For those of you who know Yahweh is evil... Why keep pray to his angels?

You know Yahweh evil but you pray to MichaEl , GabriEl, and many other angels of him. Why is this? I really do not understand the logic.

As a Christian I only pray to God/YHVH/Allah, Whomever you may call him/she/it. Praying to anything/one else other than the Lord is blasphemous.

I have a question, Why in Islam is it important to face Mecca during prayer and more importantly, necessary to make the pilgrimage if you have the monetary ability? ? Isn't that the same as praying in front of a crucifix and Praising the Lord?

Originally posted by arpgme
You know Yahweh evil but you pray to MichaEl , GabriEl, and many other angels of him. Why is this? I really do not understand the logic.

Really? Which illogical part do you not understand? Sky Magicians? Mystical gates in the clouds, kept watch by some guy with wings?


or the entire shenanigans?

Personally, I find the entire lot is illogical.. to each their own..

I once meditated on that name - the Hebrew characters that spell it - and after about 5 or so minutes I felt a "thick darkness" start to build up in me. I'm not sure how else to express the feeling in words, but it felt so wrong that I just had to stop. :shk:

On the flip side: the first time I meditated reciting Gayatri, I shed tears of joy.


The heart knows.

Mr. Confusion back for a second helping. Are there many who believe Yahweh is evil? I know some don't believe in Him, but evil? And I don't know of anyone who prays to angels. It's not a Christian thing, as far as I know.

I'd like to participate, but I'm having trouble getting past the OP.

reply to post by charles1952


Hi Charles,

If Yahweh is real, and he is the god of the Old Testament, then I believe that he's evil. It's easy to read the Old Testament and regard the god that commanded all kinds of atrocities to be evil, perhaps even Satan in disguise.

I don't believe that the teachings of Jesus align with the OT god and that his Father God is not Yahweh.

The Essenes, who were credited with the Dead Sea Scrolls, didn't believe in the same deity as the Hebrews, and that their temples and their leaders were evil, that they worshiped the wrong god and used the wrong calender. Many declare that Jesus was Essene. Even Paul calls Jesus a Nazarene.

Although the Essenes began as an esoteric minority sect within Judaism, they went on to become the very first "Christians," called "Essene-Nazarenes" or "Ebionites". That happened as follows. Several hundred years before the birth of Jesus, the head priest of the Essenes, known as the "Teacher of Righteousness", had a vision: An Angel told him that a great Avatar, the Mashiakh (Christ Messiah), would come to Earth through the Essenes.
www.essene.org...

The Essenes were known to commune with angels and did daily rituals honoring them at sunrise and sunset. You may note that Catholic cannons have outlawed "assemblies with angels." Anyone claiming to have been vistied by an angel was labeled a heretic, or worse.

Personally, I like angels just fine.

My related threads:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by windword

Dear windword,

It's always a pleasure, I know I'm going to learn something from you.

If Yahweh is real, and he is the god of the Old Testament, then I believe that he's evil. . . . perhaps even Satan in disguise.

That alone twists my mind in so many directions that I'm certain I won't be able to explain all my confusion.

Do I understand correctly that, because of the "atrocities," you believe that there were at least two gods? Yahweh and the "good" one? Because if the only god was evil, the game's over, one can't overcome a god, at least the way we define a god. (Unless you think a "good god" was created sometime after the "evil god." But can an evil god create good? I'm starting to get lost.)

So who threw Adam and Eve out of the Garden? The "bad god," because he deprived them of Eden, or the "good god" because he punished a sin and defeated the Tempter? Was it a bad thing for the Hebrews to be taken out of Egypt and fed manna? Can a "bad god" by definition do a good thing?

I've got to take a break for a minute, my brain's doing the backstroke.

You may note that Catholic cannons have outlawed "assemblies with angels." Anyone claiming to have been vistied by an angel was labeled a heretic, or worse.

Mary was visited by an angel, no one has declared her a heretic. It's also hard to believe that any church has outlawed an assembly of angels. What a futile thing to do. What's the church going to do to them, take away their halos?

Personally, I like angels just fine.

Me, too. But I don't worship them.

