Handguns, assault rifles, and you. Oh my!

Hello, again ATS.

I'm not one to make many threads unless I feel absolutely passionate about what I have to say, and feel my thoughts need to be expressed. I was really unsure of where to place this thread, and please it's not an attack merely what I have observed. For Several years now the American public feels their government is out to take away their rights. Now, I do not necessarily disagree with the fact more and more freedoms are being cut on a daily basis, through out the united states. After 9/11 Airport security was increased, complete strangers can put their hands places they have no business being, and I can no longer fly with razors, nail clippers, cigarette lighters, or tweezers in my carry on. I understand the thought process involved in eliminating these things but how far do we have to take it for our safety?

My real reason for starting this thread is the on going discussions about gun control. Now I know there are more than a few threads regarding this issue already, and I'm not trying to add another 0 to the growing figures. My curiosity lies there in with the answers the community has to propose to the problem. There has been a spat of shootings in the US. All of which are terrible tragedies, leaving the general public shocked and feeling vulnerable. Many of you turn to your government looking for answers. " How are you going to stop this from happening again?", " Why did this happen in the first place?", "Who is responsible?", " Who can I hold accountable for the tragedy?" If you would prefer you can replace accountable with " Blame," because that's what we prefer to do as human beings. We like to place blame on the easiest answers, often hastily and with out rational thought.

Now, I know many here on ATS are divided on the idea of Fire arms legislation. Personally, I am not going to take a stance one way or another on this thread, but rather attempt to direct discussion to the root cause of the problems we have been experiencing. Society has looked to their government, and law enforcement for an answer for the increasing unnecessary tragedies. The unfortunate thing being this is not a simple problem, nor does it have an equally simple answer. In almost every case of a shooting, the shooter was unknown before the event took place. Looking back we find " Signs " that could have shed some light on the potential outcomes, but in reality we had no clue.

I don't want to pick one particular incident to base this around, because I don't want it to boil down into a thread about a specific shooting so bare with me. The Government has been trying to find solutions to societies problems for a very long time. Society is a very complex, ever changing thing. What works for some, does not work for others, and what works today may not even come close to working tomorrow, or next week, next month etc.

We were all shocked and devastated by the terrorist attacks over the years, and wanted a solution. The easiest solution was to increase security and awareness. This eventually led way to the TSA, harsher restrictions on interior and international travel which at the time we all welcomed with open arms. How do we as a people address the problems?

From one shooter to another, how do we solve the problem? I've heard so many arguments for and against the recent proposed legislation. Keep in mind you are already an armed public, and to date no civilian has been able to prevent these tragedies. I am aware there are instances of armed civilians foiling smaller armed encounters, but for the general safety of all, what is the answer. Either way you look at it, you are going to lose some right or freedom. Do we put restrictions on the types of firearms available to the public? Do we make the process of acquiring and owning firearms better regulated? Do we put into action regular background, and health checks? This is a very complex problem, and I do not believe we as a society are capable of finding this solution easily. We look to the government and law enforcement for protection, so arguing taking fire arms from the public and them is the only fair route.

Criminals will have weapons irregardless of any of the proposed solutions, how ever many of these shootings are carried out by civilians, often with out a history of violent crime. Which is often why it comes as such a surprise. How should America deal with the issues at hand? I hear so many voice their concerns over the proposed legislation but no body is offering a solution that is any less upsetting for the nation.

We hear prevent those with mental health problems from possessing fire arms. Well, where do you draw the line there? I've stated this in many threads regarding mental health, every single person will have a mental health issue at one point in their lives. Some of those issues will be permanent, some of them will go away on their own, and others still can be treated with counseling. Using this logic, for an answer results in the same problem. Not one American will legally be allowed to own a firearm, being that to instill this solution everyone who wishes to possess or does possess a firearm would be subject to evaluation on some what regular intervals. You lose a family member, a job, have a divorce, suffering from money troubles, or happen to be the 1 in 5 who will come down with a significant mental health disorder and pow! You are now deemed unfit to own, or purchase a firearm.

So how do we solve this problem? What is the solution, how do we prevent said tragedies from happening and move forwards as a society? I personally do not know the answer, nor do I entirely agree with ANY of the proposed solutions so far. I can see the logic in restricting the sale of certain fire arms, how ever I do not think it's fair or right to ban them outright. What do we do? Society has a voice, and there has to be a significant number who feel the current proposition is feasible, so those of you who do not what is your suggestion?

you will never ban guns as long as people have access to shovels and machine tools and welders etc i give you this link as an example...and personaly i think this guy as the comments suggested (atleast from a pro gun point of view) just won the internet guy made an ak-47 out of a shovel

www.northeastshooters.com...! kinda salty language so be forwarned id post an excerpt but for the life of me could not find a part that would be suitable to post on ats but this just made my day as a pro gun person

Step one is to identify the problem.
The root problem is not all the mass shootings.
It is a certain group that covertly finds the right subject for the next diversionary headline for the msm.
The truth is that the masses will never see past a massacre because of respect for the tragedy.
So this will continue just as before until several goals are reached.

reply to post by RalagaNarHallas


I am not out to ban guns, and personally believe someone who wants to kill a bunch of people is going to do it with what ever they have available. A knife in a crowded room can do a whole hell of a lot of damage, and is even more likely to harm more individuals before the attacker is stopped because it doesn't let it immediately known you are threat.

