Simon Wiesenthal Center: Top 10 Anti-Semites, Israel-Haters for 2012

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by ThinkingHuman

 

You vie Anti-Zionism with fear, that Israelis may lose their homeland, they may be sent back to a country they have never seen.

Is it fair to uproot people from their native land and deport them to a land their ancestors fled from?

Would Israel automatically become my native land if i converted to Judaism tomorrow? Most of todays Israelis have little to none ties to the native ancestors you are refering to. Anyway, how can a hocus pocus book that was written 2,000 years ago be relevant in todays geopolitics ?

Is it fair to uproot people who were living there before Israel became a state and deport them to ghettos that are cut off from the rest of the world ?

Deporting people is a crime but Israel has been doing exactly that, and much worse, ever since it became a sovereign state.

reply to post by ArtooDetoo

Would Israel automatically become my native land if i converted to Judaism tomorrow?

No, but if you can prove that you are of Jewish ancestry, they would let you in. In fact, this is the subject of much debate in Israel.

Most of todays Israelis have little to none ties to the native ancestors you are refering to. Anyway, how can a hocus pocus book that was written 2,000 years ago be relevant in todays geopolitics ?

This is one of the objections to "Zionism" that I am sympathetic towards.

Is it fair to uproot people who were living there before Israel became a state and deport them to ghettos that are cut off from the rest of the world ?

Perhaps not, but one would think that the welfare of the Ummah would override mere political concerns.

Deporting people is a crime but Israel has been doing exactly that, and much worse, ever since it became a sovereign state.

I hate to be pedantic, but where, exactly, is deportation classified as a crime?

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by ThinkingHuman

 

You view Anti-Zionism with fear, that Israelis may lose their homeland, they may be sent back to a country they have never seen.

No, I simply view the phrase "Anti-Zionism" with suspicion. Is it fair to uproot people from their native land and deport them to a land their ancestors fled from?

"suspicion" does not justify prohibiting its use, or chastising people for using it.

Your question confirms again what I said, that you are afraid of Israelis being "deported".

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by ArtooDetoo

 

Would Israel automatically become my native land if i converted to Judaism tomorrow?

No, but if you can prove that you are of Jewish ancestry, they would let you in. In fact, this is the subject of much debate in Israel.

You are side-stepping the question which was not about ancestry but about "native land".

I hate to be pedantic, but where, exactly, is deportation classified as a crime?

You are serious that:
taking people's land (that is the first step in deporting),
forcing them to move somewhere else (that is the meaning of deporting),
controlling and limiting their access to provide for their living (that is the resulting reality of deporting), and
punishing them for any natural resistance (and considering that punishment justified)
all this is not a crime, right?

reply to post by AngryCymraeg

I don't know!...You probably describe my comments as "Anti Semite" what a surprise!...So with that logic a lot of western people who criticize corruption and terrorism in some Islamic countries are all anti Semites or anti Islam! ...Or if I criticize the US government for their policies,I am an anti American or Anti Anglo Saxon!...Labeling people doesn't justify anybodies actions,facts will remain facts regardless of labels and man made classifications.
.

reply to post by ThinkingHuman

You are serious that:
taking people's land (that is the first step in deporting),
forcing them to move somewhere else (that is the meaning of deporting),
controlling and limiting their access to provide for their living (that is the resulting reality of deporting), and
punishing them for any natural resistance (and considering that punishment justified)
all this is not a crime, right?

This is exactly what the Palestinians are currently attempting to do to the Israelis. Are the Palestinians criminals in your eyes?

reply to post by ThinkingHuman

"suspicion" does not justify prohibiting its use, or chastising people for using it.

Where do I attempt to prohibit the use of the phrase? I only chastise those who refuse to explain what they mean by it, for their evasiveness tends to justify my suspicions.

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by ThinkingHuman

 

You are serious that:
taking people's land (that is the first step in deporting),
forcing them to move somewhere else (that is the meaning of deporting),
controlling and limiting their access to provide for their living (that is the resulting reality of deporting), and
punishing them for any natural resistance (and considering that punishment justified)
all this is not a crime, right?

Are the Palestinians criminals in your eyes?

When they commit crimes, yes. Suicide attacks or other attacks by Palestinians are illegal.
Do you agree that Israelis killing Palestinians is equally illegal?

This is exactly what the Palestinians are currently attempting to do to the Israelis.

Wow, Palesinians are "attempting to deport the Israelis".

How many Israelis have been "deported" so far?

Please tell me specifically what they have done in "attempting" this deportation.

...all this is not a crime, right?

You have side-stepped my question again, why do you not want to answer it?

reply to post by ThinkingHuman

When they commit crimes, yes. Suicide attacks or other attacks by Palestinians are illegal.
Do you agree that Israelis killing Palestinians is equally illegal?

