Time to deny ignorance in the Middle East

reply to post by RizeorDie


It is not the poor guy's fault, nobody is blaming the Palestinians, it is the organization which dominates there and flamed the area to another war. Did you read the OP? Mostly likely you didn't. If Mexico would be ruled by guriella fighters and would tease the U.S and fire 600 rockets towards Texas, and the U.S retaliates, it is the Mexicans who are sadly got caught in the middle.

In that case, Mexico should stop firing at Houston. But they still threatening millions of civilians. What would you do?


I did not made the map, the truth is that most are Muslim countries and most of them supports Palestine. Israel has nowhere to go and was founded while voted legally by the UN by the majority of nations, can Palestine say the same? However, it is not the point. Palestine has the right to exist equally as Israel and just as everybody else, but existence has to follow an urge to live and to evolve, while hatred and ignorance only brings us backwards.

Calling one nation illegal makes no point at all, no land belongs to any nation. It is a game being played for a while that we believe to be true. Here's how it is, simply:

Originally posted by RizeorDie
Israel is an illegal state on land which does not belong it, so whatever happens on that land they have it coming.

Using that logic, Hamas is an illegal organization and whatever happens on the borders of the population that democratically elected it, they had it coming.
Keep that in mind the next time you're going to cry and moan about Israeli aggression.

Originally posted by Shuye

Calling one nation illegal makes no point at all, no land belongs to any nation. It is a game being played for a while that we believe to be true. Here's how it is, simply:

try telling that to the so called chosen people of God and their so called promised land

on the other hand, according to you, if no land belongs to any nation, then no land belongs to anyone, and so i can take your house by overwhelming you and your family, no?

reply to post by Shuye


I enjoyed your article because I like to see all sides of the coin.
I see you started your timeline from

Link 1 - Hamas commits war crimes, launching 600 rocket attacks on Israeli civilians: Where's the UN condemnation? (November 6, 2012)

Why didnt you start from the third of November 2012?

Reuters) - Gunfire from Israeli forces killed a Palestinian boy in the Gaza Strip on Thursday, local medics said, during border clashes between the Israeli military and Palestinian militants. The Popular Resistance Committees (PRC), a militant group, said its gunmen had confronted an Israeli force of four tanks and a bulldozer involved in a short-range incursion beyond Israel's border fence with the Gaza Strip.

Reuters
Incursian
1. An aggressive entrance into foreign territory; a raid or invasion.
2. The act of entering another's territory or domain.

from this article doesnt it mean that Israel not only entered Gaza illegaly but also shot a 12 year old boy?
again from the article for those who didnt click the link

The incident broke nearly two weeks of a lull in violence between Gaza gunmen and Israeli forces since the last wave of fighting that killed several militants, mostly from Hamas.

so 2 weeks of nothing and then a 12 year old boy gets shot and you start the time line from 3 days later?
a little selective if you are claiming that you are denying ignorance.

reply to post by RizeorDie


You clearly missed the point (Again I must say). I was rushing to a point that I thought you will understand, a higher perspective of the conflict. Apparently you have used it to counter what I said for the sake of your own argument, instead of trying to make sense out of the bigger picture.

I hope you will one day understand what i'm talking about here, if we wish to finally live in peace on this planet and evolve from the pity conflicts. I guess the fact (apparently) that you do not live in the war zone means that you are willing to enjoy the show without getting physically involved, although you believe you already figured everything out.

reply to post by munkey66


Apparently I've missed that part, my apologies. I didn't followed the news prior to the beginning of the operation, and was only falsifying the notion of Israel decided to turn against Gaza on November 14 because I knew tension war rising. I do know that 600 rockets didn't fell merely in those 3 days, that would be inconceivable and newsworthy.

To be honest I don't believe there's a single event that sparkled this whole thing, the border with Gaza is always tensed and full of minor events and teasing from both sides that almost never hit even the local media.

Originally posted by maloy

Originally posted by RizeorDie
Israel is an illegal state on land which does not belong it

The US is also an illegal state. It belongs to native Americans! Name me any country, and I will tell you why in someone's world it is an illegal state.

And what may I inquire constitutes a "legal" state. In fact what is a "legal" state? Legal according to whom? To you? Well sorry to tell you, but Israel doesn't even know you exist, let alone give a **** about what you consider to be legal.

edit on 21-11-2012 by maloy because: (no reason given)

With that logic anybody anywhere with a big enough gun can take whatever land they like.....after all that is how ALL land in the past became "owned".

