If alien life can detect us and we can't detect back is it worth it for them?, page 2

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reply posted on 14-12-2012 @ 03:22 AM by Merriman Weir

I think the idea that extra-terrestrials are primarily interested in us is an odd one. We might be of secondary interest compared to other phenomena: such as the actual make-up of the planet, the atmosphere, the wider ecological system.

For an extra-terristrial (the nuts and bolts take on UFOs as opposed to ultra-terrestrials), to cross the stars to get here means that they've climbed their technology tree higher than we've climbed ours. It's possible that at one time they were at a similar stage of development and either easily surpassed our or took a completely different turning.

A good analogue here is China. China was, generally, a fantastically advanced civilisation in many ways, but peaked at feudal, pre-industrialised society and there's arguments that suggest that they stalled and stagnated in a particular direction of their technology because they formulated a 'tea culture'. As tea became such a fundamental role in their culture, there was no real need to create alternatives to their pottery industry and therefore glass never saw general manufacture. Without that glass, windows never became an issue, they didn't invent lenses and so on, nor any of the inventions that would result from any of this. Humans would be the 'Chinese' in this example.

reply posted on 14-12-2012 @ 06:02 AM by Wrabbit2000

reply to post by Panic2k11

I think you may be assuming a couple things I'm not. First, the argument of distances keeps coming up. If there is not a way to exceed light speed ...or the effective appearance of it by any of a number of theories out there.. then this is all a moot point and we better accept that we are where we are and we'll never go anywhere else.

I think it's the assumption and natural drive that says these are problems that will get solved. Just as Man was certain ..at one time..the sound barrier could never be crossed, or if it could, it wouldn't be survivable. Well.... that was proven wrong with so many other things. Now we're in Space and recorded man hasn't even been past the Moon once. I think we're only just starting to learn what we don't know.

The other thing though...We naturally seem to look upon the Universe and life's place in it within our own sense of time and concept of it's passing. To us...10,000 years is a long time. Then again, to us, the Sun is a BIG thing. The first time I saw and understood the scale of Betelguese, I was speechless. The Universe is Billions of years old. For all we know, a couple light years away could be a civilization with a billion years of continuous and ongoing development. I couldn't even imagine where we'd be after that.

As for monitoring? Which makes more sense? Send a thousand little mass produced probes off in every direction to report back if they detect certain things....and then let them go? Or actually try and explore all those directions and 99% dead ends with living missions? I'd bet if life IS common, there are more of those probes floating around space than we'd think.

reply posted on 14-12-2012 @ 06:04 AM by Panic2k11

reply to post by Merriman Weir

China was, generally, a fantastically advanced civilisation in many ways, but peaked at feudal, pre-industrialised society and there's arguments that suggest that they stalled and stagnated in a particular direction of their technology because they formulated a 'tea culture'. As tea became such a fundamental role in their culture, there was no real need to create alternatives to their pottery industry and therefore glass never saw general manufacture. Without that glass, windows never became an issue, they didn't invent lenses and so on, nor any of the inventions that would result from any of this. Humans would be the 'Chinese' in this example.

You make some good points but there are some incorrections and some assertions are very dismissive on the general context and external influences.

First China peaked at a Imperialistic stage, not feudal, they had matched and even supplanted technological mostly the Japanese. Japan had several advantages in comparison, first they were more isolated (Island), smaller and due to the warfare the society was more cohesive, this things did not happen to China they had to deal with the Mongols (remember the dark age of Europe), and they had the unfortunate idea to fallow a self imposed policy of isolationism, they we in fact the major power of the region until Western contact started to undermine their social structure, the state of underdevelopment of Russia and its focus on European contact also did not help.

