Beta blockers are busted – what happens next?

I have a heart condition. My cardiologist prescribed me Propranolol 12 years ago to help treat my arrhythmia called Atrial Fibrillation (w/rapid ventricular response). A very chaotic, disorganized heart rhythm. So, I've had my fair share of chaotic episodes of tachycardia / palpitations. After I take Propranolol, my heart slows way down, and it quickly converts back to a normal sinus rhythm soon after. So, I don't want to hear a bunch of crap that beta blockers "don't work." I've been taking one for 12 years now, and notice first-hand what they do. Haven't experienced ANY of those melodramatic side effects listed...

Originally posted by Nite_wing
Maybe we should just "Die quickly?"

I've been dealing with some health problems the last few years, and I have to admit this statement cracked me up. It's definitely not fun watch oneself go down the tubes. Bwaha.

reply to post by rickymouse


Thanks. ..Already take chocolate, Vitamin D, sometimes Cod Liver Oil (best is Norwegian cod, almost gone tho). Cinnamon essential for diabetes secondary to radiation from med tests and treatment of kidneys. lol

...I do surprisingly well all things considered - way ahead of the game, impress my doctors, specialists, dieticians, nutritionists etc. FYI - I find those little old ladies in Chinese food and herb stores to be exceptionally knowledgable, but really miss my Chinese doctor from Santa Fe.

reply to post by soficrow


Try eating sunflower seeds. The magnesium is pretty high in them and they are a lot cheaper than brazil nuts. There is evidence out there that magnesium coupled with fiber can keep blood sugar down in many individuals. All the things you have are related you know. It has to do with the energy level and ability of the enzymes to work right. Cinnamon and sugar are both tyramines, but the fructose isn't present in cinnamon. The fructose turns to acetyl aldehyde when absorbed through the gut. Acetyl aldehyde needs a molybdenum enzyme to neutralize it. Sunflower seeds also contain molybdenum in adequate amounts. If you have diverticulitis you can't eat them though. Cream of wheat or cocoa wheat contain a lot of molybdenum. or take a mineral supplement. Too much without copper and you may wind up with hyperthyroidism though and burn out. Sounds like your thyroid may have been effected by those tests, did they use any radioactive dyes?

I imagine they are flawed studies....
first off, they are studies, not experiments.
Second, beta blockers DO lower heart rate and blood pressure. I don't see how your chance of getting a heart attack isn't lower if you lower your heart rate and blood pressure.

Back in the earlier days of EMS, on a cardiac arrest patient it was protocol to inject quite large doses of Sodium Bicarbonate into the blood.

The reasoning was sound, on paper. The patient would have been not breathing thus hypoxic thus in acidosis. Therefore large doses of Sodium Bicarb. were given to counteract this. Anyone remember Johny and Roy from Emergency? "..this is Rampart, give two amps BiCarb.."

Later they realized that all of the medications given in cardiac arrest that ARE beneficial, like Epinephrine, work better in a slightly acidotic state. And even more disturbing they are rendered inert in a base (low ph environment). Also the simple act of ventilating a patient with 100% oxygen and using the bodies natural respiratory buffer system can quickly and effectively reverse the acidosis brought on by the person not breathing.

Basically we were killing our patients before they had a chance.

As knowledge and research continued these things were realized, protocols were adjusted (both in hospital and out of hospital.) Survival rates increased.

Now the push is to get a person having a heart attack to a Cardiac Cath Lab as fast as possible to open the arteries in the heart, in most cases they place 'stents'. If a person does go into cardiac arrest and we get a heart beat back the newest treatment is to put the patient into a mild hypothermia, lowering the metabolism, saving more heart muscle.

My point is for some of us that fight death on a daily basis, this is an ongoing and always developing story. Every day/month/year there is new research, some of it is exciting some of it makes you scratch your head. This recent study on the beta blockers makes me go 'hmmm' but it doesn't surprise me. Just as the article states people are fairing better with newer and better treatments, some of the old treatments may not apply anymore.

