Originally posted by liejunkie01
I see the UFO worshipers have came out in droves to belittle the OP.

Each and everyone of you are hilarious. You say he has no proof, but you come in here with no proof to back up your claims.

I am sure that 60+ year old hearsay and conjecture is still just that, hearsay and conjecture.

There is not one solid piece of evidence to back up any of your claims.

People in the 40's were ignorant to technology. They had outhouses and some were still without electricity. Mainly the folks in the country, which is where this incident happened.

They wouldn't know a top secret military project if it bit them in the a$$.

Does the military tell us what is going on these days? Hell no, we get the run around just like . they git in the 40's.

edit on 6-11-2012 by liejunkie01 because: (no reason given)

Murderers have been convicted on much less circumstantial evidence. But this is ufology so the burden of proof rests on the believers, as biased as the subject is.

Your OP, made me LOL so bad, you are saying it is a weather balloon, because you think one author is correct, sorry but even the military released in the news it was a UFO, then a week later it all changed.

So to say I disagree with what you say

Originally posted by Jchristopher5
I saw this post and I was hoping that it was from you. No, you have explained nothing about the Roswell mystery. You have, as usual, provided no evidence only your tired brand of skepticism.

Let me go through this again.

1. Our government released press that a flying disk had been captured. According to the man in the center of the press release, Lt. Haut, he believed that it was extraterrestrial. He saw 4' bodies with large heads. He put this in a death bed testimony. Also, the local mortician, Glenn Dennis, said he was asked for child's caskets, from the base.

All of this proves that something unusual crashed, piloted by small beings.

2. Marcel and others testified that the wreckage was of a material unknown to him. Memory metals and rigid Ibeams with strange hieroglyphics. It was seen by his son, and by a couple of dozen others. This was clearly NOT a weather balloon or anything of the sort. In your heart, you know marcel would not have mistaken this material for a balloon. That is silly.

3. The memo held by Ramey is the debris photo is very telling. While it is impossible to make all of it out, phrases like "aviators of the disk" and "balloon PR" jump off the page.

4. The silly Mogel cover, and the later "case closed" on the alien bodies is over the top silliness by the military and government. These dummies were dropped in the 1950s, not in 1947, and this explains what people saw? Wow, I have some land for you if you buy that.


I am not buying the silliness that you are posting here "The Shreck". Roswell remains unexplained, but clearly leans to the ET/ED hypothesis.

Well put, any body that changes their story THREE times or gives an explanation THREE times is at it and out to deceive, that is a fact and proven by the USAF intelligences offering ,eh i mean CHANGING their stories three times.To simply dismiss witnesses , to dismiss the fact that the PAB at the time of this incident had no real plans on how to deal with UFO sightings never mind one actually crashing, they reported like it was, they acted out of not knowing better,they had no real contigancy plans in place, there was no briefing or debunking protocols to staff about UFOs at that time,no blue book debunking personal who could get in there quick to orchestrate an effective cover up, in short the FIRST report given to the press was one of innocence , truthfulness and one of awe at what had happened or "lets tell the world about this, this needs telling"

.Then of-course the cover began and the USAF intelligence began what was to be the start of a systematic agenda of cover ups and debunking tactics, this is the reason that their primary cover up balloon nonsense failed and was transparent, the USAF was in its PRIMARY stage of the debunking and cover up agendas, they got it wrong THREE times are we really being asked to not only accept but believe known and proven LIARS.

It may suit some to go down this rather abstruse and dangerous road of putting your trust in a known liar but not for me, they lied ,they eventually got better at, lying with various UFO investigatory fronts such as "blue book" and the "Condon" report but not completely or as they thought that is until the work of the late Dr James E MacDonald proves in his systematic dismantling of the transparent USAF force fit debunking explanations and his paper named ;"science in default ;30 years of inadequate scientific investigation's in to UFOs";

Why the need for force fit debunking explanations ,why say that UFOs hold no threat to national security when in reality objects were entering and leaving restricted air space at WILL , is that not a real cause for concern, is that not breaching all protocols of national security and most of all is that not a contradiction and once again a LIE we have the liars lying again. Why the need to come out in the FIRST place with such a statement of we have a saucer ,it is not from this world, why attract the mother of all attractions to your self with such a statement if you had NOTHING to hide in the first place, it just does not add up.