However, back to the real world. Over the centuries we have drawn up laws and treaties, documents of ownership, created groups to work on disputes etc etc. The end result is that despite whatever has happen over the centuries we work with the current situation with current groups and current laws etc. and try to resolve long standing issues along with a hefty does of realism.

So wrt Isreal. It's takeover of Palestine was illegal becasue it went against the (very slowly) growing consenus at the time to establishing homelands in the area which was being discussed amongst many parties (British, UN, Palestinians, many arab states, jewish groups etc). The Zionists along with support from the US rode rough shod over all discussions and agreements...hence illegal. Israel still occupies land in contravention to UN articles...hence illegal. Isreal still supports expansion of its settlers into ever more areas occupied by palestinians...hence illegal.

HOWEVER, reality check, there is no way in hell all jews in Isreal can leave and give the land back to the Palestinians (except those bits which were originally jewish anyway!)

So both sides MUST compromise:
* Palestinians need to accept that Isreal will exist.
* Israeli's need to pull back to the UN established borders.

want to know why the US forced the creation of Isreal and continues its monetary support?.....think about it......All those Jews post WWII had to go somewhere and where the hell do you think they would have travelled to if there was no Isreal? Where would all the current occupants go if Isreal was handed back to the Palestinians..........makes sense now doesn't it.

Originally posted by Shuye
reply to post by munkey66

 

Apparently I've missed that part, my apologies, but I do know that 600 rockets didn't fell merely in those 3 days.

To be honest I don't believe there's a single event that sparkled this whole thing, the border with Gaza is always tensed and full of minor events and teasing from both sides that almost never hit even the local media.

so if you missed that bit of information, what else are you missing?

A 12 year old boy being shot by a soldier here would be on he front of every paper and news update.

are you also missing other vital bits of information about others who have been shot or taken into custody?
doesnt this make your claim of "deny ignorance" more a case of "ignorance is bliss"?

reply to post by Shuye

good but I can not dismiss that Israel cooperated with Arab monarchies to destabilize Syria and then it attacked Sudan and after 4 years of spending billion dollars on it's Iron dome, Netanyahu started a war he wanted to overtake Olmert to show off for Israelis to vote for him !!! yes Israel does not need any good reason for war it starts it like a game !!!!
the only solution for peace is that the neighbours of Israel become equipped as much as they can. this can prevent Israel from starting a war simply. if Israel feels insecurity it is itself the cause !

reply to post by munkey66


At least i'm willing to admit I have missing pieces of the puzzle, and take into consideration data from the "other side" of the conflict and toss my ego aside while at it. Do you?
Or were you merely interested in countering the OP, searching carefully for some missing data only to write a post that smells of propaganda?

Like I said, there's no chance on earth this incident made Gaza firing 600 rockets in 3 days. It would have been a declaration of war, and it didn't happen.

Read post #2, if you wish to understand the underlined intention of the OP. I gave it some thought, and it wasn't for the purpose of saying Israel > Gaza. Sadly, it seems that like you, most people missed the point and that's a shame, but I cannot say that i'm surprised.

reply to post by Shuye


This propaganda map you posted fails to mention the 750,000 Palestinians that were displaced by the occupation of this land. It may seem like a small piece of land compared to it's surroundings, but try telling that to those whos lives have been turned upside down due to this unjust theft of land.Their ancestors are now living in regugee camps in neighboring countries or trapped in the Gaza prison or Apartheid West bank.



Gotta love the smell of propaganda in the morning

Deny ignorance indeed...

Thanks OP, for giving your side of the story.

Only by hearing from both sides can one know enough to discern truths. The greater the topics covered, there greater the discussion, and from such can truths be gleaned from. Enough is enough with ignorances or plain wilful insane disinformation from hate groups.

One the most blatant lie I ever heard is that Palestine is Arab land. That is a joke, because if the timeline stretches back to to biblical age - to belonged to all mankind of many tribes then. There was no such state as Palestine during those times.

Draw the line more recent times, and you will find the Ottoman empire occupying all arab lands, including what is palestine.

And living there were both arabs, of muslims and non-muslims, christian, persians, jews, etc whom dates back to even the Ottoman empire.

