Tackle the ROOT of sexual violations, not the aftermath.

The insignificant nobody me had refrained from this debate ever since it started around the world, but very few here on ATS, reason being that it is a highly emotive issue right now in India and amongst womenhood worldwide, and they WILL REFUSE to accept logic and reason, simply out of fear that all that they lived for, their causes, will be destroyed by truth, reality, logic and reason.

Nevertheless, I shall wade into this debate, without fear or favor, to share insights and not force minds to change.

It was most certainly despicable over what the indian men had done to the girl that they had sexually assualted, and there can be NO excuses in anyway, more so when the poor girl had died. They must be given the highest punishment for this atrocious crimes.

However, the emotional outpourings for the blood of the culprits is misled.

It is NOT the culprits that society must resolve, but rather, the mindsets, as there are probably MILLION other indian men waiting to pounce upon women, regardless of the outcomes if caught by society.

Many blamed the slum dwelling men as being sexual assualters. But the fact is - sexual assualt cases happened within EVERY strata of society from high to low. To blame slum dwellers would be to let the rich or middle class predators off the hook.

We must tackle the ROOT of the problem if we are to ensure that less and gradually no more sexual assualt cases happen.

Beginning with the slum dwellers first - they have no opportunity in life, and no woman will want them in any way, as the saying goes-'love does not pay the rent'. But these men have natural urges, so what are they to do? Even prostitutes - the oldest proffesion on Earth, ignores them as they have no job opportunities, in education and are uncoouth, and no money.

Thanks to the corrupted govt of india, these men saw no hope for themselves. They live day by day, and when the natural urges come, espacially embolden after being heavy on liqour, any female walking nearby becomes their target.

When they are caught, they have no care for life, for it is already miserable in the first place with no opportunities in life, forever marginalized with no hope. Death becomes only another form of release to them. Life is cheap in their view. Thus, killing sexual assaulters, from the slums is the most stupid thing to do.

Execution is but only a short term solution, a warming of the heart to see the culprits hang, but it will NOT stop further sexual assualts.

What the slum dwellers need is hope and real opportunities in life.

1. For the short term, legalize the oldest profession in the world, regulate it and ensure that it is affordable and filled ONLY with those whom had volunteered for such services, and not out of force or circumstances that the state could have help.

2. Change deeply ingrained mindsets of indians over marriage.
The slum dwellers have no opportunities in life and are shunned by match-makers. Women in India have to pay an enormous dowry to the bridegroom to get married.

Necessity calls for change. Instead, let the slum dwelling men make token dowries to the wives, whom in modern India, do have careers as their own - doctors, lawyers, nurses, teachers, technicians, etc, and can afford to take care of the family. And not all of them are pretty enough to snare husbands, and remained single for life.

Let the men marry 'into' the family, become house husbands and take care of the children if any. There is no shame in being a househusband who takes loving care of the home, but there is great shame if a man gifted with life revels in poverty and enjoys killing, hurting and harming another fellow human.

Not many chavunistic male will bed to such levels to become househusband, not even slum dwellers, but in the face of perpetual poverty, this is one hope that they can look forward to, instead of seeking fatalistic means to live this miserable life.

3. Corrupted Indian govt leadership- I need not waste further words on this point. It had already been well known and documented for decades if not centuries, for failing its own people.


As for the rich and middle classes whom carried out sexual assualts upon women, the best thing to do is to USE MONEY to penalise them - FOR LIFE, the way western divorce laws cripple many a divorced person, male or female.

Execute a man or chemically/physically castrate him, he feels nothing, but only remembers with pleasure the hurt and harm he had done while still breathing.

But make him part with a portion of his money FOR LIFE - he will feel the deaths of a thousand cuts, over loss of opportunities and other rewards of living by sacrificing all that to make monthly payments for his crime.

Being rich and middle class, he will need to live, and fully capable of doing so, thus he will not seek the easy way out by being bankrupt. He has a life to live, enjoy his wealth, enjoy pleasures in any form, and will not give it all up easily, no more than divorce persons rotting for a few weeks in prison for missing a month's alimony check.

These are only some of my personal views, but I am sure that there are better minds out there, whom can share insights that a new and relevant to this thread, which may help our fellow human brothers and sisters in India, through our own individual social networks that reaches out to the world.

But still, no matter what, it is the ROOT of problems that mankind must tackle, not the feel good surface effects that stops nothing in reality.

I can't really speak on India specifically, I have never been there. I find it hard to believe that humans from India, or any country can be so fundamentally different than me though. For me, I have always been able to put myself in other's shoes easily so to speak. It probably has a lot to do with my life experiences, even when I was young and dumb, when I would do something "bad" just to boost my ego, in the quiet times in the night while trying to sleep, I would replay my own actions in my head, and imagine how the victim of my actions or words might have felt. I always feel bad for hurting others, even just mentally, let alone physically. I don't know how people can live with themselves, and sleep like babies after doing things like that......... I am just hoping people like that are a minority.

