Can someone please explain to me..., page 1

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Topic started on 14-11-2012 @ 02:02 AM by CryHavoc

Can someone please explain to me what President Obama has done or not done that would make people want to Secede from the United States? Just being re-elected President doesn't cut it. Just the President being Black doesn't make sense either. Although bigots don't make sense sometimes.

There's no point in talking about States Seceding if no one know the real reasons why someone would want that.

Please be specific and factual so we all can have an informed list of reasons.

edit on 14-11-2012 by CryHavoc because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 14-11-2012 @ 02:11 AM by watchitburn

reply to post by CryHavoc

I don't think secession is a good idea, it would be a huge failure in my opinion.

But some good reasons:

Re-signing the PATRIOT Act
NDAA
Using taxpayer money to bail out banks and auto companies.
Mandating citizens purchase a product from a private company or face fines or jail.
Assassinating American citizens.

reply posted on 14-11-2012 @ 02:18 AM by Hawking

A lot of it has to do with the rhetoric being used by right wing extremists like Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and the muppets over on FoxNews. Republicans are believing this insanity.

Do you remember the judge from right here in Lubbock, TX who was worried if Obama were reelected, we'd be overtaken by UN troops? He wanted to raise taxes to form a militia...he wanted my money to humor his deluded perspective of the world

My father was pretty sad recently when he spoke with his best childhood friend, and brought up this nonsense. His friend's response? "Yeah I think he's right..."

People are losing their damn minds.

reply posted on 14-11-2012 @ 02:24 AM by muse7

Originally posted by Hawking
A lot of it has to do with the rhetoric being used by right wing extremists like Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and the muppets over on FoxNews. Republicans are believing this insanity.

Do you remember the judge from right here in Lubbock, TX who was worried if Obama were reelected, we'd be overtaken by UN troops? He wanted to raise taxes to form a militia...he wanted my money to humor his deluded perspective of the world

My father was pretty sad recently when he spoke with his best childhood friend, and brought up this nonsense. His friend's response? "Yeah I think he's right..."

People are losing their damn minds.

Nail on head.

People will bitch about anything today. They complain they're living in a police state because they have to be frisked and go through a metal detector when they board an airplane.

If you don't communicate with terrorists then you have nothing to worry about the Patriot Act or NDAA.

And that american citizen that was "assassinated", he was with a group of men that were linked to terrorists.

reply posted on 14-11-2012 @ 02:25 AM by Wrabbit2000

The reason is as simple now as it was in 1861. State's rights. This time, there isn't the ugly ugly issue of Slavery as a big part of it and things are much cleaner for the reasoning and basis. When it all gets boiled away, it's this simple.

Is the Constitution, without major modifications or dramatic reform, a valid basis to build, guide and inform leadership to the future of our nation?

Or

Is the Constitution something from a different past that, at best, is a vague guideline and worst an anachronism and throwback to a time best overcome.

Specifically, is the 10th Amendment to be honored or ignored as it has been for the better part of 15 years now? Personally, I think this secession idea is suicidally stupid and absolutely ill conceived. Having said that, I can understand the passions behind it. It's what I hear more than ever in casual conversations in public, Distrust and Discontent. Obama happens to be the guy holding the pot as it's finally coming to full boil tho.

edit on 14-11-2012 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 14-11-2012 @ 02:28 AM by semperfortis

Oh For Goodness Sake

People

This is NOT about actual succession

This is an effort by states to regain some of the "individual states powers" that have always been the intent of the Founding Fathers

Our nation was meant to be a nation of individual states, with the majority of power residing in those very same states and a small federal government to handle things like foreign affairs and defense

Regardless of the political leanings of whatever administration happens to be in office, the increase in Fed powers and decrease in State Powers is frightening and needs to be stopped.

The only partisan comment I will make, is that the intent of Liberals is to make all of us dependent on a HUGE federal government and so far they are doing a good job. That being said, even the so called Conservatives over the last few decades have shown this propensity..

Semper

reply posted on 14-11-2012 @ 02:30 AM by calusaf311

I think people are sick of dealing with this garbage... Go ahead and watch the whole video. These are some well informed Obama supporters from the great state of Cali.

Balls to you

YouTube Link

edit on 14-11-2012 by calusaf311 because: found link

reply posted on 14-11-2012 @ 02:39 AM by Hawking

Originally posted by semperfortis

This is NOT about actual succession

Semper

You're right...it's about secession.

