Moon mystery finally solved!!!!, page 1

I admit it, I was wrong.
I have started several threads and posted in others concerning changes in the Moon's appearance. It began about two years ago when I saw the Moon lit from the bottom, as I searched the web for answers it was clear there were thousands of other people who had the same question.
A lot of folks who know more than I do about astronomy made some pretty good points as they argued against any possible changes in the Moon's orbit. The only one I had a problem with was "if something was wrong it would be on every astronomy blog and news site" since I was pretty sure there was a gag order or cover up. Once again, I was wrong.
As I studied astronomy, made models of the solar system and visited the library and book stores, it became more difficult to explain the Moon being lit from below without drastic changes in the entire Sun, Earth, Moon system. The one hole I found was the lack of data and study on the daily position of Lunar phase and features. It seems our only instruments were Lunar laser ranging reflectors placed during the Apollo program, some have been added since, but they still need to calibrate them. We know how far away the Moon is but if it rotates 5 degrees it would be difficult to measure.
No, it turns out the Moon is just fine, it's THE EARTH that's FUBAR!!!!
Earthshine is the "ghostly" reflection of sunlight from the Earth to the Moon, it causes the Moon phase to be lit from the bottom just like I saw two years ago. I found out about that phenomenon early on but dismissed it as it didn't match the intensity of the reflected light as I saw it, also, it didn't happen as frequently as what I was observing. Once again, I was wrong, it WAS Earthshine, but it was Earthshine on steroids.
I found part of the answer on top of a mountain in Hawaii, there is a telescope there placed by the NOAA (yes, NOAA not NASA) to study Earthshine. The NOAA runs the program because it is Earth's reflective properties that are lighting up the Moon like a Budweiser sign in a tavern window. Here is the link to that site.........
earthshine.thejll.com...
They are studying Earthshine because it is an indicator of climate change, as Earth's surface changes so does it's reflective properties. Saltwater has different properties than fresh water, sand has different properties than grass etc. Cloud cover, ocean currents, ice melt and almost every other component have a dramatic effect on Earth's albedo aka. bond albedo.
There you have it,
1. The Moon hasn't changed position but an increase in reflected solar radiation from Earth WILL change it pretty quickly, nobody knows what this means or how to stop it.
2. DRAMATIC changes in and on the surface of the Earth have increased the reflective properties of the surface to such an extent it has changed the appearance of the Moon from an Earth based observers perspective. Nothing like this has happened on this scale in recorded history.
3. The speed of these changes far outweighs our ability to understand and find solutions to the problem. This freight train is heading swiftly down the track.
I don't like to admit when I'm wrong, but I will NEVER avoid doing so when appropriate. Unlike the initial mystery where it was mostly grey area this one is black and white, the proof is there, the research is ongoing and the solution is nowhere in sight. Prepare for severe weather conditions.

reply to post by Trublbrwing

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I was actually beginning to wonder what had happened to you, since I hadn't seen you post a "Something's wrong with the Moon!!!" thread in quite a while. I'm glad to see you were spending time furthering your education and getting to the facts behind the observations. I wish everyone would do that.
The environmental effect, I think, is interesting enough of a phenomenon to research.

I just have one question. Now that you've come to your senses, who's going to be looking out to make sure the Moon doesn't start falling from the sky?
Maybe you should take applications and start scheduling interviews.

reply to post by Trublbrwing

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You should not make ANY conclusions about the Earth's climate based on Earthshine, that is ridiculous, and is widely realized by NASA and several others as having been debunked.

CERES data is the only accepted measurements for global albedo.

You are using something that is simple, such as the reflection of the moon, and an old paper that has been long debunked, to make a case for climate change. The actual data shows a DECREASE in albedo over the last few years, which is completely contradictory to what you are saying "has never happened in recorded history", That's a bold claim, do you have proof of this? Can you also show anything conclusive about albedo in relation to climate change?

Here's real data for those who are interested:

Source

So your thread is all because you thought something was wrong with the moon (just because you didn't understand it or never observed it) and now you understand it enough to say that it shows dramatic changes to the climate here on Earth?

Not what I would consider the best application of critical thinking.

~Namaste

reply to post by Trublbrwing

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DRAMATIC changes in and on the surface of the Earth have increased the reflective properties of the surface to such an extent it has changed the appearance of the Moon from an Earth based observers perspective. Nothing like this has happened on this scale in recorded history.

No. The appearance of the Moon has not changed, not that you would notice with the naked eye anyway and changes to Earth's albedo certainly do not cause a "sideways" Moon.

reply to post by Phage

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Unless he's a few billion years old.

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Trublbrwing, is there a published source for your conclusions, or did you read the blog you linked to and detect fear in their writing?

