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Should Churchill be seen as a warmonger and partial escalator of WW2?

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posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 05:05 PM
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Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
it's hard to define the actual start of the war, it's commonly the invasion of Poland by Germany, but Germany did not declare war against Poland. To say it was Hitler's intention of starting a world war is ridiculous, the German generals were frantic about a 2 front war, one on eastern Germany and western Germany. THAT'S the reason for the Blitzkrieg tactic. I mean yes, they could have prolonged the first phase of the war, the "Phony War" period, but they didnt...


I'm sorry, but if you don't think that attacking with 1,500,000 men isn't a de facto declaration of war then you have a very odd idea of warfare. Hitler invaded Poland. There was no Polish invasion of Germany. It was Hitler's aggression that started the war.


And let us not forget the Esatzgruppen and T4 units sent in the Wehrmacht's wake to ensure that all opposition was removed and that the country was thoroughly euthanised and ethnically cleansed. Every male over the age of 14 of Slavic descent murdered...summarily...

That's super aggressive in my book.


as much as I feel bad about correcting something that is horrendous, but for historical accuracy, it's not true that every male over 14 was killed, where in the world did you read that?? The Einsatzgruppen were elite troops sent out to eliminate partisans and other collaborative elements of the Polish population. In that group were large amounts of Jews. There were a lot of horrendous shootings in the backlands, but there was no order to literally kill everybody in sight




posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 05:05 PM
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reply to post by ConservativeAwakening
 


All these claims amounting nothing more to semantics without citations. Each time someone brings up a valid point you just come back with "well kinda sorta, but if you look at it another way Hitler was just eating a cheeseburger"



posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 05:06 PM
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Originally posted by bknapple32
reply to post by ConservativeAwakening
 


All these claims amounting nothing more to semantics without citations. Each time someone brings up a valid point you just come back with "well kinda sorta, but if you look at it another way Hitler was just eating a cheeseburger"


lol, you do the same buddy



posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 05:09 PM
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Originally posted by bknapple32
reply to post by ConservativeAwakening
 


All these claims amounting nothing more to semantics without citations. Each time someone brings up a valid point you just come back with "well kinda sorta, but if you look at it another way Hitler was just eating a cheeseburger"


look at your posts here, you don't list any sources either sir?



posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 05:09 PM
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Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
it's hard to define the actual start of the war, it's commonly the invasion of Poland by Germany, but Germany did not declare war against Poland. To say it was Hitler's intention of starting a world war is ridiculous, the German generals were frantic about a 2 front war, one on eastern Germany and western Germany. THAT'S the reason for the Blitzkrieg tactic. I mean yes, they could have prolonged the first phase of the war, the "Phony War" period, but they didnt...


I'm sorry, but if you don't think that attacking with 1,500,000 men isn't a de facto declaration of war then you have a very odd idea of warfare. Hitler invaded Poland. There was no Polish invasion of Germany. It was Hitler's aggression that started the war.


And let us not forget the Esatzgruppen and T4 units sent in the Wehrmacht's wake to ensure that all opposition was removed and that the country was thoroughly euthanised and ethnically cleansed. Every male over the age of 14 of Slavic descent murdered...summarily...

That's super aggressive in my book.


as much as I feel bad about correcting something that is horrendous, but for historical accuracy, it's not true that every male over 14 was killed, where in the world did you read that?? The Einsatzgruppen were elite troops sent out to eliminate partisans and other collaborative elements of the Polish population. In that group were large amounts of Jews. There were a lot of horrendous shootings in the backlands, but there was no order to literally kill everybody in sight


Once again you've been misled. The Einsatzegruppen were systematically killing jews, using the excuse that they were partisans to try to hide their crimes from a watching world. Small children could hardly be described as partisans could they ? In West Russia they were even worse ! Many massacres of innocent civilians.
edit on 14-1-2013 by Hopeforeveryone because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 05:09 PM
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reply to post by ConservativeAwakening
 


I'm not the one with the wild claim. I may be coming off a little harsh, but the burden of proof is on you.



posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 05:10 PM
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Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
as much as I feel bad about correcting something that is horrendous, but for historical accuracy, it's not true that every male over 14 was killed, where in the world did you read that?? The Einsatzgruppen were elite troops sent out to eliminate partisans and other collaborative elements of the Polish population. In that group were large amounts of Jews. There were a lot of horrendous shootings in the backlands, but there was no order to literally kill everybody in sight


For starters, I suggest that you read Masters of Death by Richard Rhodes.

