Renegade Jewish Settlers

So technically if I went to Israel to the west bank , claimed I was jewish I could steal some land and build myself a huge property !

Why then havent other people done this ?

oh thats rights because its morally wrong to steal

reply to post by dontreally

Oh, ok. So no Jewish state period then, not even for the 3.5 million sephardic Jews. And even though these Jews are indigenous to the region, and everywhere they are 'dhimmis' subject to discriminatory practices, still, they cannot call any place home.

Regarding jews being "indigenous to that region", we know that the Jews themselves took over that land after decimating the original indigenous people...the Canaanites. Or does history only begin only after the Jewish conquest of that land?

Migrations, settlement and displacement were always a part of human history. The native Americans, the Canadian Inuits, the Australian aborigines, the Mauris of New Zealand etc. all became accustomed to living alongside those who colonized and took over their lands. So, I don't buy the argument that the Jews are somehow a special bunch.

The Palestinians did not appear out of thin air to take over that land before Israel was formed in 1948. They are very much indigenous to that region.

Originally posted by dontreally
Ok, first of all, Judea and Samaria, aka west bank, is of course an ancient Jewish area. It's a fact of history. No single area of Palestine is more historically Jewish than Judea, i.e. the eastern Jerusalem area and it's suburbs.

That's a basic fact of archeology. Pretty much indisputable.

So if your argument is gonna rest on an attack on the 'supposed' Jewish historicity of Judea, you are on very unstable ground.


With your logic, we should allow the Native Americans to take over pretty much most of the Americas.

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by eNumbra

 

Out of curiosity, If what's left of the Native American tribes in America began taking their land back; how would you feel?

How would you feel? Why does your sense of justice have a time limit?

All I'm saying is, those Jews are mostly religious. They are not nearly as radical as the terrorists in Gaza and the west bank (like Al quds brigade) who try to kill innocent civilians.

Do they use force? Are they nice? I wouldn't be surprised. They have a lot of anger for the Arabs. In their minds, Palestinians are a made-up idea. They are Arabs. And Arabs control 98% of the middle East/North Africa. The original palestinian mandate provided a homeland for the Arabs of Palestine in Jordan. Now these Arabs want the 'westbank' too?? It's frustrating for them. They feel they're being conned into accepting smaller and smaller plots of land.

If there is one, unrecognized injustice, it is the exodus of 800,000 sephardic Jews from Arab lands between 1948 and 1967. 50 billion dollars worth of property were pilfered from them by Arab governments. At that time, Jews were clamoring for retribution. For a people exchange similar to what went on between the Greek/Turkish cypriots or the muslims/Hindus of Pakistan and India. But nothing has happened. These Jews have still go unrecompensed. And nobody cares or even knows! Think of the outrage of that.

Arabs are not the only peoples of the middle east/north africa. They are not entitled to every piece of land. Jews - sephardic Jews, in particular (since they are indigenous to the region), Kurds, Berbs, have been slighted far worse and far longer than anything that has been done to the Palestinian Arabs. But, unfortunately, oil politics manages to wield a great deal of political authority. Hence, your viewpoints.

Strange. You forget the thousands of Bedouin Arabs who were killed or displaced in the massacres which took place in 1948 and choose to remember the displaced Jews who are now breathing down on every Palestinian. Bedouins have lived on the land for decades, so i guess, they also have a right to the land.

Incredible footage from Jerusalem in 1896 | Jews, Muslims, Christians living under the Ottomans

reply to post by SOLIDSNAKE101


That's very interesting footage.

reply to post by jmdewey60

if it ever existed in the first place.

If it ever existed in the first place...

So forget the histories of Josephus, Philo, Tacitus, Seneca, Cicero, etc, all of which mention "judea" - which you nefariously try to wipe out from the annals of history.

If you were even remotely sincere, you wouldn't have mentioned that. You may oppose the modern Jewish state, but to go so far as to flat out lie, and say Judea never existed, and that Jews never lived in that part of the world - lies that circulate through an Arab world intoxicated by Nazi era propaganda, is disgusting.

There were Judea and Samaria provinces as part of the Persian, and Greek, and then Roman rules.

You've never heard of the Hasmonean dynasty? It's history. Look it up. The Jews revolted against the Selucid Greeks, reestablishing the Jewish kingdom of old, which lasted up until the time of the Roman incursions into the area. Coins, Scrolls (such as he dead sea scrolls) date to this time period, circa 150 BCE.