This does not include treatment for people with other conditions, such as WPW, they may need regular continued treatment against dangerous heart arrhythmias.

Originally posted by Ghost375
I imagine they are flawed studies....
first off, they are studies, not experiments.
Second, beta blockers DO lower heart rate and blood pressure. I don't see how your chance of getting a heart attack isn't lower if you lower your heart rate and blood pressure.

Well, on the face of it, it does sort of make sense. Say you have ischemic cardiac muscle. It's not totally without circulation, but there's a lot less bloodflow than you want. So, does it make sense that if it's contracting less, or more slowly, or less forcefully, that might use less oxygen when you don't have enough?

Now, *eventually*, YES, you want to improve circulation. Get the guy in the cath lab, a little angioplasty and a stent, and Bob's your uncle. But in the short term, it sort of makes sense that slowing down the rate and forcefulness of contractions might be a good idea, when you don't have sufficient circulation to parts of the heart muscle.

reply to post by Ghost375


If my heartrate drops below a hundred my feet start to swell. It usually stays between one ten and one twenty. My BP is 140 over 75 normally when I'm in excellent shape, but even not being in the best of shape it doesn't usually go over 140 0ver 95 Because of my hereditary tachechardia this is a normal BP for me. When the doctors tried reducing it I got messed up. I learned not to try to control this, just learned to live with it. Now that I know what sets it off to go over 200 BPM and jump around, I don't need their pills anymore. I didn't get thi knowledge without a few setbacks in the past though.

If the Beta blockers work for you, keep taking them. Some people have good results while other people have side effects. I had side effects which I didn't like, I had to run a business, I did not like to be doped up. I also worked outside most of the winter and they lower your ability to burn fat, I got very cold and would wind up with bronchitis or pleurecy almost every winter I took them.

Originally posted by Bedlam

Originally posted by Ghost375
I imagine they are flawed studies....
first off, they are studies, not experiments.
Second, beta blockers DO lower heart rate and blood pressure. I don't see how your chance of getting a heart attack isn't lower if you lower your heart rate and blood pressure.

Well, on the face of it, it does sort of make sense. Say you have ischemic cardiac muscle. It's not totally without circulation, but there's a lot less bloodflow than you want. So, does it make sense that if it's contracting less, or more slowly, or less forcefully, that might use less oxygen when you don't have enough?

Now, *eventually*, YES, you want to improve circulation. Get the guy in the cath lab, a little angioplasty and a stent, and Bob's your uncle. But in the short term, it sort of makes sense that slowing down the rate and forcefulness of contractions might be a good idea, when you don't have sufficient circulation to parts of the heart muscle.

What is important to understand is the recent push to get these patients into the cath lab MUCH faster than in the past..the recent past even.

As little as 2-3 years ago (depending on where you lived)..a person having an active MI (heart attack) could sit in the ER easily for 20-30 minutes (at least) waiting to get to a cath lab. Those patients very well maybe have benefited from the beta blockers (hence the older studies showing benefits). Even if I told the ER a person was having an MI, I would have to stop in the ER, give a report to the RN who would give a report to the MD who wold order labs and EKG and than maybe call a cardiologist and see about getting a cath lab..the time would rapidly escalate.

What is happening now is a hard push to get those patients into the Cath lab within 10 or 12 minutes.

I can call a hospital now and say, this person is having an MI, he needs the cath lab. And I can bypass the ER altogether and literally take them straight to the Lab. this is huge. And one of the better things to come down the road in pre-hospital care in numerous years.

reply to post by toepick


I had acidosis from the Depakote used to treat the epilepsy. I had a hard time breathing all the time when on the epilepsy drugs. I also had lymphopathy, that isn't fun having all those lymph nodes swollen up and a swollen tongue.