If they intentionally kill non-combatants, it would be a war crime. Israelis do kill Palestinian civilians as "collateral damage," but Hamas makes Israeli civilians their primary target. This is a war crime.

This is exactly what the Palestinians are currently attempting to do to the Israelis.

Wow, Palesinians are "attempting to deport the Israelis".

I stand corrected. Palestinians are attempting to massacre Israelis. It is only their naíve supporters who think that the Palestinians would politely ask the Israelis to move to Florida.

How many Israelis have been "deported" so far?

All right, you've made your point. The Palestinians don't want to deport the Israelis, they want to kill them.

Please tell me specifically what they have done in "attempting" this deportation.
...all this is not a crime, right?

Sheesh. For the third time, if the Palestinians were running the country and they deported all the Israelis, it would not be a crime. But intentionally killing civilians would be.

You have side-stepped my question again, why do you not want to answer it?

Which question? Would converting to Judaism make Israel someone's native land? Of course not! The country they were born in would remain their native land, by definition. However Israeli law might allow them to immigrate and get Israeli citizenship. Since 1947, there have been generations of people born into Israeli citizenship; not just Jews but Christians and Muslims. Israel is their native land, yet Palestinians, most of whom were not born in Israel, want them to leave. Is that fair?

Originally posted by DJW001

 

Israelis do kill Palestinian civilians as "collateral damage,"

If this was a one time event, this would be a reasonable statement. If it happens many times this excuse becomes a farce.

but Hamas makes Israeli civilians their primary target.

How many Israelis were killed by Palestinians since the year 2000? If "collateral" killing is significantly greater than the targeted one, are they not both war crimes?

Palestinians are attempting to massacre Israelis.

Again you are using an inflammatory word "massacre" combined with the word "attempting". If they were only attempting, that means no Israelis were actually killed. It seems like you trying to spread hate against Palestians. Did you not say the law against spreading hate should go both ways, didn't you? Oh, that's right, you didn't.

It is only their naíve supporters who think that the Palestinians would politely ask the Israelis to move to Florida.

Again, you are expressing FEAR, irrational fear it seems to me, that Israelis will be "deported" or any other word you may choose.

How many Israelis have been "deported" so far?

The Palestinians don't want to deport the Israelis, they want to kill them.

Here, again, you continue to spread your hate. That is all you have because facts are not there. Again, you say "they want to kill". You keep blaming them for wanting and attempting because you can blame anybody for wanting and attempting, as long as YOU want to spread hate.

Please tell me specifically what they have done in "attempting" this deportation.

Sheesh. For the third time, if the Palestinians were running the country and they deported all the Israelis, it would not be a crime. But intentionally killing civilians would be.

For the third time, you present your dreams/nightmares as "facts" in order to spread your hate, and this time you present a hypothetical "IF the Palestinians were..." Not that your sentence is coherent but it contains the words "deport", "killing", and "civilians". That makes it good enough for spreading hate against Palestinians.

Would converting to Judaism make Israel someone's native land? Of course not!

If somebody immigrates to a country and has children that land is considered their homeland. But if the parents STOLE the land, came illegally, do the children have the same rights or will they pay a part of the price for the conflict, along with the native people and the parents?

Israel is their native land, yet Palestinians, most of whom were not born in Israel, want them to leave. Is that fair?

How many times did we have the words "want" and "attempt"? How many times can you repeat that Palestinians "want" to "deport", make "them leave", "massacre" the people who were born in Israel, thereby making it the Jewish people's "native land"?

Are you then suggesting that all people who were not born in Israel should leave (regardess of whether they are Jewish or otherwise)?

Do you still not that Zionism was a set-up? God chose the Jewish people - to what? To accomplish great things, and to suffer. "Zionist leaders" chose the Jewish people to suffer, again, and no better place to pick than Palestine.

I am not Palestinian and I don't live anywhere near that place, so I don't care who lives there. I am certainly not telling anybody they should "move to Florida". But tell me, why kill each other over a small strip of desert? Jesus walked there, that does not mean that Jewish people must live just there now. They should live wherever they can live in peace and accomplish more great things, without the suffering. For their own sake. Not perpetuate this war that serves the purposes of Zionist leaders or maybe of somebody else - but not the purposes of the Jewish people. But when people have bought into a lie for a long time, it becomes hard to admit the mistake. Zionism is a lie, a trap, a set-up and the victims are mostly the Jews.

That is why I am Anti-Zionist.

reply to post by ThinkingHuman

If this was a one time event, this would be a reasonable statement. If it happens many times this excuse becomes a farce.

Death is never a farce.

How many Israelis were killed by Palestinians since the year 2000? If "collateral" killing is significantly greater than the targeted one, are they not both war crimes?

Are you saying that attempted murder is all right if the victim defends himself successfully? Deliberately targeting civilians is a war crime. Using civilians as a human shield is also a war crime.