Or is this "myth" too? If this is myth, whats to stop us from calling everything in the ancient past myth? Maybe the Romans were myths too?

The Bible couldn't be anymore literal in it's political record of the kingdom of Israel. To turn what is patent fact, and a record, into a myth no different from the battles between pagan gods, is nonsense.

Originally posted by eNumbra

Originally posted by dontreally
Ok, first of all, Judea and Samaria, aka west bank, is of course an ancient Jewish area. It's a fact of history. No single area of Palestine is more historically Jewish than Judea, i.e. the eastern Jerusalem area and it's suburbs.

That's a basic fact of archeology. Pretty much indisputable.

Out of curiosity, If what's left of the Native American tribes in America began taking their land back; how would you feel?

Or how about giving back the southwest to Mexico that we took in a war?

reply to post by eNumbra


Regardless of that fact, Israel was set up(legally or no) with borders and they have been expanding ever since.

Israel has been expanding because they have attacked her, she fought back and as in any war the spoils go to the victors. And every since then those who lost in that 3 day war have cried about the land they lost. How much of that land has Israel given back? Israel should of kicked butt untill thoses who attacked her lost everything they had.

Originally posted by dontreally
Ok, first of all, Judea and Samaria, aka west bank, is of course an ancient Jewish area. It's a fact of history. No single area of Palestine is more historically Jewish than Judea, i.e. the eastern Jerusalem area and it's suburbs.

That's a basic fact of archeology. Pretty much indisputable.

So if your argument is gonna rest on an attack on the 'supposed' Jewish historicity of Judea, you are on very unstable ground.

Other than that, this is a tricky area indeed.

I'm rather disgusted however with the comparisons between the gun wielding settlers - who carry guns for self defense - with the terrorists in Gaza who indoctrinate their children into the most irrational and virulent anti-semitic propaganda.

They are two very different types of people.

Well then, since were going on facts of history we should find out who the Hebrews of the bible really were. They certainly were NOT the folks from eastern Europe who converted to Judaism and today call themselves Jews who now occupy Palestine. Who are these "Jews" especially since there were no such thing called "Jews" in biblical times...where did the word come from, certainly NOT Hebrews?? The Hebrews who claim ancestry of Abraham are the Ethiopian Hebrews who still practice othordox Judaism and claim to have the ark of the covenant which has been well researched by Graham Hancock among others...I digress. So a man defending his home from a robber in America is a hero and a patriot but a man defending his entire country from invaders in Palestine is a terrorist...very interesting this is exactly what the English settlers thought of the NATIVE Americans, glad to see that attitude is alive and well, the bane of human existence...

reply to post by TheMaverick


Good post, I really enjoy the Vice Guide to Travel video's.

In fairness, there are two sides to the story and you should post both to give the reader/viewer enough information to form their own opinions.

The illegal settlers are way out of line but the Palestinians aren't doing themselves any favors either...



The B.S. is thick coming from both sides. From the same source as the illegal Jewish settlements in the OP...

reply to post by dontreally

. . . go so far as to flat out lie, and say Judea never existed . . .

Huh . . no kidding?!
What do you call what you did in your post, where you say that I deny Judea existed, then quote me saying it did?
I hope this gives readers a good indication of how to assess any posts you make.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I was referring to you're even making that comment. When you say "if it ever existed in the first place", you're taking that idea as a possibility, or plausible. This is an ideas that actually circulates in the Arab world. And you passed it off here as if it wasn't something offensive.

reply to post by dontreally

When you say "if it ever existed in the first place", you're taking that idea as a possibility, or plausible.

Like you said, there is history that describes a place which was known by a particular name. There were even people who have a term to describe them that is derived from the name of that geographic location.
That is a long ways from the mythology that was created to explain how the place got that name.
What you seem to invoking is the idea that there was this great kingdom founded by a national hero that established a land free of people other than from his own tribe and that the strength of his reputation perpetuated this state to this day. Well it doesn't, instead we have a place called Palestine, that has been called that since 132 AD.

reply to post by jmdewey60


That you keep getting stars for your ignorant posts speaks volumes about the type of people who post here.

That is a long ways from the mythology that was created to explain how the place got that name.