Hamas claims palestine - never a state before, as belonging SOLEY to arab muslims only living there. That's delusion of the highest order. Many other ethnic groups lived there too. Hama refusal to accept this fact and demanded the death or eviction of jews is nothing more than PURE GENOCIDE.

Hamas and Jews must learn to live together, to SHARE the land. The more Hamas pushes it 'death to jews' agenda, the more stubborn the jews will become and retaliate back with restrictions, and future generations doom to war and suffering.

Fortunately, today, with the ceasefire, Hamas had been forced to acknowledged the existance of Israel, otherwise Hamas would have continued to bomb Israel till all jews are dead, as is their former policy.

The new generations deserves to live in peace, with the older generation dying soon. May the ceasefire be the harbinger of better things to come for both new generations of jews and muslims sharing the land.

Good luck, OP.

How did the 'palestinian refugees' came about?

That's something those anti jews will never have the guts to tell the TRUTH of WHY!

except to continually claimed it was because jews booted them out to steal their land.

I truly wonder how those anti-semites could sleep at night and live with lies.

reply to post by Corruption Exposed

Their ancestors are now living in regugee camps in neighboring countries or trapped in the Gaza prison or Apartheid West bank.

So, why have all of these refugees been living in camps in neighboring countries for years? Why aren't ANY of these neighboring countries trying to help them create a better life in their countries if they want to?

Arab states

The Arab League has instructed its members to deny citizenship to original Palestine Arab refugees (or their descendants) "to avoid dissolution of their identity and protect their right to return to their homeland".

Tashbih Sayyed, a fellow of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, criticized Arab nations of violating human rights and making the children and grandchildren of Palestinian refugees second class citizens in Lebanon, Syria, or the Gulf States, and said that the UNRWA Palestine refugees "cling to the illusion that defeating the Jews will restore their dignity".

en.wikipedia.org...

Hmmmm....I wonder who keeps pumping the Palestinian refugees with the notion that "defeating the Jews will restore their dignity"? The Muslim terrorists?

The Palestinian refugees are nothing but pawns in the game to create a region of "political Islam" in the Middle East, which can only be done if Israel is done away with.

Originally posted by munkey66so 2 weeks of nothing and then a 12 year old boy gets shot and you start the time line from 3 days later?a little selective if you are claiming that you are denying ignorance.

How do we know this isn't carefully prepared disinformation thread.

We DO know, that Israel is very active on the internet with their "information" Just saying.

I've been to Israel, I know how things are done.

reply to post by SeekerofTruth101

How did the 'palestinian refugees' came about?

The "Nakba".

You're welcome

By the way, calling people anti-Semites is not helping your already flawed argument.

reply to post by Corruption Exposed


Either you are really ignorant, or just plain insistant on deny the truth of what happened in 1948 in the bristish mandate. You still dare not tell the truth.

Do you hate the jews so much that you want the new generations to follow your hatred by ignoring the truth?

Prior to 1947 civil war in palestine, muslims and jews had long been at loggerheads with each other. With the partition plan by UN, as it did for India and Pakistan, unfortunately, the muslims were not keen and hell bent on keeping palestine islamic.

It resulted in the civil war, with brutalities on both sides, and many fleeing from the homes to avoid the battles by the jewish forces and the arab liberation army, funded and supplied with troops from muslim neighbouring states.

With UN, and majority votes by rest of mankind to avert further deaths and sufferings to both muslims and jews, the partition plan was voted into effect.

The neighbouring Islamic states were not happy with international rule of law, and decided to take matters into its own hands, and launched a war of conquest in 1948 upon Israel. Muslims only naturally flee for safety into those neighbouring states, whom pompously announced that they would annihilate the jews in short time.

They failed, despite Israel, only a tiny nation whom needed help from all, but was abandoned by many muslims - est 700,000 of them, won. Unfortunately, the feelings of abandonment and hurt ran deep. Those est 700,000 muslims made a choice on their own free will, and will have to live with it.

Not satisfied, the islamic states started unilaterally another few wars, and lost not only naive men, but territories abandoned as well, lands that they had thought to conquer.

Today, Israel has returned those lands, although there is NO winner of wars throughout the course of our human civilisation had ever done that willingly. The Israelites only asked for peace in return.