Originally posted by toepick
I can call a hospital now and say, this person is having an MI, he needs the cath lab. And I can bypass the ER altogether and literally take them straight to the Lab. this is huge. And one of the better things to come down the road in pre-hospital care in numerous years.

I agree - but on the way there, a bit of lab work, some asa and plavix, and a pop of metoprolol with the nitro, morphine and O2 are all good things.

reply to post by rickymouse

...All the things you have are related you know. It has to do with the energy level and ability of the enzymes to work right.

Yes, it's all related - according to my research it begins with misfolded actin protein (a prion) making it's way from the gut through the body to the brain via the lymphatic system and bloodstream, or via the bloodstream if injected as with vaccines, as well as via the autonomic nervous system's gut-brain feedback pathway. Outside the nervous system(s) the cells first infected are fibroblasts - sometimes described as "stem cells" for tissue building and wound-healing - and the beginning of the disease process is often described as 'aberrant wound-healing' or 'tissue remodelling.' ...You are right, as the disease/prion moves through the body over decades, new strains develop on contact with other cells and tissues, including enzymes and most notably, bugger up cellular metabolism.

In my particular case, the original "condition" appears to have been inherited epigenetically and triggered at the age of five by an allergic reaction to penicillin. According to my doctors, I should be a lot sicker than I am given my age (60) - I credit my relative good health to using herbs and spices known to inhibit prion propagation.

Try eating sunflower seeds. ...Sounds like your thyroid may have been effected by those tests, did they use any radioactive dyes?

Too many sunflower seeds trigger herpes cold sores - the lysine as I recall - but I pig out them occasionally. My thyroid's fine so far, but the radioactive dyes and imaging in the angios caused the diabetes imho (turns out to be an impact well-known in medical circles) - and gawdknows what else. I've put a stop to all such testing, monitoring and treatments including invasive stuff, and absolutely minimize drug taking.

reply to post by Maxmars

Originally posted by Maxmars
reply to post by solargeddon

 

...it seems very reasonable to assume that as our personal biosphere has become awash with new chemical radicals and such, maybe this has created an change in our reaction to the molecular shape of the blocker itself..

The pharmaceutical industry engages in commerce... not medicine. That they wish to maximize the potential revenue stream on every product is reasonable... but I would have like to have seen why it took so many decades to realize that beta blockers were being prescribed as long-term therapy when the long-term benefits appear to show no indication that it is medically or scientifically justified.

Exactly - the goal is NOT to "cure disease" or increase individual longevity but rather to alleviate symptoms (without regard to long term impacts). In fact, meds like beta-blockers and metformin (for diabetes) actually just block one disease pathway while opening the (cellular) door to others - and thus, create "new" diseases (aka "side effects"). That's why so many people start with one or two meds and within a few years find themselves taking cocktails of 20 a day. ....At the same time and given the dearth of options, some of us bite the bullet, choose "quality of life" and take the bloody pills.

Originally posted by soficrow
reply to post by rickymouse

 

...All the things you have are related you know. It has to do with the energy level and ability of the enzymes to work right.

Yes, it's all related - according to my research it begins with misfolded actin protein (a prion) making it's way from the gut through the body to the brain via the lymphatic system and bloodstream, as well as via the autonomic nervous system's gut-brain feedback pathway. Outside the nervous system(s) the cells first infected are fibroblasts - sometimes described as "stem cells" for tissue building and wound-healing - and the beginning of the disease process is often described as 'aberrant wound-healing' or 'tissue remodelling.' ...You are right, as the disease/prion moves through the body over decades, new strains develop on contact with other cells and tissues, including enzymes and most notably, bugger up cellular metabolism.

In my particular case, the original "condition" appears to have been inherited epigenetically and triggered at the age of five by an allergic reaction to penicillin. According to my doctors, I should be a lot sicker than I am given my age (60) - I credit my relative good health to using herbs and spices known to inhibit prion propagation.

Try eating sunflower seeds. ...Sounds like your thyroid may have been effected by those tests, did they use any radioactive dyes?