And as much as I want to applaud conservatives' Darwinist, survival-of-the-fittest economic plan...I don't want to financially cut off people like vets, the elderly, children, cancer patients in hospices, etc. just so people who don't want to work don't get food stamps

I agree, the jerks who get hired at my job, work for 5 days, then stop showing up so they collect benefits are leeches of the system...but until we reform the system and get more strict on who we help, I am unwilling to reject "The lazy 47%" because many of them NEED it.

edit on 14-11-2012 by Hawking because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 14-11-2012 @ 02:40 AM by thoughtsfull

Looking at the history of my little part of the UK (Southern England) all the calls, and actual declarations of independence down the centuries always come at a time when people are really peeved with central government..

I can't help but apply the same logic here, very peeved off populations tend to dislike central government control and especially when it seems central government oozes an air of "know it all'ness"

As a litmus test it seems to precede times of great change..

So in my mind while watching this unfold, my question to myself is will central government listen to these disgruntled voices and try to make things better or will ignore them and make things worse?

edit on 14/11/12 by thoughtsfull because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 14-11-2012 @ 02:42 AM by zysin5

reply to post by semperfortis

Thanks for the rational response there. I was wondering myself what was going on with all this.
I heard bits and pieces about this today, but knew that what I was hearing on the news and TV was only a small part of what was really going on, and was being spun to serve either their left wing, or right wing agenda.

Your reply made much more sense to me than what I heard on the news or anywhere on TV..

Thanks Semperfortis! Carry on.

reply posted on 14-11-2012 @ 02:44 AM by headorheart

And that american citizen that was "assassinated", he was with a group of men that were linked to terrorists.

Am I heartbroken he is dead? No. Regardless of the fact he was a terrorist, he was an American citizen. He deserved a trail by a jury of his peers. Obama just can't go against the Constitution and start killing people. It's a slippery slope.

edit on 14-11-2012 by headorheart because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 14-11-2012 @ 02:45 AM by semperfortis

reply to post by Hawking

Succession of states is a theory and practice in international relations regarding the recognition and acceptance of a newly created sovereign state by other states, based on a perceived historical relationship the new state has with a prior state. The theory has its root in 19th century diplomacy.

Succession of states

reply posted on 14-11-2012 @ 02:48 AM by watchitburn

reply to post by muse7

Yes, he was a certified scumbag and a terrorist.

But he was still in fact an American citizen.

Where does the Govt. get off assassinating Americans?, That's not how it works in this country. We have something called due process. You don't get to pick and choose where to apply it. Either everyone counts or no one does.

Did the guy deserve death? Absolutely.
But not the way it went down.

And that argument about if you aren't doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry about is complete and utter BS.

Iraq vet arrested on terrorism charges after jogging with training rifle

Was this guy a terrorist? Or maybe just some dude that needs common sense. Or medical help maybe?

reply posted on 14-11-2012 @ 02:50 AM by Quadrivium

If you don't communicate with terrorists then you have nothing to worry about the Patriot Act or NDAA.

Funny you should mention "communicating with terrorist"

YouTube Link

www.youtube.com...

edit on 14-11-2012 by Quadrivium because: fixed link? i hope

reply posted on 14-11-2012 @ 02:56 AM by CryHavoc

Originally posted by watchitburn
Re-signing the PATRIOT Act
NDAA
Using taxpayer money to bail out banks and auto companies.
Mandating citizens purchase a product from a private company or face fines or jail.
Assassinating American citizens.

Everyone should read this - the whole thing.
Assassinating US Citizens

NDAA was started during G.W. Bush's second term.

NDAA 2007

H.R. 5122, also known as the John Warner National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2007 was a bill passed in the United States Congress on September 29, 2006 and signed by President George W. Bush on October 17, 2006 becoming Public Law 109-364.

The Auto Industry bailout started just before Obama took office, late December 2008 to early January 2009. Obama was not involved (although he was probably in the loop at that point).

Why wasn't anyone screaming Secession then?

Also, we have a law in Illinois that say you have to have car insurance or you can have your driver's license suspended. How is that much different than what ObamaCare is saying?

So this still doesn't specifically show why these people want to Secede because Obama was re-elected since most of what you mentioned was started before Obama ever took office.

What specifically related to Obama being re-elected is the reason these people want to Secede?

edit on 14-11-2012 by CryHavoc because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 14-11-2012 @ 03:16 AM by Quadrivium

reply to post by semperfortis

Nicely put Semper.
I agree whole heartedly.

Quad

reply posted on 14-11-2012 @ 03:24 AM by Renegade2283

Originally posted by watchitburn
reply to post by CryHavoc

Re-signing the PATRIOT Act
NDAA
Using taxpayer money to bail out banks and auto companies.
Mandating citizens purchase a product from a private company or face fines or jail.
Assassinating American citizens.

Didn't Bush do all those things? Didn't he also get re-elected? Were there petitions for states succession when he was re-elected? Hmmmm......

reply posted on 14-11-2012 @ 03:34 AM by Wrabbit2000

reply to post by CryHavoc

If you're asking to have a real discussion on it, I'll bite. There are a few things here worth noting.