Again you are using an inflammatory word "massacre" combined with the word "attempting". If they were only attempting, that means no Israelis were actually killed. It seems like you trying to spread hate against Palestians. Did you not say the law against spreading hate should go both ways, didn't you? Oh, that's right, you didn't.

How would you characterize the use of missiles against a civilian populace? A love offering? I am not attempting to spread hate, I am merely pointing out the facts. You are correct that I never said that the law against spreading hate should go both ways, because I never said there should be laws against spreading hate. In fact, I have never advocated censorship of any kind.

Again, you are expressing FEAR, irrational fear it seems to me, that Israelis will be "deported" or any other word you may choose.

I am not expressing fear, I am speculating as to what Hamas means when they state that they are committed to the destruction of Israel. What do you think they mean by it?

Here, again, you continue to spread your hate. That is all you have because facts are not there. Again, you say "they want to kill". You keep blaming them for wanting and attempting because you can blame anybody for wanting and attempting, as long as YOU want to spread hate.

Actually, the fact of the matter is that Palestinians do kill Israelis. Since you seem not to like the word "attempt," let me try something more positive sounding: desire. Hamas' desire to kill Israelis is usually thwarted, but it is there. Who is it that is hateful here?

If somebody immigrates to a country and has children that land is considered their homeland. But if the parents STOLE the land, came illegally, do the children have the same rights or will they pay a part of the price for the conflict, along with the native people and the parents?

But what if they bought it legally? Do those who purchased the land legally deserve to suffer the same as those who did not?

Zionism is a lie, a trap, a set-up and the victims are mostly the Jews.

Now we get to the heart of the matter. What, in your estimation, is the goal of Zionism? Why is it a trap? What is the ultimate agenda?

That is why I am Anti-Zionist.

Excellent! As an Anti-Zionist you are in a position to explain what the end and means of Anti-Zionism are. What is Zionism, and how do you intend to oppose it? If you have your way, what will the world look like when you succeed?

Originally posted by DJW001

 

Death is never a farce.

Then join me in telling governments to stop the "collateral damage". If you are friends with Israeli people of influence it is more likely they will listen to your voice, so you should tell them, rather than those who view you as their opponent.

Deliberately targeting civilians is a war crime.

You side-stepped my question one more time, it was about numbers.

Since you seem not to like the word "attempt," let me try something more positive sounding: desire. Hamas' desire to kill Israelis is usually thwarted, but it is there.

I am not opposed to any word. I was making the point that you are hateful, you try to spread hate to others, and your motives are, at the very least, questionable. I am not saying that there is no hate coming from the other side. If you want to be constructive rather than destructive, you need to come up with ideas, not to justify or perpetuate the hate, but to de-escalate the conflict. So far, I have seen very little effort from you in that direction.

But what if they bought it legally? Do those who purchased the land legally deserve to suffer the same as those who did not?

"Legal" by whose laws? I do not believe the Balfour Declaration and the 1947 UN Partition Plan were in accordance with Palestinian law. If a Palestinian volunteered to sell his land on his free will, then the Israeli bought it rightfully. But who will decide if they did so with free will and which law should apply?

What, in your estimation, is the goal of Zionism? Why is it a trap? What is the ultimate agenda?

Short answer: To make people fight a never-ending war. War allows control and is profitable. BOTH sides are being set up.
Ultimately, Long answer: We had regional empires before, but the powers that President Wilson is referring to wanted the world to be divided into nation-states. Not coincidentally, Britain was "chosen" in the 1700's for the task of invading much of the world and dividing it into nation-sized chunks (notice, there was nothing official that told them to do this). In Europe, the "Holy Roman Empire" had seized to function. Napoleon was tasked to destroy it, so that something new can be built in its place. 1871 saw the creation of the German Empire, which during its 47 years received more Nobel Prizes than GB, F, US and Russia combined (see Wiki). This, also, was not coincidental but due to the help from those same powers. By then, Germany had become a viable opponent to Britain but its Chancellor Bismarck was not war-hungry. He was taken out of office by Kaiser Wilhelm, the grandson of Queen Victoria and first cousin of then-current King George V, who then led Germany into the WWI. Afterwards George V provided sanctuary for Wilhelm by preventing his extradition (this is significant because it proves his complicity). It can be said (cui bono) that Britain benefitted from the war because it was threatened by the rise of the new nation on the continent. Once the nation-states had been created, to further consolidate power, they needed wars and/or revolutions. That is what really motivated the creation of the movement called Zionism in the 1880's. In Russia, which was reigned by ANOTHER first cousin of King George V, the same group of people (a select few people, mainly Jews) was used to create the Bolshevik Revolution in 1917. The Balfour Declaration to help Jewish people move to Palestine was also issued in 1917. And given the stalemate between GB and German military forces, the US was needed to enter the war. It did so after a "false flag" attack on the Lusitania also in 1917, and, pressure from the Jewish financial power houses. (Notice, that President Wilson had signed the Federal Reserve Act into law 4 years earlier, under the same pressure.) The powers that Wilson is quoting do not care about Jews, GB, US or any other group. Their agenda is simply to gain power over the most people. One of their tools is Zionism.

