JINNS!!

Originally posted by Agarta
reply to post by logical7

 

I understand that one can force control over the Jinn through what is known today as the Grand Clavical of Solomon and a vessel made by sacred means(both of these are known to me as they are both used in possession removal when exorcisms are unsuccessful a last ditched effort if you will) I was curious of the origins and stories held within Islamic tradition. I also understand it is strictly forbidden within Islamic tradition which is what confuses me about the origins of their use, I guess.

i think i can help,
Qur'an surah 2

102. And they followed what the devils taught during the reign of
Solomon. It was not Solomon who
disbelieved, but it was the devils who
disbelieved. They taught the people
witchcraft and what was revealed in
Babylon to the two angels Harut and Marut. They did not teach anybody
until they had said, “We are a test, so
do not lose faith.” But they learned
from them the means to cause
separation between man and his wife.
But they cannot harm anyone except with God's permission. And they
learned what would harm them and
not benefit them. Yet they knew that
whoever deals in it will have no share
in the Hereafter. Miserable is what they
sold their souls for, if they only knew. 103. Had they believed and been righteous, the reward from God would
have been better, if they only knew.

reply to post by jhill76


Within the topic of the thread otherwise it is off topic which only serves to derail the thread.

What is your take on hell, for humans

Yet again an attempt to convert the topic to Christian theologies/understandings.

It is one and the same. I will clarify.

Does man and jinn share the same fate in the end

You mentioned three entities in your op.

Better question without Christian terminology

I believe the gnostic texts

If you are a studier of true Gnostic texts you would understand the dualities of good and evil were created by the Gnostics in order to define free will and morals and thus hell is a basic deterrent the perception of good and evil/light and dark are for the minds of man in order to classify and do not actually exist as all is neutral, but that is a conversation for another thread as well.

Please do not get me wrong and feel I am attacking you personally. I have valued your posts many times in the past, I can see without a doubt your knowledge within Christian Gnostis, and for the most part enjoy what it is you have to say, but this is not the threaad as the topic is the Jinn. Yes, other entities were mentioned in the OP but they were mentioned in order to show where the Jinn sits within the realm of the creations and their position.

On the teachings of the Gnostics as there is only neutral then everyone, Jinn or Human will eventually go to the same place within God it is just a matter of how long it takes for the individual to reach the level of true ONEness with the ONE.

BUT

I too look forward to the answer of how Islam tradition approaches this subject.

Edit to add: I would say they do as, according to Islam tradition they have free will which means they will be judged by Allah on their choices. I have read the Qur'an but do not remember how it is addressed.

reply to post by jhill76


I wish to apologize for my former statement regarding this quote

What is your take on hell, for humans

I had forgotten that Hell is referenced by name in the Qur'an. Having seen the quotes made during my typing my last reply I remember the context they were within the Qur'an. Again I apologize for that statement.

reply to post by Agarta


I am not aware of the gnostic texts and will need to look into them. I had to ask another here for that reference since the other poster asked of it.

reply to post by jhill76


If you are not aware of the Gnosis teachings then I commend you on your understandings shown in your previous posts. They follow closely to the teachings of the Eastern masters. Could it be you have studied the teachings of the Essens?

Originally posted by Agarta
reply to post by jhill76

 

If you are not aware of the Gnosis teachings then I commend you on your understandings shown in your previous posts. They follow closely to the teachings of the Eastern masters. Could it be you have studied the teachings of the Essens?

I have not studied anyone here, my knowledge comes from speaking to above.

I will take time now to study some other texts here, as they seem interesting.

reply to post by logical7


So basically they have taken on the role of the testers of free will? In other words they have taken the role of the dark(as the duality separates) to act as tempters of the faith and therefore actually taken on the responsibility of Allah's hand of "separation"?

Originally posted by Agarta
reply to post by logical7

 

So basically they have taken on the role of the testers of free will? In other words they have taken the role of the dark(as the duality separates) to act as tempters of the faith and therefore actually taken on the responsibility of Allah's hand of "separation"?

That is an interesting conclusion, I would like to hear about this as well.

