injured and died. The false flag attack does not take away from the historical facts that there in fact WERE massive border violations, and the League of Nations did nothing after Germany protested multiple times. The Polish were backed BEFORE the 1st of September by the UK, so they were acting very aggressive towards Germany. There were even quasi-battles on the borders between German and Polish militias.

Your source is incorrect. The dead bodies were former inmates of Dachau...they were the proverbial 'canned goods'.

There was certainly animosity between Poland and Germany...but then Germany had made it's intentions clear as part of the Nazi election campaign...but you are blowing a few crossed words entirely out of all proportion...pretty much as Hitler did

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening

Partially not true, yes the Gleiwitz incident, part of the greater Operation Himmler plans, did happen, but they did not use concentration camp inmates, German agents dressed as Polish militia did it, and nobody was supposed to be killed mind you, although one person was later injured and died. The false flag attack does not take away from the historical facts that there in fact WERE massive border violations, and the League of Nations did nothing after Germany protested multiple times. The Polish were backed BEFORE the 1st of September by the UK, so they were acting very aggressive towards Germany. There were even quasi-battles on the borders between German and Polish militias.

So I suppose that Franciszek Honiok just happened to fall on a needle and inject himself, leading to his own death? Before being shot to make it look better?
Fer flips sake, even Wikipedia has the true story about Operation Himmler! (en.wikipedia.org...)

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
You're partially correct, but they Brits DID break sufficiently the codes for Churchill to know that Hitler gave the order to not bomb civilian areas in England. Yes of course the Nazis were already bombing civilian areas in Europe, BUT not as horrendously as the allies later did. Wielun seemed to be an accident, historically it's not really worked up, but the rest was true

Semantics. If the Germans had had as many aircraft in 1940 as the Allies had by 1944 they would have leveled the centre of as many Allied cities as they could have. They started it.

I don't believe that. Only if the war would have gone the way it eventually did. But the vicious fire bombing of German cities was a trait distinctive of the allies.

reply to post by paraphi


Reread my post, I never suggested Churchill was to BLAME. I clarified the point the OP is trying to make about how with better politics WW2 could and should have been avoided.

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening

Partially not true, yes the Gleiwitz incident, part of the greater Operation Himmler plans, did happen, but they did not use concentration camp inmates, German agents dressed as Polish militia did it, and nobody was supposed to be killed mind you, although one person was later injured and died. The false flag attack does not take away from the historical facts that there in fact WERE massive border violations, and the League of Nations did nothing after Germany protested multiple times. The Polish were backed BEFORE the 1st of September by the UK, so they were acting very aggressive towards Germany. There were even quasi-battles on the borders between German and Polish militias.

So I suppose that Franciszek Honiok just happened to fall on a needle and inject himself, leading to his own death? Before being shot to make it look better?
Fer flips sake, even Wikipedia has the true story about Operation Himmler! (en.wikipedia.org...)

edit on 14-1-2013 by AngryCymraeg because: Typo

oh I didn't know that, sorry! I thought he was accidentally killed, mind you, it says it's not clear how exactly the person was killed

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
Believe it or not, Hitler actually offered to disarm together with Britain and France PRIOR to the outbreak of war.

I am sure you could back up this assertion with well sourced factual evidence. No. Thought not. Great Britain under Prime Minister Chamberlain tried to appease Hitler in order to delay or temper the ambitions of Hitler, but that did not work.

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
And the German ambition for Europe was initially not war. It's hard to imagine that nowadays, but the initial ambition of Hitler's Germany was a partnership with the UK,

Again, the historical evidence is not really there to support your assertion. What may have started as a “reunification of German ppeoples” went out of control when nations like Poland were attacked. I cannot see how you can ignore the facts. Germany may have sought some peace with Great Britain, but only after Western Europe had been rolled over. Besides, there were never (that's never) any formal peace negotiations.

Revisionism.

Regards

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
peace between Germany and the UK would have ended the war right there. It could have ended EVERYTHING.

Yes, it would have ended all the countries in Europe, there would have only been germany....

There was a reason why Hitler at first was reluctant to fight against France, Benelux and the UK.

he was not reluctant to fight them, they were stopping him owning all of europe.

but keep up with your revisionsim fairy tales....

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
lol? are you kidding me? peace between Germany and the UK would have ended the war right there. It could have ended EVERYTHING. There was a reason why Hitler at first was reluctant to fight against France, Benelux and the UK.

Well of course 'peace' would have ended the war...doh!

Hitler never wanted war with Britain...not then anyway...in Mein Kampf he clearly stated that he wanted to 'walk hand in hand' with Britain...with Germany in control of the 'world island' and Britain in control of the sea ways...that is why so many in Britain were willing to invest money in the Nazi war machine.