First, Bush was a bastard. Pardon my french. He got his second term as a Conservative and became what I can only term a Bushist. He absolutely wasn't a Capitalist and he was no Conservative. Not with the TARP and Bailout B.S. and if he wasn't mid crisis, lame ducked and on the tail of his last term....He WOULD have been impeached with bipartisan support, is my honest view. Another year of the one who started it being there to shower anger on and the House would have been publicly pressured to start the proceedings.

Obama came in and turned Bush's half trillion dollars worth of bad bad idea into a BIGGER bad idea, multiplied 3 fold...Literally. So using Bush as an example is fair....and I'd love to see him held to at least testify on what happened. Like who moved MEGA-Billions off shore in a 48 hour period which started Bush and his buddies into a near green faced panic into fiscal insanity way back in the very start?

Next, Obama-care is a dead bird. Period. Missouri passed a Constitutional Amendment this election, by using the clause the Supreme Court left wide open for what I believe was the purpose, to block exchanges entirely and Constitutionally prohibit fine or sanction of any kind against any Missouri Resident for failure to comply with the terms of the Affordable Care Act. Game, Set, Match and with a big Check-Mate. Thanks to the Roberts court. Missouri is NOT the only state to have passed or strengthened the same thing. There are plenty of states that don't have that protection and it can still work there, but the system is written to function as a system not a patch work. It won't last long if fully implemented with many states outright refusing any part of it by their own laws. A mess indeed.

What that doesn't do however.....is remove the regulatory and statutory increases in costs for business and insurance funds (workers comp, for instance that a ONE man business still has to pay to be legal) and that has people pissed off beyond all reason. Take a fair and honest look at just what has been added for direct cost to small construction business in EPA lead compliance regulations. That's down to small 1 or 2 man crews doing windows or whatever, not just Mega companies. It hurts...Bad.

Finally, everything from dictates of school lunches to busting people at farmers markets for selling milk Uncle doesn't like drinking in federal stings has the states and people in them about tired of Uncle putting his grandfatherly image into our lives to become the Grinch.

(to put a little light on things) Obama didn't start it and he didn't have to....He's just the guy doing the same things when push seems to be meeting shove for a good many people, IMO. I don't think Romney would have been given much time either, all things being equal. People are sick of it all from Washington.

reply posted on 14-11-2012 @ 03:35 AM by Renegade2283

Originally posted by muse7

Originally posted by Hawking
A lot of it has to do with the rhetoric being used by right wing extremists like Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and the muppets over on FoxNews. Republicans are believing this insanity.

Do you remember the judge from right here in Lubbock, TX who was worried if Obama were reelected, we'd be overtaken by UN troops? He wanted to raise taxes to form a militia...he wanted my money to humor his deluded perspective of the world

My father was pretty sad recently when he spoke with his best childhood friend, and brought up this nonsense. His friend's response? "Yeah I think he's right..."

People are losing their damn minds.

Nail on head.

People will bitch about anything today. They complain they're living in a police state because they have to be frisked and go through a metal detector when they board an airplane.

If you don't communicate with terrorists then you have nothing to worry about the Patriot Act or NDAA.

And that american citizen that was "assassinated", he was with a group of men that were linked to terrorists.

Well you must admit that the TSA is a bit dramatic and insensitive on occasions.

As for the NDAA and Patriot Act, I must disagree. They have some rather broad language at times that could be used to monitor, restrict rights, detain, etc..... citizens of the US. I am not saying that it is being used for that purpose but it could. Also, if a little framing or entrapment were involved, it wouldn't take much at all.

Also, I believe the statement was plural, "citizens". We may not always know about it, actually we probably rarely know about it. What is a heart attack to one person, is an assassination to another. Heck, just look at this recent thread.

The Mysterious Deaths of Brittany Murphy and Simon Monjack

As for the secessionist, I feel it is racism and conservatism, pure and simple

edit on 14-11-2012 by Renegade2283 because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 14-11-2012 @ 05:19 AM by watchitburn

reply to post by CryHavoc

Bush was just as bad as Obama is now. But everybody let him off scott free.
Many people were freaking out back then too , most notably the far left. Going on about dictatorship, martial law, and suspended elections.

Sound familiar? Pretty much the same stuff the far right was spouting off in the lead up to this election.

Yeah, a lot of that stuff was initiated under Bush, but Obama went right along with it. He could have moved to block it, refused to re sign orders and Acts. But he didn't.

He willfully chose to continue the dismantling of the Constitution. Therefore he is equally to blame as Bush.

edit on 14-11-2012 by watchitburn because: (no reason given)

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