Sceptics are all very well and needed sometimes but when they continually try to force fit their debunking strategies based on speculations based on information ect not from witnesses directly involved but from the official sources of their versions of events forgive me if i reject it , how may lies does it take to produce a truth, none in my book,how many changes of events does it take to make one start to perceive that it reeks of desperation a failed attempt at covering up something so profound ,so earth shattering to all known perceptions of ourselves and our part in it , so profound that if it was officially admit that this was indeed a ET intelligence then it would be such a game changer that a very nervous and guilt ridden attempt ,(three times),at a cover up would naturally follow.

The first reported story emanating from Roswell was the truth, that to me after the above deductions is the more believable and i am no liar i may add, when Roswell is looked at and perceived in a Sherlock Homes perception the Dr Watson in all us can be seen, elementary my dear Watson springs to mind,

Originally posted by schuyler
Maybe, but if your heroes are the duplicitous Philip Klass and even more so, Kal Korff, you're delusional. Did you know Kal Korff is a Colonel in a secret Israeli intelligence service, or that he has an imaginary girlfriend? Next you'll be telling me Billy Meier really did go back in time to meet the dinosaurs.

KAL KORFF????? Seriously????

The problem with replies such as yours where sources are maligned because you have a mindset and no one will knock you off it is that ignorance seems to reign. That's why the old saying "Don't kill the messenger" was created. So you don't like Klass or Korff. You forgot to mention Pflock. Let's put the shoe on the other foot. What have you and every other naysayer on this forum done to find out the truth about the so-called Roswell Incident? Whether you dislike the researchers for whatever reason rocks your boat, it isn't the personality you should question, it should be the results of their research. They talked to the original witnesses. They dug through tons and tons of documents. The research resulted in pointing out that you cannot trust 30+ memories. That some of the participants had nothing factual to contribute and, instead, confabulated to bask in the new-found fame.

Do you really enjoy seeing the crocodile tears emitted by big-time-liar Frankie Rowe? Do you really buy Marcel Junior's I-beam bs? Do you really buy Glenn Dennis bs? Do you know that certain personnel were demoted from their jobs for opening their big mouths (Haut and...)? Would you rather accept Friedman's/Berliner's, Randle's/Schmitt's and others' lies and misrepresentations and withholding important data, or the research results of people you don't like because of something they wrote that you didn't like because your mind was made up and you didn't need the facts?

Why don't you start a thread pointing out where Klass, Korff (and Pflock) erred in their books? I quoted Klass because I accept what he came up with which the other two also came up with slight variations that do not cancel each other. Take a stand and stop whining. All of you!

Originally posted by fleabit
There are just too many anomalies surrounding Roswell to credit a weather balloon as the actual crash victim, or even secret bomb-detecting microphones. From a large amount of air traffic arriving in and leaving the airbase after the event, from and to the most important bases in the U.S., to Twining cancelling a trip to make an emergency visit to new Mexico on July 17th, to the reports of truck-fulls of debris, to the rancher being held for a week by the military, and it just goes on and on. Weirdness at the radio station and calls from the military, people receiving items.. like fridges and ovens and other large appliances, the children of the rancher talking about having to take cattle over a mile around out of the way to avoid the debris, etc. et al.

Regardless OP, you seem in a poor position to be making such a definitive stand on a case you admit to having not bothered to study on your own, only relying on books or reports written by people with an obvious bias. I however, made a decision by studying all the data, critics and witnesses alike, before I made a decision. You claim to be a brilliant mind, but unfortunately, you just come across as your typical categorically decisive debunker. Facts? Who needs those huh? Just dismiss everything you don't believe, and embrace all that in your mind disproves it.