The Einsatzgruppen were hardly elite



posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 05:11 PM
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Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
as much as I feel bad about correcting something that is horrendous, but for historical accuracy, it's not true that every male over 14 was killed, where in the world did you read that?? The Einsatzgruppen were elite troops sent out to eliminate partisans and other collaborative elements of the Polish population. In that group were large amounts of Jews. There were a lot of horrendous shootings in the backlands, but there was no order to literally kill everybody in sight


For starters, I suggest that you read Masters of Death by Richard Rhodes.

The Einsatzgruppen were hardly elite


Well said, again.



posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 05:12 PM
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Originally posted by Hopeforeveryone
Once again you've been misled. The Einsatzegruppen were systematically killing jews, using the excuse that they were partisans to try to hide their crimes from a watching world. Small children could hardly be described as partisans could they ? In West Russia they were even worse ! Many massacres of innocent civilians.


That was later, during Barbarossa.



posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 05:14 PM
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Originally posted by Hopeforeveryone

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
it's hard to define the actual start of the war, it's commonly the invasion of Poland by Germany, but Germany did not declare war against Poland. To say it was Hitler's intention of starting a world war is ridiculous, the German generals were frantic about a 2 front war, one on eastern Germany and western Germany. THAT'S the reason for the Blitzkrieg tactic. I mean yes, they could have prolonged the first phase of the war, the "Phony War" period, but they didnt...


I'm sorry, but if you don't think that attacking with 1,500,000 men isn't a de facto declaration of war then you have a very odd idea of warfare. Hitler invaded Poland. There was no Polish invasion of Germany. It was Hitler's aggression that started the war.


And let us not forget the Esatzgruppen and T4 units sent in the Wehrmacht's wake to ensure that all opposition was removed and that the country was thoroughly euthanised and ethnically cleansed. Every male over the age of 14 of Slavic descent murdered...summarily...

That's super aggressive in my book.


as much as I feel bad about correcting something that is horrendous, but for historical accuracy, it's not true that every male over 14 was killed, where in the world did you read that?? The Einsatzgruppen were elite troops sent out to eliminate partisans and other collaborative elements of the Polish population. In that group were large amounts of Jews. There were a lot of horrendous shootings in the backlands, but there was no order to literally kill everybody in sight


Once again you've been misled. The Einsatzegruppen were systematically killing jews, using the excuse that they were partisans to try to hide their crimes from a watching world. Small children could hardly be described as partisans could they ? In West Russia they were even worse ! Many massacres of innocent civilians.
edit on 14-1-2013 by Hopeforeveryone because: (no reason given)


I know this is really sensitive to talk about, that's why I rather shouldn't, but in is not entirely true that the Einsatzgruppen were only killing jews. After 1933, a large amount of Jews fled to Poland (where they were equally treated bad, Poland was also anti-semitic), there were large amounts of partisans that were Jewish and Communists. Of course the massacres were completely horrible....but historically speaking, large portions of Jews were partisans and communists which resisted the Nazis rightfully
edit on 14-1-2013 by ConservativeAwakening because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 05:15 PM
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Originally posted by AngryCymraeg

Originally posted by digital01anarchy
as other posters have said it was sanctions imposed after WW1 that caused WW2 also it was primary the British along with other European countries that started WW1 not Germany. After the war a large amount of wealthy Jewish moved into Germany taking advantage of a highly sanctioned and poor country buying up large amounts of property and businesses. They paid the Germans very low wages and could get around the sanctions claiming not to be of German ancestry. We all know what came next, They forced the Jewish to wear the star of David on their clothing which was ironic, they then took back the land and property they had acquired during the sanctions. As kid after learning about WW2 i wanted to know why the Germans hated the Jewish so much and looked into it. Our history books make it sound like they just decided one day they didnt like them and the people had been EVIL ect which is nonsense. Now in no way does that mean it was right of the Germans to do what they did but it paints a clearer picture as to why they did it.
edit on 14-1-2013 by digital01anarchy because: (no reason given)