The real advance in Europe came from cultural and social evolution, started with the Greeks and further developed by the Romans, especially in the area of laws and religion, social control structures that permitted it to survive the dark ages, from there on the advances were made mostly due to expansion and discovery and subjugation of other cultures. Imagine if Alexander the great managed to contact China (he reached India and Afghanistan), the cultural exchange would have made our world completely different. Imagine Romans with explosives

[Ancient Rome (9th century BC – 5th century AD) - Gunpowder was, according to prevailing academic consensus, discovered in the 9th century in China, attributed to Chinese alchemists searching for an elixir of immortality]

The real downfall of China started with the contact with the British Empire, after the Anglo-Americans (more than other Europeans, note for example the the Portuguese, that established the first global empire, they were the first to reach Japan had already a long contact with China), see Macau:

The history of Macau is traced back to the Qin Dynasty (221–206 BC), when the region now called Macau came under the jurisdiction of Panyu county, in Nanhai prefecture (present day Guangd ong).

The first recorded inhabitants of the area were people seeking refuge in Macau from invading Mongols during the Southern Song Dynasty. Under the Ming Dynasty (1368–1644 AD), fishermen migrated to Macau from Guangd ong and Fujian provinces. Flag of the Government of Portuguese Macau (1976–1999) Macau did not develop as a major settlement until the Portuguese arrived in the 16th century. In 1513, Jorge Álvares became the first Portuguese to land in China. In 1535, Portuguese traders obtained the rights to anchor ships in Macau's harbours and to carry out trading activities, though not the right to stay onshore.

Around 1552–1553, they obtained temporary permission to erect storage sheds onshore, in order to dry out goods drenched by sea water; they soon built rudimentary stone houses around the area now called Nam Van. In 1557, the Portuguese established a permanent settlement in Macau, paying an annual rent of 500 taels ( 20 kilograms / 44 pounds ) of silver. The Portuguese continued to pay an annual tribute up to 1863 in order to stay in Macau.

By 1564 Portugal commanded western trade with India, Japan, and China. But their pride was shocked by the indifference with which the Chinese treated them. (The senate of Macau once complained to the viceroy of Goa of the contempt with which the Chinese authorities treated them, confessing however that “it was owing more to the Portuguese themselves than to the Chinese”.) In 1631 the Chinese restricted Portuguese commerce in China to the port of Macau.

From Wikipedia's Macau

[The Portuguese Empire (and even colonialism) should not ever be confused with the behavior of other nations, there the level of depredation and exploitation can not even be compared. Things started to get a bit more similar only after a state of competition with and cultural influence from the UK/Holland. Even the Spanish Empire was probably more inclined to exploitation due to the pressures of its relation with other European nations.]

This clearly shows that the resulting decrepitude was due to the continued policy of isolationism allied with the undermining that happened after other Western Powers reached China (and Japan), especially the Anglo-Americans (see Opium Wars, Black Ships and Gunboat diplomacy).

edit on 14-12-2012 by Panic2k11 because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 14-12-2012 @ 06:27 AM by Panic2k11

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

That was what I pointed out it depends on how you see the aliens. I do believe in aliens visiting/presence on Earth but I do not think that they need to use FTL transportation. There are a vast number of possibilities, one that I pointed out is why send probes to monitor if the best technological way to do it (if they do not share our moral constrains) it to create living probes that grow life as they move around (there are many options open in this aspect, I only pointed out some of the benefits there are plenty more on designing and spreading "your own genes"), this seems more easily done than was proposed (not only FTL traveling but a relay of updated information to the source).

reply posted on 14-12-2012 @ 07:32 AM by samkent

I think you over estimate our impact on the universe.

Our radio emissions are far to weak to reach even the nearest star.
I doubt you could detect one of our nukes from the Moon let alone from another star.

Plus if they have the tech to get here then they have no need for humans.

reply posted on 18-12-2012 @ 11:44 PM by swampcricket

All depends on how they are sent. Ever heard of a radio telescope? They seem to do far reaching studies in deep space so yes it can be done

Originally posted by samkent
I think you over estimate our impact on the universe.

Our radio emissions are far to weak to reach even the nearest star.
I doubt you could detect one of our nukes from the Moon let alone from another star.

Plus if they have the tech to get here then they have no need for humans.