Anyway, I know I've missed a lot of your points, especially on the Essenes. (I thought "Nazarene" was because he cme from Nazareth.)

Apparently, I've got a lot more work to do on this subject. Can you help me out with what I've stumbled through so far? Thanks.

With respect,
Charles1952

The god of the old testament is evil, an evil fictional character that is.

reply to post by charles1952

Mary was visited by an angel, no one has declared her a heretic. It's also hard to believe that any church has outlawed an assembly of angels. What a futile thing to do. What's the church going to do to them, take away their halos?

HaHa! That made me laugh. Here's what I'm referring to.

reluctant-messenger.com...

The Council Of Laodicea

CANON XXXV.

CHRISTIANS must not forsake the Church of God, and go away and invoke angels and gather assemblies, which things are forbidden. If, therefore, any one shall be found engaged in this covert idolatry, let him be anathema; for he has forsaken our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and has gone over to idolatry.

As for your other questions, it's getting late and I'll have to get back to you for a more in depth answer, hopefully tomorrow. (I have a deadline to meet.)

But just quickly, yes there are 2 gods. God and Satan, Enki and Enlil, Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu. In the case of this philosophy, Yahweh is the more aggressive, destructive and jealous of the Elohim, while the other is the more passive and loving.

It's noteworthy that the only incidence of human interaction with "Satan" in the Old Testament is in the garden, and he isn't called Satan, even then. That's because Satan is the star, the main character of the Old Testament. Job is an example of the Old Testament being an autobiography of Satan, not God. God is not Yahweh, Yahweh is a servant of God, an angel.

Of these ten, seven refer to human beings and two refer to the Angel of Yahweh for sure. The lone outlier is 1 Chron 21:1. This is the famous passage where “Satan” provokes David to take a census, but in the parallel passage, 2 Sam 24:1-25, it’s Yahweh provoking David to take the census. Due to this parallel, and due to the fact that “satan” here has no article, this is viewed by some as the single instance of an evil, cosmic figure called “satan” in the OT. It actually isn’t, though. If you’re familiar with my work on the two Yahwehs in the OT, the parallel (Yahweh-satan) is striking to you. The “satan” figure here is none other than the Angel of Yahweh — and so this instance without the article is akin to the two instances in the book of Numbers where “satan” was used of the Angel. This relieves the “is Yahweh Satan?” question and any notion of contradiction — since it would mean BOTH passages have Yahweh provoking David — one appears to be the invisible Yahweh; the other is the visible Yahweh.
michaelsheiser.com...

Food for thought.

Originally posted by arpgme
You know Yahweh evil but you pray to MichaEl , GabriEl, and many other angels of him. Why is this? I really do not understand the logic.

I've never met anyone who prayed to angels.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by arpgme
You know Yahweh evil but you pray to MichaEl , GabriEl, and many other angels of him. Why is this? I really do not understand the logic.

I've never met anyone who prayed to angels.

I have. Witches. Some forms of witchcraft evoke names of angels, both fallen and not in summoning spells and both praying and worshipping them. I came across a few spells in the Necronomikon years ago when i was playing for the other team.

Depravity comes in all forms.

@ ARPGME, Yahweh is not evil, because Jesus is Yahweh, it's the name he bore pre-human incarnation. The Tetragrammaton name of Yahweh YHWH means "behold the hand, behold the nail" or "behold the nailed hand". Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Praying to and communing with angels is a very old tradition, that some say Enoch established. Enoch names the angels, their positions or stations and their perspective duties or jobs. Although mainstream Hebrews weren't literate in the archaic scriptures, first century Jews and early Christians revived angelic rituals and prayers.