......Total honk.
10 of the 30 wealthiest people in Germany after WW1 had been Jewish look it up
edit on 14-1-2013 by digital01anarchy because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 05:16 PM
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Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
I know this is really sensitive to talk about, that's why I rather shouldn't, but in is not entirely true that the Einsatzgruppen were only killing jews. After 1933, a large amount of Jews fled to Poland (where they were equally treated bad, Poland was also anti-semitic), there were large amounts of partisans that were Jewish and Communists. Of course the massacres were completely horrible....but historically speaking, large portions of Jews were partisans and communists which resisted the Nazis rightfully
edit on 14-1-2013 by ConservativeAwakening because: (no reason given)


And your point is what exactly?



posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 05:17 PM
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Originally posted by AngryCymraeg

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
I know this is really sensitive to talk about, that's why I rather shouldn't, but in is not entirely true that the Einsatzgruppen were only killing jews. After 1933, a large amount of Jews fled to Poland (where they were equally treated bad, Poland was also anti-semitic), there were large amounts of partisans that were Jewish and Communists. Of course the massacres were completely horrible....but historically speaking, large portions of Jews were partisans and communists which resisted the Nazis rightfully
edit on 14-1-2013 by ConservativeAwakening because: (no reason given)


And your point is what exactly?


exactly what I said.



posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 05:18 PM
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Originally posted by digital01anarchy

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg

Originally posted by digital01anarchy
as other posters have said it was sanctions imposed after WW1 that caused WW2 also it was primary the British along with other European countries that started WW1 not Germany. After the war a large amount of wealthy Jewish moved into Germany taking advantage of a highly sanctioned and poor country buying up large amounts of property and businesses. They paid the Germans very low wages and could get around the sanctions claiming not to be of German ancestry. We all know what came next, They forced the Jewish to wear the star of David on their clothing which was ironic, they then took back the land and property they had acquired during the sanctions. As kid after learning about WW2 i wanted to know why the Germans hated the Jewish so much and looked into it. Our history books make it sound like they just decided one day they didnt like them and the people had been EVIL ect which is nonsense. Now in no way does that mean it was right of the Germans to do what they did but it paints a clearer picture as to why they did it.
edit on 14-1-2013 by digital01anarchy because: (no reason given)


......Total honk.
10 of the 30 wealthiest people in Germany after WW1 had been Jewish look it up
edit on 14-1-2013 by digital01anarchy because: (no reason given)


Even if that's true (which I doubt) it doesn't prove your point about the mass invasion of Germany by ebil jews who exploited the sanctions that... weren't actually there at the time. So - still total honk.



posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 05:18 PM
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Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by Hopeforeveryone
Once again you've been misled. The Einsatzegruppen were systematically killing jews, using the excuse that they were partisans to try to hide their crimes from a watching world. Small children could hardly be described as partisans could they ? In West Russia they were even worse ! Many massacres of innocent civilians.


That was later, during Barbarossa.


Well they were killing off the intelligensia in Poland (60,000 aprox) so i assume they were just carring on the behaviour they'd picked up in Poland. Some of the attrocities in the warsaw ghetto are beyond belief. In Hitlers Armenian quote "...with orders for them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish race and language. Only in this way can we obtain the living space we need."



posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 05:18 PM
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Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening

Originally posted by Hopeforeveryone

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
it's hard to define the actual start of the war, it's commonly the invasion of Poland by Germany, but Germany did not declare war against Poland. To say it was Hitler's intention of starting a world war is ridiculous, the German generals were frantic about a 2 front war, one on eastern Germany and western Germany. THAT'S the reason for the Blitzkrieg tactic. I mean yes, they could have prolonged the first phase of the war, the "Phony War" period, but they didnt...


I'm sorry, but if you don't think that attacking with 1,500,000 men isn't a de facto declaration of war then you have a very odd idea of warfare. Hitler invaded Poland. There was no Polish invasion of Germany. It was Hitler's aggression that started the war.