Unfortunately, Hamas had vowed 'death to jews' even though given back west bank and gaza. Thus the blockades, settlement building, retalitory defenses against those whom refused to talk but to kill all jews.

WIth this ceasefire, may hamas and any other truth denier finally come to their senses. We can all live in peace, in a world where there is enough for all as long as one uses it creatively and innovatively, and not for stupidities of hating or killing one another.

Originally posted by Corruption Exposed
reply to post by Shuye

 

This propaganda map you posted fails to mention the 750,000 Palestinians that were displaced by the occupation of this land. It may seem like a small piece of land compared to it's surroundings, but try telling that to those whos lives have been turned upside down due to this unjust theft of land.Their ancestors are now living in regugee camps in neighboring countries or trapped in the Gaza prison or Apartheid West bank.

Gotta love the smell of propaganda in the morning

Deny ignorance indeed...

Once again, you intentionally misrepresent the facts in support of your not so hidden agenda. The smell of propaganda indeed.

The 750,000 Palestinians that were displaced was the direct result of the Arab delegation in the region ordering them to vacate the land in 1948, in advance of a coordinated military attack by several Arab nations aginst Israel the day after Israel accepted the UN Partition Plan and declared independence.

After Israel won the war, the indigenous Arabs in the land that didn't flee prior to the war became Israeli citizens. Today, over 1.5 million indigenous Arabs enjoy equal rights, proudly serve in the IDF, have an elected political party in the Israeli parliament, and enjoy a higher standard of living than most Arabs living in muslim countries. Israel is the only true democracy in the middle east.

Gaza and the West Bank are not prisons. Both regions are self governed. The only Israeli control is on the borders to prevent terrorists from infiltrating Israel. Furthermore, the people in both regions decided to elect their political representatives.

In the West Bank, under the moderate leadership of Fatah, the people have prospered over the last several years, because Fatah has sought the path of diplomacy, and has used the foreign financial aid they receive annually to invest in the infrastructure and social institutions for the well being of the people.

Conversely, the people of Gaza elected a terrorist militant group that is sworn to the destruction of Israel as their "government", after Israel ceded the land to Palestinian control a few years ago. As a result, instead of investing hundreds of million dollars of foreign financial that they recieve annually in the well being of the people of Gaza, Hamas buys weapons and rocket launchers to murder Israeli civilians. The living conditions in Gaza and the needless bloodshed are direct consequences of corrupt leadership with a twisted political agenda.

While Jordan actually holds more Palestinian refugees than Gaza, allowing some of them citizenship of Jordan, what are the underlying stipulations for becoming a citizen? And why did they start revoking them in 1988?

The government says it is trying to help by requiring Jordanians of Palestinian descent who fled the West Bank or Jerusalem after the war in 1967 to keep their Israeli documents valid.

and...

The authorities said that it was incumbent upon each Palestinian to return to Israel every three years — to preserve their right to return to the occupied land and as a condition for keeping their Jordanian citizenship.

So, why is that?

What's been happening...

AMMAN, Jordan — Muhannad Haddad grew up here, went to school here, got a job in a bank here and traveled to foreign countries with a passport from here. Then one day the authorities said he was no longer Jordanian, and with that one stroke they took away his citizenship and compromised his ability to travel, study, work, seek health care, buy property or even drive.

New York Times Amran al-Tarsha said a government official confiscated all of his Jordanian documents. The authorities effectively told him they were doing it for his own good. They said that like thousands of other Jordanians of Palestinian descent, he was being stripped of his citizenship to preserve his right to someday return to the occupied West Bank or East Jerusalem.

“They gave me a paper that said, ‘You are now Palestinian,’ ” he said, recalling the day three years ago that his life changed.

www.nytimes.com...

(Article dated March 13, 2010)

Salam OP.

I ask 7 question since it's time to deny ignorance.

1 - Why did Israelis kill Plaestinians in their homes in Deir yasin and Shatila ?

2 - Why are Israelis taking lands of Local people by force ?

3 - Where is the historical proof that all former inhabitants of the land were expelled out from their homes ?

4 - Why did you go toIsrael after European people (hitler) killed you ?

5 - Why are the Jews behind the porno industry ?

6 - What are the Israelie elites pursuing in Kabalah ?

7 - What is the plan of Nile till Euphrates ?

With all respect .

I am Iranian Muslim and I wish peace to those who don't want to harm.