I could never, ever violate another person like rape. It blows my mind really.

Research has shown that the best way to prevent any crime is high probability of punishment (the magnitude of punishment has little effect). This is particularly hard to do with rape even in developed nations, because most rape victims for various reasons do not even seek justice, and if they do, they are looked at with suspicion, and even if not, proving rape beyond reasonable doubt is very hard.

Here is something I dont get about this outrage. The woman in India was beaten to death, why is the sexual aspect always at the forefront? Id say penis in vagina was among the least of her problems..

A passionate and well spoken thread, I think I learnt something about you and about India.
I was aware of this issue but chose not to participate until your thread, my comments were/are useless in such a case.

It is not a nice situation for any/all concerned.
As with just about every country on the planet we all have our issues which are unacceptable to us, and stuff we are prepared to ignore.....for now.
The problem with that, is it goes on to a slow boil and eventually. because it's been put on the back burner, it will boil over.
Unfortunately when that happens the only thing you can control is yourself and it must be riden out for good or for ill, what ever the outcome.
Extreme emotion should always be listened to as it is the gateway to chaos.

It is a clear sign that it only takes a very small thing that is broken for it to become a huge issue, and obviously something to be avoided if you can, which in defence of those who bury their heads in the sand, they knew no better and tried as hard as they could.

The animal games are a factor whether you have no money or more than you can spend, the story is only slightly different, you will not hear about all the ones who could pay for silence.
These men and women protesting could be a message to those.

But please let's not forget the men.....our bodies as they are do have needs, if you deprive that natural instinct by any means neccessary, what do you think you will create from that?
Use your head

If this was an isolated incident your women would not have reacted the way they did, fact.

These actions spell to me, FED UP!

Who gets that passionate over the starving and homelessness, or is that just a construct to harvest more emotion?

I said no borders would alleviate a lot of energy stress we are seeing made manifest now, but no one is listening.

If you have a clot, what happens to you?

sorry to babble....I hope those women prove me right and that they are strong, passionate and just, laced with plenty of compassion. They are well practiced and deserve great respect for their control.

the "root" of this problem is no different to the root of all our global problems, people don't care about each other enough, any longer. hell i'd be surprised if you could show me 6 people in a row that did anything to help out a fellow human being recently. you see someone fall down, or have some other type of physical impairment while walking about, and 9 out of 10 people will just walk right by them without offering them any help.

Rape is about violence. Not sexual urges.

It's TAKING power and leaving the shell behind them. Powerless and empty.

I have never lived outside the US. I do not pretend to know other countries attitudes on morality, marriage or rape. Ethically, it's something entirely different. I know how I feel.

I feel that women in India (or other nations of similar belief) have no familial power. There is no team in marriage. No acknowledgement of women's rights like in America. Rapes, and gang rapes as well, I understand are something not out of the ordinary. I believe it is India that also practices female circumcision (removal of clitoris).
I've also heard of a practise that involves sewing a child's vulva closed and opening it on the wedding night.

My understanding of rape victims is that they have had taken from them a body part that was once just another acknowledge body part, and chopped it off. The body relationship is ruined. Like a one armed man at a concert-no more express pure joy in clapping.

I don't care where you are from, or your gender. As an adult-rape victims are scarred, if not physically, emotions will surely suffer.

You talk about prevention. I have no clue what drives rape. It is beyond my comprehension to be aroused with intent of causing harm.

Victims/potential victims can be taught safety habits, and self defense behaviors. But I've never heard of rape prevention in perpatraters.

While chemical/surgical castration is possible, I have seen a documentary with a paroled child sex offender interviewed. He said those "feelings" don't go away. He admits to still being aroused by children, everyday. He also states that he works hard not to act on those feelings. States that sexual predators cannot be cured, or purified against what goes on in their fantasies. Only taught to 'not' cause pain in others. This is usually after the fact. He also made a cryptic statement that castration would do nothing. A penis isn't the only thing that can be used to penetrate.

Originally posted by Maslo
Here is something I dont get about this outrage. The woman in India was beaten to death, why is the sexual aspect always at the forefront? Id say penis in vagina was among the least of her problems..

Apparently it wasn't in her vagina.

She had her intestines ripped out.

Originally posted by NuclearPaul

Originally posted by Maslo
Here is something I dont get about this outrage. The woman in India was beaten to death, why is the sexual aspect always at the forefront? Id say penis in vagina was among the least of her problems..

Apparently it wasn't in her vagina.

She had her intestines ripped out.

Delicious. ((((((((SARCASM INTENDED)))))))

Rape is about overpowering someone else. It's like bullying on steroids. If you look at a man who abuses a woman (or a child), you will see a man who feels powerless in other aspects of his life. To overpower someone else makes this man feel temporarily powerful.

The problem is, lots of men feel powerless but don't hurt others. Only some men react this way to their own insecurities. What makes some men respond that way? Not sure, but it may have something to do with a history of being abused themselves. How to stop the cycle of abuse? That's the million dollar question.

