The Problem of Good vs. Evil (A tribute to Carl Jung by Alan Watts)

My hope is that people might, in taking this in and evaluating it, come to recognize, in Jesus Christ, and their relationship to God the absolute (transcendent of good and evil), not another duality, another basis for guilt, another separation from the Absolute Goodness of God in Christ conditional upon their acceptance or rejection of a strict doctrine of salvation - but instead, a unifying and reintegrative and regenerative principal of self-forgiveness capable of reintegrating the fractured human being and making him whole again, even within the context of the entire brotherhood of man within which he is immersed.

Anything less is neither formative, nor functional, where no real and authentic Christian could possibly consider himself part of an exclusive club whereby everyone else, conditional upon their belief or lack thereof, is either saved by grace, or, destined to hell, because such condemnation doesn't reside in Christ, and neither is Christ divided, taking on as he did, responsibility for the whole of human sin and evil, in an absolute and radical transformative forgiveness.

And of the Christian who sells the conditional exclusive doctrine of salvation (or go to hell) while neither should they be condemned for their ignorance, they most certainly ought to have the beam removed from their eye, something that can only take place when the rest of us remove the splinter from our own eye, that we might see clearly the divine logic of the Lord, here described by Watts in his tribute to Carl Jung, so that we might find and achieve the Peace of the heart and soul that transcends all understanding (a Peace not of this world of conflict, suffering, sorrows and strife).

There is also no use "believing in" a Jesus that we cannot understand nor sympathize with or relate to, like some separative idol of worship, no the only path to being a real "Christian" is to strive to know him and to make the attempt to try to see things from his own POV, without reducing him and his Great Work to a simplistic formula and as a ticket to heaven that we did not earn i.e.: without being transformed by it as a spiritual/religious experience.

A dry and stale Christianity is no Christianity, at all.

We can and we must do better. We must seek to understand and only then to be understood. And we cannot share out of that which we do not already possess..

Sorry... have to bump this thread right now because I am super busy doing laundry but am listening to the video... will come back and give thoughts.

Jenn

Re: On Buddhism vs. the Ego.

"What does it profit a man to gain the WHOLE world, but lose his own soul?"

Anything less is neither formative, nor functional, where no real and authentic Christian could possibly consider himself part of an exclusive club whereby everyone else, conditional upon their belief or lack thereof, is either saved by grace, or, destined to hell, because such condemnation doesn't reside in Christ, and neither is Christ divided, taking on as he did, responsibility for the whole of human sin and evil, in an absolute and radical transformative forgiveness.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


This above is WHY I do love Jesus.... and not the cult of Christianity.

Great video... so needed the intellect thought today.

Understanding good and evil is key... and so I build the mind.

Thanks for the great and oh so true thoughts.... as far as Im concerned anyway.

reply to post by MamaJ

To distinguish and differentiate it, without condemning it's individual participants, I call it "Churchianity" because in certain ways, much of what it teaches and preaches isn't "Christian" at all, and if Jesus himself were in the pews, he would surely stand up and object rather vehemently, maybe even throw a few Bibles around and create quite a scene before being forcibly ejected from the building..

reply to post by NewAgeMan


As you review this video, it might be helpful to know the difference between a seeking Christian and a wandering sinner. We are all sinners. This is true. The point of involution (Baptism) into the material world is to repent (Turn the other direction away from desire). Involution is necessary, just as Lu Tzu points out here:

After a person has the one tone of individualization behind them, they will be born outward according
to the circumstances, and not until he is old will he turn a single time to the backward-flowing way. The
force of the Light exhausts itself and trickles away. That brings the nine-fold darkness (of rebirths) into
the world. In the book Leng Yen it is said: By concentrating the thoughts, one can fly; by concentrating
the desires, one falls. When a pupil takes little care of his thoughts and much care of his desires, he
gets into the path of depravity. Only through contemplation and quietness does true intuition arise; for
that, the backward-flowing method is necessary.

