Where was Israel?

Originally posted by Beavers
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Does he say that to Jacob or Abraham tho. If it was to Abraham, then he's not talking about the Nation of Israel, but the Nation of Abraham, which would include all of his offspring, who also have as much right to their own plot of land in that area.

Deuteronomy 2:

4 And command thou the people, saying, Ye are to pass through the coast of your brethren the children of Esau, which dwell in Seir; and they shall be afraid of you: take ye good heed unto yourselves therefore:

5 Meddle not with them; for I will not give you of their land, no, not so much as a foot breadth; because I have given mount Seir unto Esau for a possession.

Esau was the brother of Israel (aka Jacob, both Grandchildren to Abraham) and Mount Seir is well within the borders of your picture. There are a few other people's along the journey in this map who Moses is told he can't have too.

You've used IAMTHATIAM in your reference too, so I'm assuming he actually did say it Moses, rather than Abraham, which just makes the whole thing a massive contradiction

. Where does your 'Nile and the Euphrates' quote come from again, just so I can reference it?

Yahveh made the land covenant with Abraham in Genesis 15:18 where Abraham's seed would inherit the land. The Israelites are part of Abraham's decendants, as is Esau, but Jacob tricked Esau into giving up his birthright. What consists of modern Israel the land of Canaan.

The seed (decendants) of Abraham are those who follow God and his plan for Salvation through Jesus Christ and this is what Paul says of the oreal in Galatians.

Galatians 3:15-18

15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Galatians 3:26-29

26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

So in essence Paul is not saying the land belongs to the physical decendants of Abraham, but to the spiritual decendants of Abraham who are in Jesus Christ. Now this is not to say there will not be genetic decendants of Abraham added to this, because there were and there are to this day and there will be more in the future as the prophecies declare in Hosea 5:15 and Matthew 23:39 which is the day Zechariah 11:10 fulfills and the jews turn towards Christ and fulfills John 10:16 which is in refernce to the gentile people God took for himself during the Time of the Nations (Time of the Gentiles). So, the land does not belong to orthodox jewery, nor to the muslim, but to the massianic jews and christians who have Jesus Christ as their Savior. The 2 people become one through Jesus, no longer jew nor greek (gentile).

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Here goes Mr. All knowing once again:

Abrahamic religions (also Abrahamism) are the monotheistic faiths emphasizing and tracing their common origin to Abraham[1] or recognizing a spiritual tradition identified with him.[2][3][4] They are one of the major divisions in comparative religion, along with Indian religions (Dharmic), East Asian religions (Taoic) and Neopaganism. As of the early twenty-first century, it was estimated that 54% of the world's population (3.8 billion people) considered themselves adherents of the Abrahamic religions, about 30% of other religions, and 16% of no religion.[5][6] The Abrahamic religions originated in Western Asia.[7]

The largest Abrahamic religions are, in chronological order of founding, Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Baha'i Faith.

Source

"The three main Abrahamic religions have certain similarities. All are monotheistic, and conceive God to be a transcendent Creator-figure and the source of moral law,[9] and their sacred narratives feature many of the same figures, histories, and places in each, although they often present them with different roles, perspectives, and meanings."

Give me one reason why I should believe your Holy book but discredit the rest? I really want to know what makes you so closed minded, believing whatever you say is the absolute truth?

Geee... this has left me speechless and confused, good debate here

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Interesting reply thanks,

I'm not sure that God would support Jacob, just because Jacob tricks Easu into taking the birthright tho... If anything God is more likely to punish him , and you could argue that 300 -3000 years of slavery was his punishment? (or however long it would take to create an army of 600,000+ slaves from 70 of Jospeh's directly family who moved to Egypt)

And this is what God tells Moses when searching for the promised land:

Deuteronomy 2: 4 And command thou the people, saying, Ye are to pass through the coast of your brethren the children of Esau, which dwell in Seir; and they shall be afraid of you: take ye good heed unto yourselves therefore:

5 Meddle not with them; for I will not give you of their land, no, not so much as a foot breadth; because I have given mount Seir unto Esau for a possession.