Excellent! As an Anti-Zionist you are in a position to explain what the end and means of Anti-Zionism are. What is Zionism,

ONE MORE TIME: ZIONISM IS A CONSPIRACY TO TRAP AND SET-UP THE JEWISH PEOPLE,
(just like the Bolshevik Revolution was a set-up, both 1917).

and how do you intend to oppose it?

By speaking out against it in Forums like this one. I believe people are becoming more aware of the real issues behind the rhetoric and that Zionism is already on its way into obsolence, there is no need to fight it with weapons.

If you have your way, what will the world look like when you succeed?

1) The name of the country will be Piaslreasetline. 2) The people who live there will be those whoever agree to quit killing each other. 3) When browsing the web, I will no longer be offended by Hate speech "cloaked" (or should I say "thinly veiled") as Anti-Hate speech.that

reply to post by ThinkingHuman

You side-stepped my question one more time, it was about numbers.

Killing one innocent civilian intentionally is a war crime. Happy?

reply to post by ThinkingHuman


Zionism is a conspiracy? By who? As far as I was aware, Zionism was a quest to create a Jewish homeland. They succeeded in the face of dreadful odds after the largest and most murderous pogrom ever. I might disagree with the way they're going about things at the moment, but they've made a democracy and a viable state out of a rather unpleasant area.

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by ThinkingHuman

 

You side-stepped my question one more time, it was about numbers.

Killing one innocent civilian intentionally is a war crime. Happy?

Apparently you do not understand the word "numbers" (of how many Jews were killed versus how many Palestinians were killed). Or should I say you are side-stepping my question, as you have the habit of doing when it is inconvenient for you. But you are not alone. Zionism is simply indefensible.

Zionism CAUSES Anti-Semitism, amplifies whatever Anti-Semitism existed already. Anti-Zionism is trying to talk sense into previously innocent Jews who were blinded by the conspirators. And who are ticked into giving up their peaceful lives and tricked into killing - for what? To make a homeland out of a land that has not been home for a THOUSAND YEARS.

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg
reply to post by ThinkingHuman

 

Zionism is a conspiracy? By who? As far as I was aware, Zionism was a quest to create a Jewish homeland. They succeeded in the face of dreadful odds after the largest and most murderous pogrom ever. I might disagree with the way they're going about things at the moment, but they've made a democracy and a viable state out of a rather unpleasant area.

Of course. I believe I answered your questions already. I don't know if you read them because you don't dispute any of the facts or conclusions I drew.
Of course, Jewish people are highly skilled, that is why they were "chosen".

How many "murderous pogroms" have there been in the US? If you have the choice betwen being a lawyer or doctor in the US, or carrying a machine gun in Israel to kill the people who express their hate for you by comitting suicide, which choice makes more sense? The pogrom in Kiev is the reaason why you must now kill Palestinians?

Do not tell me that you must "defend" yourself, because, if Zionism was not a conspiracy, then it was YOUR CHOICE.

reply to post by DoorKnobEddie


And look at the lies and demonization of Idi Amin in their media and most recently they tried to grab Uganda again with the Kony propaganda

reply to post by ThinkingHuman

Apparently you do not understand the word "numbers" (of how many Jews were killed versus how many Palestinians were killed). Or should I say you are side-stepping my question, as you have the habit of doing when it is inconvenient for you. But you are not alone. Zionism is simply indefensible.

And you seem not to understand the concept of "war crime." It has nothing to do with numbers, everything to do with intent.Is intentionally killing six million civilians a war crime? Does it stop being a war crime at five million? Four? On the other hand, collateral damage is inevitable; it is in the nature of war for civilians to be killed when they are in the proximity of a military target. The best way for an army to avoid collateral damage is to target precisely. The best way to defend against collateral damage is to keep the population away from military targets.

Originally posted by DJW001

 

Apparently you do not understand the word "numbers" (of how many Jews were killed versus how many Palestinians were killed). Or should I say you are side-stepping my question, as you have the habit of doing when it is inconvenient for you. But you are not alone. Zionism is simply indefensible.

And you seem not to understand the concept of "war crime." It has nothing to do with numbers, everything to do with intent.Is intentionally killing six million civilians a war crime?

You are being offensive and ridiculous now. Finally you mention numbers - but misleadingly, to give the impression to the unseasoned reader that Palestinians have killed millions of people.

Shame on you.