Too many sunflower seeds trigger herpes cold sores - the lysine as I recall - but I pig out them occasionally. My thyroid's fine so far, but the radioactive dyes and imaging in the angios caused the diabetes imho (turns out to be an impact well-known in medical circles) - and gawdknows what else. I've put a stop to all such testing, monitoring and treatments including invasive stuff, and absolutely minimize drug taking.



I looked up some articles to try to understand what you were saying. Lets see if I got this right.

The misfolded proteins got into your system. Do you have an idea where the misfolded proteins may have come from? I have studied bread conditioners and their effect on protein folding, if our body recognizes the folds they are not too bad but with the new chemistry I feel that things are not recognized properly. I assume that a small cut in the intestines can also allow these to escape. Too much Aspirin may have been the cause in this case because it causes small areas to bleed. I am just guessing here, I remember when doctors pushed Aspirin in the sixties. I'm thinking that any protien that the body doesn't recognize could be a problem. We have started to eat a lot of food that we did not eat before, thanks to the Western diet. Getting accustomed to new food takes generations and also we are introducing chemistry into foods that is new, many changes in a generation. No wonder why we are sick.

I also studied Lysine in sunflower seeds, there is less than in meat. Lysine is a treatment for cold sores according to some articles I read, lowering the angiotensin in the body that the virus feeds on. You may need to check this out again, maybe you found something else that I did not see in my research, another reason why it aggravates cold sores. If you find something let me know.

I see you have studied this a lot, probably because it effects you personally. I do the same thing, study things that my family has problems with. I have friends who also have problems and have them asking me about things now. It takes a lot of research to find how to help them. I got the time, I also have to research possible side effects of modifying the diet. Another thing I run into is I tell them to do something for a week and they keep doing it for three to four weeks and it becomes another problem. They feel so much better that they think more is better, a very complex problem. Spices, herbs, and supplements are medicines. Foods are complex and we have evolved to need certain spices on certain foods. We have all evolved differently also, there is no panacea of medicine. I have researched cookbooks but cookbooks do not address genetic modification of food. The Potato has been modified many times. I do not know how this effects our bodies recognition of it. Too much change too quickly is a major problem nowadays.

Another problem is that after a few generations of a change the change becomes a problem to change back. Taking away the change can cause problems with perception. The testing done on food safety does not include testing for changes to thinking, only toxic effects above a certain threshold for the average serving size. Eating too many related foods can cause problems also. Eating foods without time tested companion foods can also cause problems.

Thanks for posting this. I take Metoprolol everyday for hypertension and tachycardia. I think after reading this I am going to ween myself off and try something natural. Reading this I had bells going off in my head. It explained alot for me. I wonder what my doctor will think of this when I go to see him next. I'll make sure I take a copy of the articl with me.

reply to post by rickymouse

Do you have an idea where the misfolded proteins may have come from?

Lots of places - including vaccines, medications, food, water, soil... If you're really interested you might start by brushing up on epigenetics as well as protein misfolding.

To put it simply, the data suggested that a single winter of overeating as a youngster could initiate a biological chain of events that would lead one's grandchildren to die decades earlier than their peers did.

...epigenetics is the study of changes in gene activity that do not involve alterations to the genetic code but still get passed down to at least one successive generation. These patterns of gene expression are governed by the cellular material — the epigenome — that sits on top of the genome, just outside it (hence the prefix epi-, which means above). It is these epigenetic "marks" that tell your genes to switch on or off, to speak loudly or whisper. It is through epigenetic marks that environmental factors like diet, stress and prenatal nutrition can make an imprint on genes that is passed from one generation to the next.

Proteins are the main molecular machines in our bodies. They perform a wide range of functions, from digesting and processing nutrients, converting energy and aiding cell structure to transmitting signals in cells and the whole body. In order to perform these highly specific functions, proteins have to adopt a well-defined, three-dimensional structure. Remarkably, in most cases they find this structure unaided once they have been formed out of their individual building blocks, amino acids, as a long chain molecule in the cell.