And let us not forget the Esatzgruppen and T4 units sent in the Wehrmacht's wake to ensure that all opposition was removed and that the country was thoroughly euthanised and ethnically cleansed. Every male over the age of 14 of Slavic descent murdered...summarily...

That's super aggressive in my book.


as much as I feel bad about correcting something that is horrendous, but for historical accuracy, it's not true that every male over 14 was killed, where in the world did you read that?? The Einsatzgruppen were elite troops sent out to eliminate partisans and other collaborative elements of the Polish population. In that group were large amounts of Jews. There were a lot of horrendous shootings in the backlands, but there was no order to literally kill everybody in sight


Once again you've been misled. The Einsatzegruppen were systematically killing jews, using the excuse that they were partisans to try to hide their crimes from a watching world. Small children could hardly be described as partisans could they ? In West Russia they were even worse ! Many massacres of innocent civilians.
edit on 14-1-2013 by Hopeforeveryone because: (no reason given)


I know this is really sensitive to talk about, that's why I rather shouldn't, but in is not entirely true that the Einsatzgruppen were only killing jews. After 1933, a large amount of Jews fled to Poland (where they were equally treated bad, Poland was also anti-semitic), there were large amounts of partisans that were Jewish and Communists. Of course the massacres were completely horrible....but historically speaking, large portions of Jews were partisans and communists which resisted the Nazis rightfully


Jews were not specifically murdered, for being Jewish, until 1941. The majority of Jews from the occupied territories were ghettoised. Those Jews that were massacred, following the invasion of Poland, were killed primarily because they were Slavic (Ethnic Poles) or considered as ideological opposition.



posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 05:19 PM
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Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg

Originally posted by ConservativeAwakening
I know this is really sensitive to talk about, that's why I rather shouldn't, but in is not entirely true that the Einsatzgruppen were only killing jews. After 1933, a large amount of Jews fled to Poland (where they were equally treated bad, Poland was also anti-semitic), there were large amounts of partisans that were Jewish and Communists. Of course the massacres were completely horrible....but historically speaking, large portions of Jews were partisans and communists which resisted the Nazis rightfully
edit on 14-1-2013 by ConservativeAwakening because: (no reason given)


And your point is what exactly?


exactly what I said.


I think that you'll find that the truth is a lot more complicated than that. And I dislike your inference that Jewish = Communist.



posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 05:20 PM
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reply to post by ConservativeAwakening
 


They also killed teachers, priests, factory owners, anyone who was of a class who could offer any kind of resistance.



posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 05:21 PM
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Originally posted by Hopeforeveryone

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by Hopeforeveryone
Once again you've been misled. The Einsatzegruppen were systematically killing jews, using the excuse that they were partisans to try to hide their crimes from a watching world. Small children could hardly be described as partisans could they ? In West Russia they were even worse ! Many massacres of innocent civilians.


That was later, during Barbarossa.


Well they were killing off the intelligensia in Poland (60,000 aprox) so i assume they were just carring on the behaviour they'd picked up in Poland. Some of the attrocities in the warsaw ghetto are beyond belief. In Hitlers Armenian quote "...with orders for them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish race and language. Only in this way can we obtain the living space we need."


that was actually what the Soviets were doing in western Poland, Katyn and the other 5 or 6 large scale massacres of the Polish people. and that quote is actually believed to be a fake, it is based on a real speech he gave to I think his generals or other military staff, but it's supposedly faked during the Nuremberg trials and presented as evidence.



posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 05:22 PM
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the OP stated..
"the sad thing is that most likely the Holocaust would not have been able to manifest if the war had not escalated in late 1940. People seem to forget that the actual goal of the Nazi Regime was not to destroy and plunge and exterminate, but to build up a new social order in Germany and work with the UK on European domination."

The nazis were gearing up to the holocaust long before marching into Poland.
I assume from the tenet of your argument you see no problem with the stated goals and the resultant forced social order and European domination. Your obvious defence of this form of political application leaves me wondering where you have sourced you're material from.


peace



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