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
Partially not true, yes the Gleiwitz incident, part of the greater Operation Himmler plans, did happen, but they did not use concentration camp inmates, German agents dressed as Polish militia did it, and nobody was supposed to be killed mind you, although one person was later injured and died. The false flag attack does not take away from the historical facts that there in fact WERE massive border violations, and the League of Nations did nothing after Germany protested multiple times. The Polish were backed BEFORE the 1st of September by the UK, so they were acting very aggressive towards Germany. There were even quasi-battles on the borders between German and Polish militias.

Your source is incorrect. The dead bodies were former inmates of Dachau...they were the proverbial 'canned goods'.

There was certainly animosity between Poland and Germany...but then Germany had made it's intentions clear as part of the Nazi election campaign...but you are blowing a few crossed words entirely out of all proportion...pretty much as Hitler did

It's of course hard to prove or even to believe that there were in fact border battles between Germany and Poland when you have a false flag like the Gleiwitz incident...

Originally posted by hellobruce

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
peace between Germany and the UK would have ended the war right there. It could have ended EVERYTHING.

Yes, it would have ended all the countries in Europe, there would have only been germany....

There was a reason why Hitler at first was reluctant to fight against France, Benelux and the UK.

he was not reluctant to fight them, they were stopping him owning all of europe.

but keep up with your revisionsim fairy tales....

edit on 14-1-2013 by hellobruce because: (no reason given)

You don't seriously believe that the sovereign west European states would have become part of a larger Europe?? Hitler was looking to the east, not the west.

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
It's of course hard to prove or even to believe that there were in fact border battles between Germany and Poland when you have a false flag like the Gleiwitz incident...

Not really, the documentary evidence from Germany, from the Nazis themselves, is pretty explicit on the matter. Heydrich got quite the dressing down for messing up the whole thing...luckily he was hugely effective in other respects, so it did not overly diminish Hitler's reliance and trust in him.

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
I don't believe that. Only if the war would have gone the way it eventually did. But the vicious fire bombing of German cities was a trait distinctive of the allies.

????? Sorry but what??? In the Bombing of Warsaw the Germans dropped tonnes of high explosive and incendiaries. In the bombing of Rotterdam they dropped high explosives. During the Blitz on London they dropped high explosives and incendiaries. Isn't that also vicious fire bombing???

According to the Luftwaffe war diaries, Luftwaffe bomber pilots bombed London first, the Berlin raids were in retaliation, the first raids by British bombers over Germany were just leaflet raids.

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
You're partially correct, but they Brits DID break sufficiently the codes for Churchill to know that Hitler gave the order to not bomb civilian areas in England. Yes of course the Nazis were already bombing civilian areas in Europe, BUT not as horrendously as the allies later did. Wielun seemed to be an accident, historically it's not really worked up, but the rest was true

Hitler gave that order because he was very busy trying to broker peace with England...Churchill knew such an option was not possible...even if he had wanted it, he knew that that permanent under-secretary, Robert Vansittart had ordered against it. Churchill knew exactly what he was dealing with on both sides, his and Germany's. That is why he was the man of the moment, and why he was so assured of his own destiny in that role.

lol? are you kidding me? peace between Germany and the UK would have ended the war right there. It could have ended EVERYTHING. There was a reason why Hitler at first was reluctant to fight against France, Benelux and the UK.

Peace between the UK and Germany would have been just that. That would not have changed the fate of France or the USSR. The only reason Germanty wanted peace with the UK was so they could take care of buisness without the worry of the Brits sailing around causing trouble. A more agressive UK and France early on might have scared the Germans into taking Hitler out and avoiding the war. Of course at the time the UK and France were doing anything to avoid war giving Hitler the PR he needed to role over his Generals reveal them as being weak. This nonsense about Churchill is just that nonsense.

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
It's of course hard to prove or even to believe that there were in fact border battles between Germany and Poland when you have a false flag like the Gleiwitz incident...

Well they seem to have been rather one-sided border battles. A lot of mysterious "Poles" kept appearing and then dying.

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
You don't seriously believe that the sovereign west European states would have become part of a larger Europe?? Hitler was looking to the east, not the west.

Now that is true. And that is where Churchill's devious brilliance comes in...because he knew that, but he didn't share that information with France et al. In one of the key peace overtures from Hitler, he agreed to give up France and the low countries, but that Poland should remain, under discussion with Britain, neutral...this information was kept from the French government in exile.

I think Hitlers "Mein Kampf" which he wrote in 1925 pretty much set out what he was about and what he hoped and desired Germany could achieve...he even talked about gassing the Jewish people in "Mein Kampf" and If I remember correctly even said that if sacrificing millions of soldiers only brought about the gassing of 15000 Jews their sacrifice would not be in vain!.

That doesn't sound like a man who was only pre- occupied with border issues.........

reply to post by SaturnFX

Poland at the time was its own soverign state...and Germany invaded them...regardless if they seen it as a invasion, or a happy troop movement of enlightenment through firearms.

I am staying out of this on I see very few facts being tossed around.Other than yours.