Just another debunker with a lot of opinionated ideas.

I am sure that you have come to your opinions based on what others have written. I don't think you have done any in-depth research. Additionally, by your comments you have accepted the popular author's books which are as devoid of factual details preferring to attract gullible readers that accept wide-eyed without questioning. The Phoenix "Lights" are a similar argument to the Roswell myth. Even though there is insurmountable evidence proving that what was seen in the vicinity of Phoenix, NOT OVER PHOENIX!, were flares. Yet, even with the evidence you still have a majority that believe it was UFOs. No one wants the truth. It doesn't sell.

What I read in your opening comments is fantasy. None of it is true and if your life depended on it you couldn't come up with the necessary evidence to prove me wrong.

So to come to my POV I relied on the work of others just as humanity has to rely on the work of scientists to find cures, etc. When was the last time you or anyone on this forum tried to find a cure for anything? It's always those dedicated to finding things out that come up with results. You can accept or pooh pooh what they present. I'm not a researcher but if I wanted to become one Klass and Pflock would be my models and I would also confer with Korff!

I am brilliant! Because I'm not a gullible believer and I don't rely on fantasies to satisfy my need for knowledge. I accept what makes sense to me especially when it's presented so that it is unquestionable. No UFO crashed near Roswell nor anywhere on earth. There is no evidence for a crash anywhere. You want to accept the words of charlatans, be my guest.

Originally posted by nightmare_david
This is officially my favorite thread on ATS.

This proves everything I've ever said about you:

1.) You have no clue what you're talking about in any subject in ufology

2.) Every thread you create is purposely made just to annoy others

3.) You have a belief system even though you say you don't

4.) You are the very definition of an internet troll

Among many other things....This thread should make it more than clear to the admins of ATS that you're not here for any real kind of intelligent conversation. Only to incite flamewars and throw out insults or the occasional wishing for the death of some ufologist you hate.

This proves everything I've ever said about you:

You think that because you make a self-serving comment that it is important. You ought to become a lawyer so that you could can represent yourself ("A lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client".).

1. Ignorance must be blisss for you.
2. If I annoyed you, goal achieved.
3. Prove it, Mr Know it all.
4. Your dictionary suffers from a lack of an author.

Why don't you put your money in your big mouth and complain about my threads to the admins of ATS? I'd love to read their reply to you, whiner. Time to change your soiled diapers.

Originally posted by liejunkie01
I see the UFO worshipers have came out in droves to belittle the OP.

Each and everyone of you are hilarious. You say he has no proof, but you come in here with no proof to back up your claims.

I am sure that 60+ year old hearsay and conjecture is still just that, hearsay and conjecture.

There is not one solid piece of evidence to back up any of your claims.

People in the 40's were ignorant to technology. They had outhouses and some were still without electricity. Mainly the folks in the country, which is where this incident happened.

They wouldn't know a top secret military project if it bit them in the a$$.

Does the military tell us what is going on these days? Hell no, we get the run around just like they git in the 40's.

edit on 6-11-2012 by liejunkie01 because: (no reason given)

Bravo!

You'd think that if these critics knew so much in favor of a crashed UFO that they would come back with their "Here's why you're wrong" and use a convincing argument. But they don't because they're not doubters, they're gullible believers. All of this Roswell brouhaha started with an author who claims and wants everyone to believe, still, that he is a Nuclear Physicist even though he worked in the field for 14 years, for 5 different companies and was laid off in 1971! Like the other popular authors he found it necessary to withhold important information that if included would not have had the impact his altered books did. And these are the people that the gullible hold up as their sources for the truth. Exposed liars!

One achievement by Pflock was showing that Marcel's memory was unreliable and became Marcel became convinced by his new found fame that lying was preferable to what he really experienced. He was taken advantage of by the scumbag authors.