Circulating the light (NOUS) between opposites is the process of building the next body (Robe) on the tree of life. Baptism is rebirth. Jesus said, "You must be born again." If you know the keys to what is being said by me and the other two light sources above, you unfold the flower. Golden Flower

It's easy to say the Christian is a judge of others. It's harder to judge yourself rightly by the light of the truth they shine. Light cannot be seen, as noted in the PDF linked above. Light can only reveal what it hits and allow the eyes to circulate the image in the eye. The heart is the seat of desire and is the alternate room used to house the body. A true Christian is developing intuition and nous by reflecting the true image of light from God. Don't confuse the light with the one carrying it. The one carrying it is just as much a part of the downward spiral as any of us. We are all in this together and one soul. Atonement (At One Ment) is reaching back to the unity from where we come. The Christian is following the best light available, but intention of desire determines what is desired. Many Christians use the light incorrectly. Don't we all? This is the point of not judging. Instead, be judged by what the light reveals.

Your New Robe (Body) and Crown (MIND).

Backward flow is necessary for us to fly upward. The sun rises and evaporates the dew. Droplets of water are distilled by the process. That's baptism and a picture of the entire pool of water. We are all drowning in matter together. Only one can bring us up and out. We'll never do it on our own.

Oh! I get it: If you don't sin, then Jesus died in vain.

I can live with that....

Originally posted by Ex_CT2
Oh! I get it: If you don't sin, then Jesus died in vain.

I can live with that....

We live in vain if we fail to take the name. What is the name? Love. Love keeps no records of wrongs. Have you ever considered why we see both darkness and light in the Bible? Why does the meeting point of the Viscia Pisces begin at unity, expand to multiplicity and then return to unity? Why does the Lord in Genesis 2 seem vastly different than the Lord in 1 Samuel? Why is Christ at unity with the Father in Matthew when baptized? Why are the first four days (4000 years) between these times the same as the ratio between points on the Viscia Pisces (Unity and Multiplicity)? Why will the same cycle of light happen again from Jesus Death and resurrection 2000 years ago to today? Why is the coming day of the Lord only 1000 years? See the link above and you will see why Peter caught 153 fish. He must be on the right side of truth to find unity instead of being divided from the light.

Jesus died for you. We do the same for Him.

It's easy to say the Christian is a judge of others. It's harder to judge yourself rightly by the light of the truth they shine. Light cannot be seen, as noted in the PDF linked above. Light can only reveal what it hits and allow the eyes to circulate the image in the eye. The heart is the seat of desire and is the alternate room used to house the body. A true Christian is developing intuition and nous by reflecting the true image of light from God. Don't confuse the light with the one carrying it. The one carrying it is just as much a part of the downward spiral as any of us. We are all in this together and one soul. Atonement (At One Ment) is reaching back to the unity from where we come. The Christian is following the best light available, but intention of desire determines what is desired. Many Christians use the light incorrectly. Don't we all? This is the point of not judging. Instead, be judged by what the light reveals.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


Most definitely... cannot disagee with your thoughts at all. Do I ever?

I have been judged more by the "Christian group" than any other group when I was aligned with them and considered myself one. I still love them.... just do not seek to be around anyone who thinks they know they are going to be with God one day and tell me I won't. lol Just not the kind of friends I like to have around me. Would I help them in a time of need? Sure!!

I seek light from others and not condemnation and this is the reason why I align myself with no group. We are all human... and none of us can say where one will go in the after life. We just do not have that type of authority.

Here is another great lecture I just got through listening to.

reply to post by MamaJ


I'm right behind you--rolling the rock away from the tomb. Eventually, I'll find a way to come out of Egypt as well. I know there is a door somewhere.

reply to post by MamaJ


Here's something else to think about from the PDF (Golden Flower) that I linked above.

In the book of the Secret Correspondences, it is said: Release is in the eye. In the Simple Questions of
the Yellow Ruler, it is said: The seed-blossom of the human body must be concentrated upward in the
empty space. That refers to it. Immortality is contained in this sentence and also the overcoming of the
world is contained in it. That is the common goal of all religions.

Compare this to the Yellow Robe of the Dhammapada (Choices 1). Compare this to the Hebrew emanation into the empty space God created within Himself and the one we continually seek to fill with the world.