However, the process of protein folding can also go wrong, which means the proteins affected are no longer able to perform their function. In some cases, this can even have much more serious consequences if thesemisfolded proteins clump and trigger neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimer's or Parkinson's disease.

...Under some conditions proteins will not fold into their biochemically functional forms [13] . Temperatures above or below the range that cells tend to live in will cause thermally unstable proteins to unfold or "denature" (this is why boiling makes an egg white turn opaque). High concentrations of solutes, extremes of pH, mechanical forces, and the presence of chemical denaturants can do the same.

...Several external factors such as temperature, external fields (electric, magnetic),[19] molecular crowding,[20] limitation of space could have a big influence on the folding of proteins.[21] Modification of the local minima by external factors can also induce modifications of the folding trajectory.

That's fine. Throw your pills away. Next time you convert to WAP/MAT, A. Fib/ A. Flutter with RVR, or go into a sustained PSVT you can pop some sunflower seeds and magnesium and wash it down with a big glass of milk. I'm sure everything will be just fine. I mean they are at therapeutic doses, right? Or you could just vagal down. Better yet, teach your family how to do carotid massages and you will have hours of entertainment and bonding.

And when you land in the ER with that big MI from sucking down fatty cow meat at therapeutic levels, before you pass out be sure to tell the doc that you don't need no stinkin betablocker, your heart rate will be just fine. Hell, you've survived this long so your heart (which is becoming more damaged every second!) can take it. Just sign a DNR at the front desk.

Beta blockers do work for what they are intended for, at their intended dosages. I see it ever day at work. But what I'm seeing mostly on this thread right now is natural selection in action.

reply to post by Flux8

I'm with you there. I'll keep mine until I get the official from my GP, and heart Dr.

The BP pills, lipitor and trilipix cause me alot of fatigue, but I still go out and push myself running and working out to compensate and I feel great.

Originally posted by NavyDoc
As posted above by two people who actually read the full articles, Beta Blockers DID help and were proven to do so but new studies have found that they are not effective in light of new therapies such as reperfusion therapies.

Also, note that the disease studied is ischemic cardiac disease and the data still supports rate limitation with beta blockade in outflow obstruction and acute, rate associated ischemia.

No big conspiracy here, just medicine moving along with the times.

not to derail the thread but how do you feel about Statins?

i quit taking them because frankly, i don't trust the research nor the ill informed MD's we have to choose from these days. they made me forget things like crazy and i developed a lot of aches and pains in my body from them. stopped taking them and within a few weeks the pains went away and my memory issues lessened greatly.

if this is just a replacement therapymedication with less side effect, then i suppose it's a good thing eh.

P.S. if you feel like replying, please do it via PM, i really don't wish to derail this thread. thanks

Originally posted by LittleBlackEagle

Originally posted by NavyDoc
As posted above by two people who actually read the full articles, Beta Blockers DID help and were proven to do so but new studies have found that they are not effective in light of new therapies such as reperfusion therapies.

Also, note that the disease studied is ischemic cardiac disease and the data still supports rate limitation with beta blockade in outflow obstruction and acute, rate associated ischemia.

No big conspiracy here, just medicine moving along with the times.

not to derail the thread but how do you feel about Statins?

i quit taking them because frankly, i don't trust the research nor the ill informed MD's we have to choose from these days. they made me forget things like crazy and i developed a lot of aches and pains in my body from them. stopped taking them and within a few weeks the pains went away and my memory issues lessened greatly.

if this is just a replacement therapy\medication with less side effect, then i suppose it's a good thing eh.

I know you're not asking me but I think I've read that statins reduce CoQ10 which depletes as you age anyway and it's one of the things it depletes that you really need. the longer you can keep levels of things like CoQ10 up, they healthier you should be there are a lot of things working against all that and drugs are one of them. drugs age you. the less you take the better.