What is being ignored by the young, living in peaceful times, is the state of tension existing between the U.S. and the Russia. How an event such as Roswell could have result in some kind of serious confrontation that could have resulted in WWIII and all because a serious secret project was almost compromised. Eventually, Gary Powers paid a small price.

The Air Force has been reported as complaining that it's struggling with an aging fleet. Where is the alleged advanced technology developed from reverse-engineering crashed or captured UFOs?

Most young people do not realize what fools they are in not developing a questioning mind. Obama and Romney and Bush(es) and Clinton and Reagan and Carter; they are the result.

i must admit that when i read the thread title,
touting a "possible solution" to "finally put.. to rest" a mystery that has been hotly contested for a half-century
i was expecting something a little more indepth than "TEAM A HAS BEEN RIGHT ALL ALONG"
i mean by all means, believe what you need to believe regarding this event
since i don't think any of us will ever be getting the full story
and certainly don't stop making threads or discussing it
but please try not to mistake choosing a side for solving a problem.
after all, did you come up with a solution to all our political problems when you cast your ballot earlier?

Im sorry, Mr Shrike, but you make no sense at all. One minute you write

"Whether you dislike the researchers for whatever reason rocks your boat, it isn't the personality you should question, it should be the results of their research."

The next you are slating, amongst others, Stanton Freidman, whos done more genuine, in depth research on this incident than any other person, including Klass.

Then you are accusing people of not doing their research, yet you admit your entire thread is based on a small amount of reading you did of other peoples books. Hypocrisy of the first order.

Its clear that you have little knowledge or understanding of the events at Roswell, so you cannot expect people to take you, or your thread seriously. If you ever do any genuine research of your own, and come to a conclusion based on it, Im sure you would get a much better reaction. You most certainly have not 'put Roswell to rest' with your short foray into paperback debunking literature. Surely, a genuinely inquisitive mind would have read a bit more than 3 or 4 books, all written by debunkers? But you say in your opening post that you disregard all other written evidence because you dont like the authors- Hmmm, very balanced, scientific method you've got there.

Originally posted by The Shrike
I do not even consider that a UFO crashed near Roswell and that bodies were recovered. . . .

Since I wasn't there when it happened and since I did not do any research to form my opinion I don't mind telling you that I rely on the work of a few researchers who dug deeper than the above authors and who are responsible for exposing the hidden truth.

As a matter of course, I am typically skeptical of most matters dealing with UFOs alleged to be of Alien or ET origin; however, I hold in much greater disdain the complete absence of the willingness to consider extraordinary explanation; i.e., narrow-mindedness.

Originally posted by The Shrike
The problem with replies such as yours where sources are maligned because you have a mindset and no one will knock you off it is that ignorance seems to reign.

Then again, never mind . . . you seem to have responded to yourself already . . .

The ultimate expression of ignorance 'The Shrike' talks about others' ignorance...

Let's see, we have 2 scenarios:

High altitude balloons that are used to pick up sound waves of Soviet atomic bomb tests(or similar balloon) crashes on a ranchers property. These balloons were made up of the large rubber carrying balloon(s) and it's cargo. Cargo which includes i-beams, foil, as well as other materials. If you search images of these balloons, you can see how these balloons were constructed. They contained materials that if crashed into the ground, would naturally break apart leaving foil and i-beams strewn across the ground. All of which was found by the ranch-hand and Jesse Marcel.

OR

An alien spacecraft travels trillions of miles from another galaxy, arrives in earths atmosphere and crashes, killing 2 or 3 or it's passengers leaving one alive walking around the spacecraft. Parts of the craft are found that contain foil-like material and small i-beams by the ranch-hand and Jesse Marcel Sr.