Paul & Co may well be right, but would this not still imply that God was only giving the area of Canaan to the Children of Jacob/Israel and that by taking Esau's land today (and all the other descendants of Abraham, who were also promised a plot equal to that of Moses), that people of Israel are going against God by living there today?

Originally posted by DeadSnow
"The three main Abrahamic religions have certain similarities. All are monotheistic, and conceive God to be a transcendent Creator-figure and the source of moral law,[9] and their sacred narratives feature many of the same figures, histories, and places in each, although they often present them with different roles, perspectives, and meanings."

Give me one reason why I should believe your Holy book but discredit the rest? I really want to know what makes you so closed minded, believing whatever you say is the absolute truth?

I think this line of conversation will just de-rail the thread???? So just to help you back on track, there's no debate about who's religion is right or wrong here, or even if God exists or not.

It's a hypothetical, so we need to assume it's true in order to follow the evidence.

We're doing well so far too

Hmmmm.. all this destruction, why dont these guys just hug it out and say sorry to each other?

reply to post by DeadSnow

Give me one reason why I should believe your Holy book but discredit the rest? I really want to know what makes you so closed minded, believing whatever you say is the absolute truth?

The hebrew bible and the new testament are companion texts, they back eachother up. The Hebrew bible is the foreshadowing of the things to come in the new testament. Judaism and christianity mirror eachother. Islam is the johnny-come-lately the 3rd wheel with it's gross inaccuracies and it's amalgamation of the other faiths in the region that preceded it including but not limited to zoroastrianism, and the polytheistic quraysh religion Muhammad originated from and whom he was also a tribe of and the fact that the chief and supreme deity of said Quraysh tribe was Hu'bal which translates as Ba'al in canaanite and is not the name of the mosaic jewish and christian God.

I'm not the one that's close minded, that would be you, because you make me your enemy when i tell you the truth.

I could point out the similarities between mosaic judaism and christianity and how mosaic judaism is the prophecy of christianity and it's express mirror image, but i doubt you would be able to understand it, much less believe it.

reply to post by Beavers

I'm not sure that God would support Jacob, just because Jacob tricks Easu into taking the birthright tho... If anything God is more likely to punish him , and you could argue that 300 -3000 years of slavery was his punishment? (or however long it would take to create an army of 600,000+ slaves from 70 of Jospeh's directly family who moved to Egypt)

God hated Esau before he was born, knowing he would trade his birthright for a bowl of red soup and because he was ruddy (rud'-i ('adhmoni (1 Sam 16:12; 17:42; Gen 25:25 the Revised Version margin), 'adhom (Song 5:10); verbs 'adham (Lam 4:7), and eruthriao, "to blush" (Ad Est 15:5)): "Ruddy" is the form taken by the adjective "red" when used as a term of praise of the human skin, and this is its use in the Bible (the Hebrew and Greek words are all usual words for "red" or "to be red"). The dark-skinned Hebrews found great beauty in a clear complexion). Jacob wrestled with him for a whole night until the break of dawn until God blessed him, and that was when God renamed Jacob into Israel.

Esau was depicted as a greedy bandit and backstabber. God doesnt have alot of good things to say about Esau in Obadiah 1, or the book of Jashur. The decendants of Esau were given the region around Mt. Seir (the mount of Esau spoken of in Obadiah 1:8) but when Jerusalem was sacked and destroyed, Esau's decendants Edomites "cast lots" for posession of Jerusalem that was given to Israel (tribe of Judah). Esau's decendants were completely exterminated, they no longer exist as is attested too by both Obadiah's prophecy, Isaiah, Ezekiel and Jeremiah which happened around 600 B.C. and Malachi 1:3 mentions their destruction.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Thanks again. Enjoyable read.

I'll keep plodding on with the first book, sounds like I have some catching up to do!

Originally posted by Beavers
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Thanks again. Enjoyable read.

I'll keep plodding on with the first book, sounds like I have some catching up to do!

Read the NT and then read the OT and look for the symbolism between the 2 books, mind blowing stuff. Jesus became my obsession.

Go read John 5:31-47, the NT hadn't been written yet, the scriptures Jesus was refering to is the Torah Moses wrote (first 5 books) and the subsequent OT scriptures in the prophecies and writings. Jesus is telling you in John 5:31-47 to go look for him in the OT.