Ein Sof

If only people would bother to match symbols and names across languages, they might start to construct a larger view of the world. Like I said, I'm with you. There is so much more to the story in the NT than most people realize. I witnessed this today in church. The "Bible Scholar" that was a guest in the pulpit today was describing the sleeping neighbor asking for bread for a guest. He went a new direction I had never seen before and when the sermon was over, I approached him and asked if he knew the Hebrew tradition of "Bread of Shame." Of course, he did not. I didn't say it, but I thought how sad this is that he is preaching a sermon on the topic apart from the root of what he is preaching. It's pointless to say anything. I would simply be seen as the person outside the theological box they have constructed. More and more, I see this divide between myself and the those I know. I am thankful for this, yet sad at the same time.

Bread of Shame

Originally posted by Ex_CT2
Oh! I get it: If you don't sin, then Jesus died in vain.

I can live with that....

It's not an invitation to sin, but a challenge posed to forgive and reintegrate and to be made whole, and if you must sin, do it with with courage, that there is hope that it will not overtake you, hope that it can be redeemed, reintegrated and transformed, and then left behind like a husk while the new life and motivation germinated in sin's lesson, puts down new roots, as a shoot emerges in the light of love as a domain of freedom, not to sin, since the impulse to sin has been undone in the desire for true happiness, peace, love joy and the satisfaction of wholeness and integrity, but to fully love, including the love of self and the other as self as we are already loved, by God (as evidenced by virtue of our own inclusion).

Jesus "died" or took on sin and sorrow while remaining obedient even to the point OF death, so that he might also bring us along with him in the triumph and the joy of the resurrected life on the other side of the tomb.

It is an invitation into a new domain of possibility and reintegration and free and full authentic self expression, "set free for the sake of freedom to freely love as we are loved" where to love and be loved is the only thing that truly satisfies, so even though it comes in the form of an unmerited gift of grace, is it not the bread of shame, but the bread of life freely given because of love, real love of the kind capable of reintegrating ourselves relative to our own prior sinful nature and thus reconciling ourselves to God (as the all in all).

Properly understood, and received, it's a real marvel, not the kind of thing to be causally mocked in ignorance although I'm sure you can be forgiven the oversight, or undersightedness of the idea that Jesus' love expressed through the cross is a permissive framework to sin, which can be seen for the absurdity that it is especially when we are courageous enough to pick up our own cross and follow him, a cross made all the lighter for us because of his own heavy lifting. "..and I will give you rest, because my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

Jesus did not wag an accusatory finger at everyone, nor was he "sent" to condemn the world, but he was certainly sent to try to teach us something of great worth and value. Maybe now we're slowly but surely reaching a point where we might begin to understand his method, and his innermost heart's desire and passion.

The real question is what are we really passionate about? What do we REALLY want if not to be whole again, reunified, reintegrated or in the word of Carl Jung, fully "individuated" or self-realized?

It's the point where the rubber really meets the road and goes places far and wide, when we can love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us, and that's a challenge that can be taken up by either Christian or non-Christian alike (who are often persecuted, ironically, by Christians for ah not being Christian).

Strangely, there is nothing about it that one can rebel against, and yet at the same time it's a love capable of serving the highest standard of a severe justice and a tender mercy, while making no compromise with sin and evil (and thus giving it little choice but to either flee or be transformed in a radical forgiveness, lol).

It just doesn't work and function according to the standard doctrine of salvation, unless and until it's understood with comprehension in the light of personal spiritual experience.

It's a different kind of Liberty of a whole other order which transcends the law of should and shouldn't inviting us into an exploration of "the oughtness of the isness of being" where all the joy and treasure is available.

So it amounts to power, really, or empowerment (including psychic and spiritual power) where power is the freedom to choose, with awareness i.e.: no longer a slave to sin.

It's funny though how everyone's still looking for a loophole based on their own ignorance and desire to keep sinning which is why the deeper truths of Christianity probably don't sell very well, even though they are the most precious of treasures to be had.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
A dry and stale Christianity is no Christianity, at all.