My question remains, how do we identify the problem, and what is the solution?

reply to post by deadeyedick


Excellent point, so how do we the people go forward from here? Guns are taking a very bad name in all this, how is it we save face and move forward? What is the underlying problem then? I'm aware it's not easy, and I do not believe it can be easily solved. So what do we do? As a civilized society there has to be a solution, for the better of all with out harming the masses as well. It's apparent the nation is divided on their views, morals and actions. How is it we move forward from this. I understand Mass shootings are not the problem, but in the public's eye it is, and they have had enough. All be it, we see far more negative media against guns than we see in favor of them leading the general public to blindly point the finger at them.

What as civilized educated people do you suggest we do?

reply to post by Hijinx

Society has looked to their government, and law enforcement for an answer for the increasing unnecessary tragedies.

That’s exactly what they want. This is all part of their plan. .

So how do we solve this problem? What is the solution, how do we prevent said tragedies from happening and move forwards as a society?

If you’re asking how a society stops a lone gunman (if that’s what happened in these recent cases) then the answer is simple – we can’t stop it. Even in UK where the citizens are almost complete disarmed we still see these occurrences from time to time.



None of the restrictions being proposed in congress will do a damn thing to stop it. I don't think we see more of these shooting here in US because we have more guns....I think we see more in US because these are staged events orchestrated by a powerful group. Look at the number of suicide bombings in the ME. Those are also organized attacks using a supposed "lone wolf" and are really a coordinated group effort to terrorize the masses and accomplish certain objectives.

reply to post by Hijinx

What as civilized educated people do you suggest we do?

As a whole our solutions are limited by our knowledge of what is happening.
People will become even more polarized over the situation until we find ourselves backed into a corner.
IMO it's already too late to repair the damage done to our country.

Lets replace bullets with colored bean bags!

Unfortunately, there is no answer. Reducing frequency of these things happening is the only viable target but there are so many factors to consider. Political, economic, social, domestic etc. For most people a bad day can be resolved by a few beers and a chance to wind down but to others, it's not as simple. Days, months and years of pent up frustration and aggression can boil over to a few minutes of mass murder. That's just one example, when you add in the cold and calculated cases where people have planned their attacks on others with precision, there's very little that can be done about it. Guns exist and nothing can change that. Outlawing them won't make them disappear, it'll just move the market for them underground. That's besides the point as they simple won't be outlawed, which is a good thing. There may be more restrictions on acquiring some, again a good thing but it still won't deter anyone who is really serious about getting their hands on an assault rifle. Until other issues and dealt with, the possession of guns is just a side issue.

Originally posted by seabag

If you’re asking how a society stops a lone gunman (if that’s what happened in these recent cases) then the answer is simple – we can’t stop it. Even in UK where the citizens are almost complete disarmed we still see these occurrences from time to time.

I agree with Seabag, "we can't stop it." Unfortunately, it is a cost of our free system. In a way, the issue is much like our current court system.

Our court system is one of the best, if not the best, the world has to offer a free society. We all have the right to our day in court and the right to counsel, to prove (or not) our innocence.

Unfortunately, some criminals get off free even though they are guilty (think OJ). However, it is the price we pay in order to have the system we do, where many more innocents aren't imprisoned or put to death.

No system is perfect, but we must choose the lessor evil. Do we support a system that imprisons too many innocent victims, charged with crimes they did not commit? Or, do we choose the system that isn't perfect, but does benefit the innocent more than the criminal. Legally, we are innocent until PROVEN guilty. Some criminals are let off, due to the state not being able to prove guilt. However, is the alternative better or worse? I'd say it is much worse to imprison someone who is innocent.

This is one of those times that we have to critically think about the whole picture here. Our country has benefited from having its citizens armed and will continue to benefit. Unfortunately, we will continue to see horrible acts of violence no matter our laws regarding firearms, or knifes, or whatever tool-deemed-weapon of the day.

It is up to us to demand that our representatives act responsibly and not blanket these acts in political madness. They need to treat us as the adults we are and we must expect a thorough investigation into the mindset of the criminals; as that is where we will find the answers.

reply to post by seabag


That clip is actually an early report from the Cumbria shootings. The total body count was 12 dead and 11 injured. He only used bolt actions and a double barrel shotgun (all other types of guns having been banned from previous shooting sprees in the UK) proving that gun bans are ridiculous and uneffective.