So, just from a logical, common sense standpoint of these two scenarios, the alien spacecraft crash is the one that makes more sense? It would have to be a one in a million+ chance that a UFO from another world is constructed of the exact same type of material that balloons were constructed. Not to mention crashes in the same general area that "weather" balloons are used and crash! It's a ridiculous comparison. If these balloons were used at higher altitudes and for different reasons than the typical weather balloons he had found crashed, the materials logically would have to be constructed of differently. Unless Jesse Marcel had a one-on-one connection with the construction of these balloons, of course the material is going to seem foreign. If the balloons are to be used miles in the air for other reasons than weather, it will be made of stronger material depending on their application.

Everyone is basing things off what was started by Stanton Friedman 30 years AFTER the "crash". All that was said is that Marcel found foil and i-beams. Then all of a sudden everyone has a story that they kept hidden for 30+ years. Some of them, stories of alien beings. How do you keep that hidden? I know, it all goes along with the threats, secrets and conspiracies. To believe in Roswell, you have to believe in all of these conspiracies, secrets and stories, while at the same time not needing an ounce of physical proof to believe in it. Talk about scientific.

Originally posted by decepticonLaura
i must admit that when i read the thread title,
touting a "possible solution" to "finally put.. to rest" a mystery that has been hotly contested for a half-century
i was expecting something a little more indepth than "TEAM A HAS BEEN RIGHT ALL ALONG"
i mean by all means, believe what you need to believe regarding this event
since i don't think any of us will ever be getting the full story
and certainly don't stop making threads or discussing it
but please try not to mistake choosing a side for solving a problem.
after all, did you come up with a solution to all our political problems when you cast your ballot earlier?

I didn't "cast" a ballot. I don't select politicians. The Electoral College does that. A vote is too precious to waste on non-deserving individuals who are as crooked as they come. I can always say "I told you so".

Originally posted by Ectoplasm8
Let's see, we have 2 scenarios:

High altitude balloons that are used to pick up sound waves of Soviet atomic bomb tests(or similar balloon) crashes on a ranchers property. These balloons were made up of the large rubber carrying balloon(s) and it's cargo. Cargo which includes i-beams, foil, as well as other materials. If you search images of these balloons, you can see how these balloons were constructed. They contained materials that if crashed into the ground, would naturally break apart leaving foil and i-beams strewn across the ground. All of which was found by the ranch-hand and Jesse Marcel.

OR

An alien spacecraft travels trillions of miles from another galaxy, arrives in earths atmosphere and crashes, killing 2 or 3 or it's passengers leaving one alive walking around the spacecraft. Parts of the craft are found that contain foil-like material and small i-beams by the ranch-hand and Jesse Marcel Sr.

So, just from a logical, common sense standpoint of these two scenarios, the alien spacecraft crash is the one that makes more sense? It would have to be a one in a million+ chance that a UFO from another world is constructed of the exact same type of material that balloons were constructed. Not to mention crashes in the same general area that "weather" balloons are used and crash! It's a ridiculous comparison. If these balloons were used at higher altitudes and for different reasons than the typical weather balloons he had found crashed, the materials logically would have to be constructed of differently. Unless Jesse Marcel had a one-on-one connection with the construction of these balloons, of course the material is going to seem foreign. If the balloons are to be used miles in the air for other reasons than weather, it will be made of stronger material depending on their application.

Everyone is basing things off what was started by Stanton Friedman 30 years AFTER the "crash". All that was said is that Marcel found foil and i-beams. Then all of a sudden everyone has a story that they kept hidden for 30+ years. Some of them, stories of alien beings. How do you keep that hidden? I know, it all goes along with the threats, secrets and conspiracies. To believe in Roswell, you have to believe in all of these conspiracies, secrets and stories, while at the same time not needing an ounce of physical proof to believe in it. Talk about scientific.

Thanks. As I read your comments I visualize us standing back to back against the advancing armies of ALIENS & UFOS members carrying high a banner that reads "IGNORANCE REIGNS, DEATH TO ALL ANTI-ROSWELL UFO CRASHERS!"

What a noble way to die!