Several examples of post-Talmudic prayers to angels can be found in the Jewish service even today. One such invocation, one of the most famous and most familiar to those who participate in daily prayer, is a piyyut generally included in the prayers for forgiveness (Selihot) recited before and after Rosh Hashana. The precise date of origin of this piyyut is difficult to establish. It is entitled ‘Usherers of Mercy’, and begins with the words:

Usherers of mercy, usher in our [plea for] mercy, before the Master of mercy, You who cause prayer to be heard, may you cause our prayer to be heard before the Hearer of prayer, You who cause our outcry to be heard, may you cause our outcry to be heard, before the Hearer of outcry, You who usher in tears, may you usher in our tears, before the King Who finds favor through tears. Exert yourselves and multiply supplication and petition before the King, God, exalted and most high, etc.[4]

In other words, the petitioner turns to the angels, asking them to pray on his behalf and to intervene for him so that his prayers and outcries come before God, as if the angels were the ‘gatekeepers’ or guards of God’s palace, determining what God should and should not hear. A similar plea is voiced in the song recited in the Ne‘illah service, (the concluding service of Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement): ‘Angels of mercy, servants of the Supreme, accost God with the best thoughts, perhaps he will show pity to the poor begging people
faculty.biu.ac.il...

Although angel communion and worship was met with resistance, it wasn't considered "witchcraft" until the 4th century at the Council of Laodicea.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


How can Jesus (yahoshua - salvation of Yahweh) be the son of god (Yahweh) if he is Yahweh? why would Jesus call god/Yahweh "abba" (father) then?

The negative energy of aggression I felt from Yahweh so if Jesus is Yahweh, no thank you.

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

How can Jesus (yahoshua - salvation of Yahweh) be the son of god (Yahweh) if he is Yahweh? why would Jesus call god/Yahweh "abba" (father) then?

The negative energy of aggression I felt from Yahweh so if Jesus is Yahweh, no thank you.

Was it negative aggression or conviction?

reply to post by guitarplayer


Agression - and I cast him away from my presence by the kingdom of heaven within me. Just like a wife can leave an abusive husband. There are laws and free-will is one of them which this character does not respect...

reply to post by arpgme

You know Yahweh evil but you pray to MichaEl , GabriEl, and many other angels of him. Why is this? I really do not understand the logic.

Should a person attempt to pray to any angels if the person has no ability to distinguish between angels and demons??

This spirituality stuff is so strange, and funny at times. There always always seems to be two sides to everything.. or three or maybe even more.

Someone said they meditated on YHWH and felt dark agression. Ok, so how do you know that some demon who had a hold of your life didn't say "hey they are trying to break free and find the light and love of YHWH, so let's hurry and overwhelm them with agression so they will back away and be afraid to ever try THAT again!" But waitn.. if god is all powerful why did he allow that to happen? Oh, well maybe it was a test, and if you had just stayed meditative on it for a little while longer, then you would've seen the truth and felt the love of YHWH. But you failed the test because you didn't have enough faith... But what kind of god would test you like that? What a jerk!

And so on and so on.... There are arguments for both sides into infinity. And there are infinite sides.

I remember a thread where a guy said he fell asleep on the couch and woke up to see a tannish colored, sickly looking "grey" standing over him. He immediately cried out for Jesus, and the thing looked at him with disgust and hatred and vanished. The op of the thread took this as "that thing was evil, and Jesus saved me." Another poster said that the alien was probably an advanced being who was going to show him something or teach him something, but then it got disgusted after seeing that he was stuck in such a primitive way of thinking since he actually believed in Jesus so it knew that he could not be taught any advanced knowledge.

When you're talking about anything that we do not understand, like ET, UFOs, dimensions, God, Angels, Demons... there are no rules. You can say whatever you want.

I'm more concerned with what people do, rather than what they believe, or who they pray to or worship...

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

How can Jesus (yahoshua - salvation of Yahweh) be the son of god (Yahweh) if he is Yahweh? why would Jesus call god/Yahweh "abba" (father) then?

The negative energy of aggression I felt from Yahweh so if Jesus is Yahweh, no thank you.

What you feel negative from Yahweh is your impending judgement because you have not accepted the Savior. To understand who Jesus is, you have to understand what the Son of God is. The Son of God is the physical manifestation of the Father. Jesus is the only Begotten Son of the Father, but not begotten as humans beget. Jesus is the Voice of Yahweh, that power which creates and destroys. With his own hands, the one we call Jesus created Adam. It was also the Son who appeared to Abraham the day he destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, and it was also the Son standing there with Moses the day he delivered the Law. As Man was made in the Image of God, we have Body, Spirit and Soul. So to does God, because he made us as he is. Each piece being part of the whole. We cannot see the Father as he is Spirit, so he gave us a face we could see, the face of Christ.