Originally posted by Agarta
reply to post by logical7

 

So basically they have taken on the role of the testers of free will? In other words they have taken the role of the dark(as the duality separates) to act as tempters of the faith and therefore actually taken on the responsibility of Allah's hand of "separation"?

i dint get you completely, especially the last line,
i'l reply to what i did get. Yes they were a "test" not "testers" just like any other temptation that is harmful but available.
They had a knowledge and warned that its harmful.

maybe i got you. You are talking about the evil djinns in general.right?
Well yes they are the tempters to test free will.
It fits into the grand plan of God.

reply to post by logical7

maybe i got you. You are talking about the evil djinns in general.right?
Well yes they are the tempters to test free will.
It fits into the grand plan of God.

What grand plan???

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by logical7

 

maybe i got you. You are talking about the evil djinns in general.right?
Well yes they are the tempters to test free will.
It fits into the grand plan of God.

What grand plan???

to make a creation having free will, yet having a negative force to pull humans away from God.
And i'l ask you to keep the posts on topic as much as you can.

reply to post by logical7


Stay on topic, eh? This:

They are of few types, some just live at abandoned houses, uninhabitated areas, woods etc, some can change form and look like animals/humans, some can fly.
Normally they avoid humans but then they have free will.
They have a longer life span than humans and can possess humans, that can explain past life memories, a jinn passing memory of a dead host to another child host just for the fun of it and later even leave.

This has the distinct taste of Odin, Zeus, Jupiter, and Quetzlcoatl. Myths invented to explain strange phenomena in an age of ignorance. It's an explanation, but so is "God" moving furniture in the sky to cause thunder. My sister used to believe that when she was young and uneducated, too.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by logical7

 

Stay on topic, eh? This:

They are of few types, some just live at abandoned houses, uninhabitated areas, woods etc, some can change form and look like animals/humans, some can fly.
Normally they avoid humans but then they have free will.
They have a longer life span than humans and can possess humans, that can explain past life memories, a jinn passing memory of a dead host to another child host just for the fun of it and later even leave.

This has the distinct taste of Odin, Zeus, Jupiter, and Quetzlcoatl. Myths invented to explain strange phenomena in an age of ignorance. It's an explanation, but so is "God" moving furniture in the sky to cause thunder. My sister used to believe that when she was young and uneducated, too.

edit on 9-1-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

well, you dont "have" to post on every thread if you know what i mean.
Any questions about the topic are welcomed.

reply to post by logical7


I apologize for the simplicity of the image I made but I thought it might help in understanding what I mean.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/img/yz50edd47f.png[/atsimg]

Basically, Allah(God) is all, Allah is the ONE, Allah created all things both good and evil(or there would be no duality or need for free will). Therefore Allah is purely neutral. Allah's right hand is pure light, peace, love. Allah's left hand is pure dark, war, hate. Allah's plan is to become One with all his creation as it is separated by belief. In order to do this all must be of the light.

He therefore directs the left hand to tempt in order to separate those creations that are worthy of becoming ONE. With every soul that becomes light Allah grows in love and peace. With every soul that becomes dark Allah grows in war and hate. The Dark side of Allah has been used to "Force" free will to the light as seen in the teachings of Moses. Allah changed to passive hope through the teachings of Jesus. Allah wants to be of only light and that is the "plan" but it can not be from force but through love and obedience to the light that this may be achieved.

Going on this would it not be his plan to use the dark to allow the light to stand out so that it may be brought into Allah's light? This is my train of thought and interpretation whilst reading the quotes you posted along with...

Hell is the punishment of those that turn from the light in order to show them the error of their ways. This is not an eternal punishment as this would halt the progression to the light. Does this lend credence to reincarnation in that the soul is returned to "Try again" after their punishment? I do not know.

If this all clashes or incorrect, please help me to understand as I am going on what I understand of the teachings of Mohammad and the others known to Islam as prophets.

Originally posted by Agarta
reply to post by logical7

 

I apologize for the simplicity of the image I made but I thought it might help in understanding what I mean.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/img/yz50edd47f.png[/atsimg]

Basically, Allah(God) is all, Allah is the ONE, Allah created all things both good and evil(or there would be no duality or need for free will). Therefore Allah is purely neutral. Allah's right hand is pure light, peace, love. Allah's left hand is pure dark, war, hate. Allah's plan is to become One with all his creation as it is separated by belief. In order to do this all must be of the light.

He therefore directs the left hand to tempt in order to separate those creations that are worthy of becoming ONE. With every soul that becomes light Allah grows in love and peace. With every soul that becomes dark Allah grows in war and hate. The Dark side of Allah has been used to "Force" free will to the light as seen in the teachings of Moses. Allah changed to passive hope through the teachings of Jesus. Allah wants to be of only light and that is the "plan" but it can not be from force but through love and obedience to the light that this may be achieved.