Originally posted by SonOfTheLawOfOne
reply to post by Trublbrwing

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You should not make ANY conclusions about the Earth's climate based on Earthshine, that is ridiculous, and is widely realized by NASA and several others as having been debunked.

CERES data is the only accepted measurements for global albedo.

You are using something that is simple, such as the reflection of the moon, and an old paper that has been long debunked, to make a case for climate change. The actual data shows a DECREASE in albedo over the last few years, which is completely contradictory to what you are saying "has never happened in recorded history", That's a bold claim, do you have proof of this? Can you also show anything conclusive about albedo in relation to climate change?

Here's real data for those who are interested:

Source

So your thread is all because you thought something was wrong with the moon (just because you didn't understand it or never observed it) and now you understand it enough to say that it shows dramatic changes to the climate here on Earth?

Not what I would consider the best application of critical thinking.

~Namaste

edit on 6-11-2012 by SonOfTheLawOfOne because: (no reason given)

Debunked? Really?
Are you talking about the same NASA and CERES who are in this report?
www.lpi.usra.edu...
The title is "Lunar Observations Of Changes In Earth's Albedo"
Comes from NASA JPL for a recent conference on the matter.

And which paper that was "long ago debunked" are you talking about? I posted a link to a blog with information from TODAY which is full of current data.

As for the Moon comment all you are doing is showing you ignorance, I was correct about the change in the Moon's appearance, I was wrong about what was causing it.
I could post a hundred documents but I'm not wasting my time arguing with you, everything in your post is malicious nonsense.

Originally posted by dainoyfb
Since there are observatories that study and record earthshine is there not data showing that earthshine is happening at unprecedented levels and frequency or is this a personal observation of yours? I find this data conspicuously missing from your post.

edit on 6-11-2012 by dainoyfb because: of typos.

There are many, I will post a couple links but a simple google search will provide more than enough evidence.
Also, the link provided in the OP contains current information that should be more than sufficient to verify the problem.
211.144.68.84:9998...
www.lpi.usra.edu...
nvlpubs.nist.gov...

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by Trublbrwing

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DRAMATIC changes in and on the surface of the Earth have increased the reflective properties of the surface to such an extent it has changed the appearance of the Moon from an Earth based observers perspective. Nothing like this has happened on this scale in recorded history.

No. The appearance of the Moon has not changed, not that you would notice with the naked eye anyway and changes to Earth's albedo certainly do not cause a "sideways" Moon.

Changes in Earth's albedo are increasing the level of reflected solar energy aka Earthshine, this does not cause a "sideways" Moon (whatever that is) it causes the Moon to appear lit from the bottom.
These changes can easily be seen with the naked eye.
Why is that so difficult to understand?

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by Phage

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Unless he's a few billion years old.

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Trublbrwing, is there a published source for your conclusions, or did you read the blog you linked to and detect fear in their writing?

I have posted several sources in response to comments by other members within this thread, it's a one pager so they should be easy to find. In addition a simple google search for "earthshine and bond albedo" or "earth albedo and lunar surface" should be sufficient.
I detected no "fear" in any post on the blog I linked to, it's a list of activities and data by the people who set up and use the telescope in Hawaii. As far as unbiased information it doesn't get any better than that, nobody on that site is looking for page hits or free publicity, it's a scientific forum.
I have responded to your post as a courtesy, in the future any insulting comments will be ignored and looked upon as evidence of your inability to properly discuss the issue.

reply to post by Trublbrwing

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Thank you, I'll check out what you've posted.
Also, I replied to your U2U. I hope you find that you're not quite interpreting my responses as I intended them.

reply to post by CLPrime

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Well I guess we can just move on to saying that Phobos will somehow fall out of Mars's orbit and fly to us. If any moon's gonna do it, it's that one. but i do say our Earth will out last our habitation of it.

reply to post by Trublbrwing

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So the moon mystery is all figured out?

How about the moon riddle?

Remember what happened in 1869?

According to an article in Mechanix Illustrated, June, 1964 Issue, (pg. 82)

Well, read the actual article.



So, the reflection "Mystery" you speak of may be explained, but how about the "Riddle"?

reply to post by Trublbrwing

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Changes in Earth's albedo are increasing the level of reflected solar energy aka Earthshine, this does not cause a "sideways" Moon (whatever that is) it causes the Moon to appear lit from the bottom.

That is what I meant by "sideways". You seem to think that there is something unsual about the bright part of the Moon being on the "bottom".

It is not Earthshine which causes the Moon to appear to be lit from the bottom. It is sunlight and the time of year which causes this. Since one entire hemisphere of the Moon is always facing Earth, earthshine affects that entire hemisphere. When part of that hemisphere is lit by the Sun the reflected sunlight overwhelms earthshine.

If you believe what NASA is telling you...... then get a load of this.....
www.youtube.com...
OR this
www.youtube.com...

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