The entire book of Isaiah lays down this concept, but i'll cut it short.

Isaiah 44:6-8

6 “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
7 And who can proclaim as I do?
Then let him declare it and set it in order for Me,
Since I appointed the ancient people.
And the things that are coming and shall come,
Let them show these to them.
8 Do not fear, nor be afraid;
Have I not told you from that time, and declared it?
You are My witnesses.
Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.’”

Isaiah 45:11:21


11 Thus says the Lord,
The Holy One of Israel, and his Maker:
“Ask Me of things to come concerning My sons;
And concerning the work of My hands, you command Me.
12 I have made the earth,
And created man on it.
I—My hands—stretched out the heavens,
And all their host I have commanded.
13 I have raised him up in righteousness,
And I will direct all his ways;
He shall build My city
And let My exiles go free,
Not for price nor reward,”
Says the Lord of hosts.

The Lord, the Only Savior

14 Thus says the Lord:


“The labor of Egypt and merchandise of Cush
And of the Sabeans, men of stature,
Shall come over to you, and they shall be yours;
They shall walk behind you,
They shall come over in chains;
And they shall bow down to you.
They will make supplication to you, saying, ‘Surely God is in you,
And there is no other;
There is no other God.’”
15 Truly You are God, who hide Yourself,
O God of Israel, the Savior!
16 They shall be ashamed
And also disgraced, all of them;
They shall go in confusion together,
Who are makers of idols.
17 But Israel shall be saved by the Lord
With an everlasting salvation;
You shall not be ashamed or disgraced
Forever and ever.


18 For thus says the Lord,
Who created the heavens,
Who is God,
Who formed the earth and made it,
Who has established it,
Who did not create it in vain,
Who formed it to be inhabited:
“I am the Lord, and there is no other.
19 I have not spoken in secret,
In a dark place of the earth;
I did not say to the seed of Jacob,
‘Seek Me in vain’;
I, the Lord, speak righteousness,
I declare things that are right.


20 “Assemble yourselves and come;
Draw near together,
You who have escaped from the nations.
They have no knowledge,
Who carry the wood of their carved image,
And pray to a god that cannot save.
21 Tell and bring forth your case;
Yes, let them take counsel together.
Who has declared this from ancient time?
Who has told it from that time?
Have not I, the Lord?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me.


Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


I suppose you think that using the bible to prove the bible is all you need to do, and now you think that the case is closed. But it isn't. It's pretty poetry, but there are so many things wrong with those verses that you quoted.

6 “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:

Who is saying this, Isaiah, the king of Israel or his redeemer, the Lord of Hosts?

‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.
7 And who can proclaim as I do?

The first what, sentient being? I doubt it, but this statement insinuates that there are others. Then he goes on to say that there are no others.

Any being that has to proclaim to be God, proclaim to be the creator and demand to be worshiped is a needy, egotistical, bit fat liar.

Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.’”

So, the speaker, who declares himself to be God, asks a rhetorical question of meager humans that couldn't be answered at the time. So his lie went unchallenged. But if he didn't "know" of other gods, that doesn't mean that none other exist. We now know that there are many other "rocks" out there, and that Earth isn't the only one.

The God of the Old Testament is a liar. My God is not a rock, or any object or body and can't be contained in one ego driven personality. My God is too big to set foot on planet Earth and terrorize it's inhabitants. My God is the spiritual essence of consciousness and intelligence and it's body is the entire creation, it's soul. the essence of all souls.

Since my God, the God that I worship isn't Yahweh, then Yahweh is wrong and there is another God, who is greater than this evil lord. Yahweh, if he even exists, is only another citizen of the great creation, not the creator.

reply to post by arpgme


What you most likely felt was a demonic manifestation becoming agitated that you were thinking about Yahweh and Jesus. It caused you to become fearful, or he ( wait, i'm sorry, IT) became fearful / angry.

reply to post by windword

I suppose you think that using the bible to prove the bible is all you need to do

Let me know when you figure out an alternative way for a Christian to argue.