Going on this would it not be his plan to use the dark to allow the light to stand out so that it may be brought into Allah's light? This is my train of thought and interpretation whilst reading the quotes you posted along with...

Hell is the punishment of those that turn from the light in order to show them the error of their ways. This is not an eternal punishment as this would halt the progression to the light. Does this lend credence to reincarnation in that the soul is returned to "Try again" after their punishment? I do not know.

If this all clashes or incorrect, please help me to understand as I am going on what I understand of the teachings of Mohammad and the others known to Islam as prophets.

you made a nice image!
The only thing that you have to do to understand the islamic stand is to shift "Allah" completely to the right.
You see till there was no free will. There was no dark side. And everything was perfect and error free.
But Yes by making free will, God also gave room for error/sins.
So after free will came, hell came too and will stay.
God doesnt have to eradicate hell to perfect Himself.
Hell in itself is an expression of His justice,
but His Mercy over-rules His wrath.
EDIT- also no angels on dark side.

reply to post by logical7


Agreed, before the gift of free will there was no dark but the light of Allah(God). Hell has been created and will remain, but it is through the grace/mercy that the dark will eventually fade back into the ascension of light and thus no longer a need for hell once the souls have accepted upon their own free will Allah. Yes?

Edit to add: So the Jinn were created as the first free will. They were given the choice of which side to use in the teaching of man and therefore regardless of light or dark are following his will through their own choice of how to go about it?

Originally posted by Agarta
reply to post by logical7

 

Agreed, before the gift of free will there was no dark but the light of Allah(God). Hell has been created and will remain, but it is through the grace/mercy that the dark will eventually fade back into the ascension of light and thus no longer a need for hell once the souls have accepted upon their own free will Allah. Yes?

actually, NO, why would any dark remain after the judgement day? The people/jinns in hell will acknowledge Allah and take the punishment, giving them a retry voilates free will doesnt it?
God is completely independent, He doesnt need everyone to be in light, only the ones that chose when they had a choice, will meet Him.

Edit to add: So the Jinn were created as the first free will. They were given the choice of which side to use in the teaching of man and therefore regardless of light or dark are following his will through their own choice of how to go about it?

the good jinns dont interact with humans, and the command to both humans and jinns is not to seek interactions. Disobeying it is another wrong both may do.
Only the ones on right(light) side obey. The dark siders are choosing existence without God and they'l get it.
God is separate and independent from all. God is not All, universe is not a part of God, its a creation but not "inside" God. Hope you are getting the difference.

reply to post by logical7


I do get the difference although I disagree. With my own beliefs, I see Allah(God) created all things from himself. Energy is, was ,and always will be and everything is energy in its simplest form and therefore a truth(in my mind) and therefore all part of the Creator, but that is not what we are talking about, so I will let it go.

Switching to the belief of separatism in your description, What then is the purpose of the Light Jinn? If they are not to interact with Man they are simply another creation making choices. Please explain how they fit into the grand scheme. I mean, yes they choose to serve Allah but to what end? Allah sends Angels to communicate and Angels to destroy(in the old stories), there are Angels to guide and protect, yet no purpose for the light Jinn. Does my confusion make sense?

Originally posted by Agarta
reply to post by logical7

 

I do get the difference although I disagree with my own beliefs I see Allah(God) created all things from himself. Energy is, was ,and always will be and everything is energy in its simplest form and therefore a truth(in my mind) and therefore all part of the Creator, but that is not what we are talking about so I will let it go.

Switching to the belief of separatism in your description, What then is the purpose of the Light Jinn? If they are not to interact with Man they are simply another creation making choices. Please explain how they fit into the grand scheme. I mean, yes they choose to serve Allah but to what end? Allah sends Angels to communicate and Angels to destroy(in the old stories), there are Angels to guide and protect, yet no purpose for the light Jinn. Does my confusion make sense?

yes it makes sense. And its simple, i'l answer it with a question. Why the light humans were created?
The light jinns for the same. The dark jinns try to mislead other jinns and men and even dark humans try that, but they are not doing any work of God, they cant ask credit for playing bad cop.
Just God knew it. Light jinns & humans will get Heaven. The purpose is to accept God, submit and obey.