We can and we must do better.

Maybe that's why the solar-disc wafers are so dry and crunchy..

Originally posted by MamaJ
Here is another great lecture I just got through listening to.

Thank you so much for sharing that. It was very good. I don't agree with his Easter Bible burning idea however, because I am glad to know of Jesus and his teachings which I would not have been aware of without the Bible, although I do agree that the spirit is with us, with some among us, although across large swaths of humanity, sadly he is rather conspicuously absent.

The only thing that I think Watts misses in regards to Jesus and his mission and teachings was the degree to which Jesus understood, clearly, the psychological and spiritual limitations or constraints or the bondage of sin and evil which separated us from the love of God, and who thus sought, with everything he had, to Liberate us from those limitations or constraints, so that we too might be able to take our place and accept our rightful inheritance of the sonship of God not by our own doing whereby God can do for us what we could not do for ourselves. This is the Gospel of the good news, which although it amounts to the same thing, evokes in the recipient, a heartfelt gratitude and love in kind, forming the seed or the wellspring of that individual's salvation, and so the Grace of God, even the intercessory Grace was needed, and Jesus the one to get the required job done. So while we ought not particularize and worship Jesus as an idol, there is an inevitable reaction and response to what has been communicated through Him where it may be said that the meaning of communication is the response you get or evoke.

"Our Liberation is God's compulsion."
~ C.S. Lewis

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

As you review this video, it might be helpful to know the difference between a seeking Christian and a wandering sinner. We are all sinners. This is true. The point of involution (Baptism) into the material world is to repent (Turn the other direction away from desire). Involution is necessary, just as Lu Tzu points out here:

But to be alive is to be attached, at some level and there is always a desire, a human impulse for something better, an attachment to an outcome of some kind, the only question being what, to what object are we attached and in what direction, and to what pursuit, is our desire and our passion directed? I believe that there is an object of love, one that Jesus found, and invited us to share, a healthy attachment of desire and passion where it may be said that there is no amount of Christ capable of ruining a personality..

Then eventually we start to roll into it, with increasing integrity and wholeness and it feels good, feels right, and therein resides our satisfaction, and endless joy.

Nothing dies, it only transforms, reintegrated, forgiven, invited to participate along with the rest of the whole person, a new life, yet something both old AND new, since it's like getting handed back something that we only felt and were able to appreciate as little children, like a happy homecoming.

Originally posted by Ex_CT2
Oh! I get it: If you don't sin, then Jesus died in vain.

I can live with that....

Good thing every single person on planet Earth is a sinner, huh?

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

you unfold the flower. Golden Flower

Master Lu Tzu said: Yu Ching has left behind him a magic spell for the Far Journey:

Words crystallize the spirit in the place of power.

The sixth month the white snow is suddenly seen to fly.

The third watch the disk of the sun sends out shining rays.

The water blows the wind of gentleness.

Wandering in Heaven, one eats the spirit-power of the receptive.

The deeper secret within the secret:

land that is nowhere, that is the true home.

OMG, this part is incredible. That's my experience I must have a flowering flower going on, that's fantastic!

I would like to add a line, if I might..

Humorous knowledge brings lasting joy of celebration.

Originally posted by MamaJ

Anything less is neither formative, nor functional, where no real and authentic Christian could possibly consider himself part of an exclusive club whereby everyone else, conditional upon their belief or lack thereof, is either saved by grace, or, destined to hell, because such condemnation doesn't reside in Christ, and neither is Christ divided, taking on as he did, responsibility for the whole of human sin and evil, in an absolute and radical transformative forgiveness.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

This above is WHY I do love Jesus....

Blessed are YOU then for having an actual REASON for loving him..! (I really mean that wholeheartedly)

It's something, a realization or a recognition in my experience, sure to cause the whole of a person to giggle, if not yet, then soon. It is the deep humor of understanding in the knowledge of personal experience, generally a joke had at the expense of all our prior unrecognized folly, in the light of forgiveness and self acceptance. It's an understanding arrived at by reason, and logic, but one that also contains embedded within itself, the peace and the joy that surpasses all expectation and intellectual understanding.