Teaching boys/young men how to cope with their feelings is one step. Convincing them that they have value regardless of the failures/hardships they may face in life. Instilling respect for life and for others. But this has to start very young. In India, this would be very difficult, because the general culture's attitude toward women does not actually involve respecting them. It would take a major upheaval in their social structure - including how Indian women raise their own sons! That's not going to happen in a few years, or maybe even in a few decades. It could be done, I think - but it will take a concentrated effort by activists and the government (yes, social engineering - gasp!). There needs to be harsh punishments for rape crimes. There needs to be social programs in place to help abused children of both sexes. Women need to be treated equally under the law - ban all discrimination against women. That's a good start anyway.

How to get the government of India to act? Pressure from other countries would help. Shame them into it. I think that means we all need to get involved. Let your voice be heard however you can.

But if you can teach a boy self-respect and respect for others, you will eventually have a man who won't feel the need to hurt/rape/abuse/overpower someone else - regardless of his circumstances. JMHO.

The root of sexual trangressions lay with our normal human sexual urges in BOTH male and female. Even animals experience sexual 'heat' but are restricted to mating seasons, for most animals. Humans experience them anytime after puberty.

We are not animals, and thus a way had to be found to control such urges or it will only run rampant. Our ancestors made use of religion to teach such control through the sanctity of marriage and use of those urges only for procreation, or face the wrath of the Almighty.

No mainstream religion condone sexual transgressions, and our ancestors do punish offenders of such transgression through many ways that would deem barbaric today.

Secular guides also do not condone such transgression. At young age, children are taught to respect themselves, others and the opposite sexes, by teachers and parents. However, looking at the world today, not just in the west but in the east as well, sexual liberalism, permissiveness and experiments begins at a young age.

It seems we this generation may have drifted from the moral and ethical guidelines from our ancestors on how to educate the young on sexual control. Our failure to teach self control is evident.

Prostitution services is one of the oldest profession in our world, with a history that dates back to ancient civilisation through archeological findings. In those pagan days, prostitutes were even known as goddesses and the sex act was seen as something paganically holy, and probably a way to help control those sexual urges of men in society. It exists in both east and western ancient civilisations.

Mainstream religions had eradicated those pagan beliefs, but prostitution services today were seen with one eye closed, tolerated as the sexual urges need outlets and cannot be allowed to run rampant. Many secular societies chosed this option as well as they understand the rationale, tolerated it and legalise those services so long as no human operators were forced into it, but accepted it as a profession. Even women with no hope for marriage have sexual urges too.

For those societies that do NOT legalise prostitutions, sexual transgressions exists criminally upon innocent women, dispelling the notion that with no such services, sexual urges were eradicated. It did not, and may be worse as other forms of oullets were sought through criminal intent.

When the punishment for sexual transgression becomes harsh as given the death penalty, it will only result in far worse violence - the murder of the victim. Dead human tell no tales. The agressor has nothing to lose anymore, if his criminal sexual act means capital punishment, thus killing the victim will not make his crime any lesser anyway.

Therefore, mankind must be wise in the TYPES of crimes that deserve the death penalty. A human who has nothing, including his life, has nothing left to lose. Using the death penalty for sexual transgression or even non violent robbery, will ensure FULL violence takes place to victims.

I would instead recommend monetary compensation but for life to the victims by the transgressor as long as lives, through a portion of his salary each month so that he can continue to live, but to be aware of that portion of financial loss, in percentage to his wealth, he had caused himself if only he had not been stupid and let his lower head took control.

As for those whom have no jobs, the state will give him a job - hard labour with his legs chained lightly, but enough that he canot run away, to build roads, to compensate his victims and have a bit left over saved to start a new life as entreprenuer or employee with his skills learnt when he completes his sentence.

As mentioned in my opening post, there must be a holistic approach in resolving sexual violence against women. It begins at the societal level over root issues first before the imposition of punishment. Identification of the roots and education, by religious and secularist methodology, must come first.

One day, sexual urges can be controlled by all and prostitution will be eradicated. But we are not living in Utopia yet. Best we be pragmatic and realistic about it as we find our way to Utopia, while leaving none behind...

I read the op post and largely agree with what was written. It's good that people see there are many factors that lead to rape. That being said where I come from there are several men who will spend most if not all of their adult lives ignored by women and will never get to know what affection and love from someone really feels like. But they don't go around raping women when they get horny they do what all self respecting men do when they can't get any. They excuse them self to be in private and they beat their spud within an inch of its life. 2 minutes later they walk out feeling refreshed and ready to take on the world of Warcraft community.

Also as much as I hate to say it. There will always be a tiny part of the male brain that's wired for tape. It's a biological necessity. You don't see make gorillas and chimps asking nicely they just walk up and drag mrs. Koko behind the tree stump and has its way with her. I guess it's how animals assure their DNA gets spread.

Either way with the invention of the hand nobody needs to rape anybody. As the old saying goes. Be a man, use your hand!