What is mythological about it?

12 twelve tribes who conquered the land of Canaan formed a 'confederation' called Israel. This confederation was based upon a belief system derived from some extraordinary experience it had in it's ancient past (the Exodus was already 350-400 years in the past when Israel was founded). What's mythological about this?

One tribe derived from a forefather named "judah", another from "reuben", another from "ephraim", and so on.

You just keep inventing reasons for why you have to oppose Israel.

What you seem to invoking is the idea that there was this great kingdom founded by a national hero

You know George Washington? Did he exist, or is he a 'myth' because his exploits tend to be exaggerated?

that established a land free of people other than from his own tribe and that the strength of his reputation perpetuated this state to this day.

You have a horrid knowledge of the Bible.

First, they had been living in Israel some 350-400 years after Joshua conquered it. Second, David didn't establish the kingdom. Saul did. David, however, was the one to unify the kingdom for 32 years, until his son Solomon.

You really don't know very much about history. Many times the 'founder' of the kingdom is glorified and seemed to embody the very ideas that the nation was built upon.

Now, according to tradition, David was a very pious and God fearing King. He apparently took his religion very seriously - much of the book of Psalms, beautiful poems, were written by his hand.

Well it doesn't, instead we have a place called Palestine, that has been called that since 132 AD.

It's actually 135 AD, after the Jews lost to the forces of Hadrian. Who then razed some 600 villages, killed thousands and exiled millions. And who called the land Palestine since "132 AD"?? Almost all people called it the holy land. Not Palestine. Jews called it Israel, Christians, the "holy land". The term Palestine was resurrected by the Ottomans.

Again, learn your history.

Originally posted by Drunkenparrot
reply to post by TheMaverick

 

Good post, I really enjoy the Vice Guide to Travel video's.

In fairness, there are two sides to the story and you should post both to give the reader/viewer enough information to form their own opinions.

The illegal settlers are way out of line but the Palestinians aren't doing themselves any favors either...

The B.S. is thick coming from both sides. From the same source as the illegal Jewish settlements in the OP...

What choice do Palestinians have when hundreds of their kids get shipped to prisons for trying to resist the Israeli troops, tanks and settlers? What choice do they have when they have to suffer at the hands of settlers?

We should all know by now that the videos that you are showing are just the same as the indoctrination of Palestinian children. We don't see normal people who try to live a life peacefully but savage men who will murder anyone for freedom.

reply to post by RimDaas


So this:



Is somehow akin to Settlers who annoy Palestinians by holding guns, speaking rudely, and cutting down farms??

As annoying as the latter can be, it in no way approximates the insanity of dressing up children in suicide bomber outfits.

If these people cared for peace, they wouldn't do that.

reply to post by dontreally

12 twelve tribes who conquered the land of Canaan formed a 'confederation' called Israel.

So it means the Israelites are NOT indigenous to that land as you had claimed earlier.
I had brought this up earlier, but you seemed to have missed it.

History does not begin with the Israelites conquest of that land. So people who bring up history regarding that land, should go back all the way to when the land was occupied by another people. If Israelites took over the land from somebody else, then one cant say Israel belongs exclusively to the Jews.

Therefore the claim that the land belongs to the jews because they lived there 2000 years ago is bogus.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Aye... You love these games...

I'm too tired for this crap.

BTW, you said earlier that the Palestinians were 'indigenous' to the land. Which is it? Can someone be 'indigenous', or does indigenous not exist???

If a language, culture, religion, formed out of one land, and this one land symbolized everything about you as an individual - as Israel does for the Jew - then I'd say the term 'indigenous' very much applies.

Just as French are associated with France. English with the British Isles, Chinese with China.

reply to post by dontreally


Your only argument for the state of Israel in the middle east is that Jews happened to have a kingdom there a long time ago. But like you acknowledged, the ancestors of modern day Jews took that land from somebody else. This alone renders invalid the very idea that the land belonged "originally" to the jews.

Like I said in an earlier post....
Migrations, settlement and displacement were always a part of human history. Whether for good or bad, the jews too were subject to this. Bringing up 2500 year old history to justify the modern jewish state is a rather silly argument.

Just as French are associated with France. English with the British Isles, Chinese with China.

.... and the Palestinian Arabs with that land they were living on before the UN made an "Israel" out of that land.