To use Wattsian phraseology, it's ultra-reasonable and supra-rational, but the funny part, when we reconcile ourselves to God in this way, is in looking back in hindsight as we realize with ever greater clarity, perhaps to our dismay if not hilarity, that it was the only thing worth doing or pursuing to begin with!

Then, our joy rises so high that it can only be met with a heavenly cheer, as we laugh again even in sympathetic harmony with none other than Jesus himself, our Lord, our brother, our savior, and our true friend, even yes, our God. We praise you Jesus and exclaim,

"Hallelujah!" (You don't get to say that word every day either!)




Just look at the standing ovation she gets and that version of Leonard Cohen's variation on Hallelujah, isn't even as good as it gets! (and by that I don't mean that Cohen's version is better)

Or maybe it IS more often than not "a cold and a broken hallelujah".. maybe there's something to that idea after all..

I suppose at first it's like that, for those of us with the courage, to repent and to receive God's forgiveness, but it certainly doesn't remain cold and broken for very long that's for sure.

Yes. I agree with this. For me, the key seems to be in what Jesus said in 1 Corinthians 15:

24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

This is something that is not fulfilled. I think these things happen individually, nationally and globally. It will take 1000 more years for this to fully engage. For those who say there is no distinction between God and Christ, I say to look at this verse. The Son is being raised and we are part of that one loaf. 1 Cor 10-15 makes for some really good reading if you know how to read the symbols.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

Originally posted by EnochWasRight
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

As you review this video, it might be helpful to know the difference between a seeking Christian and a wandering sinner. We are all sinners. This is true. The point of involution (Baptism) into the material world is to repent (Turn the other direction away from desire). Involution is necessary, just as Lu Tzu points out here:

But to be alive is to be attached, at some level and there is always a desire, a human impulse for something better, an attachment to an outcome of some kind, the only question being what, to what object are we attached and in what direction, and to what pursuit, is our desire and our passion directed? I believe that there is an object of love, one that Jesus found, and invited us to share, a healthy attachment of desire and passion where it may be said that there is no amount of Christ capable of ruining a personality..

Then eventually we start to roll into it, with increasing integrity and wholeness and it feels good, feels right, and therein resides our satisfaction, and endless joy.

Nothing dies, it only transforms, reintegrated, forgiven, invited to participate along with the rest of the whole person, a new life, yet something both old AND new, since it's like getting handed back something that we only felt and were able to appreciate as little children, like a happy homecoming.

I would simply be seen as the person outside the theological box they have constructed. More and more, I see this divide between myself and the those I know. I am thankful for this, yet sad at the same time.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


This feeling is very overwhelming for me and the reason why I "left" the dogma behind and anyone trying to preach it to me. Oh how I know this feeling you describe. It is sad.

I can't tell you how much this site has helped me grow spiritually. I have a few of you who on this site have been great teachers. I believe we are all trying to "make it" the best way we know how. Not just here on ATS but all souls. We are learning each and every moment of consciousness and how we love one another is not only helpful to the other person but for our journey as well.

We are all connected to the same source and our belief system matters. Everything we believe is front and center of our sociological behavior toward our environment including but not limited to one another.

There is many realms and as Jesus called them... mansions. Each place is created just for us and our spirit and soul evolve - ment toward at one ment or.... atonement.

Our belief about our self, others, heaven, hell, anything.... is a manifestation all on its own and in its own right. Eternity is not a space time that ends. There is no end to us. We are pure energy and loved unconditionally no matter what this earth experience says..... we are loved no matter what. Everything is well and we are spiritual beings vibrating in a body and our higher self is without space time to guide us.

So.... lol.... my loooonnnnnnggggggg point is........

Evil is good.

Labels are something we use for identity purposes only but they are truly not needed in the grand scheme of things where God (whatever you want to call it) is concerned.

I believe the only reason why some may experience a state of awareness such as hell when they leave the earth is because they believed such existed so strongly and their spirits have to adjust to the reality away from the belief system because belief systems can be so strong in a mind of which the spirit has a hard time overcoming.