Ancient 4,200-year-old Fortress Found

Originally posted by hangedman13
Very cool find Slayer

I swear you must get alerts when new finds are made

I do wonder though who actually inhabited this site in it's hay day? I wonder if any smaller things were found. Like coins or weapons, might tell us a little bit more than the structures.

I scan the horizon nightly for the bat signal

How do you always find this COOL stuff Slayer...!? ALWAYS

As regards ancient seafaring trade routes some historians speculate that the Phoenicians traded with the ancient Britons for copper and tin (although at that time they were not known as 'Britons', that's a Roman name).

reply to post by SLAYER69


S&F Murcia is the name of both the region (on the coast) in SE Spain and its capital.

It sounds as if this type of construction was carried later into the eastern Med -- very interesting.*

I realize this is not megalithic construction. Nonetheless, it's impressive.

If my memory serves me, I believe the really ancient megalithic structures were constructed without mortar.

*I re-read the article to make sure I understood it correctly. I see what confused me. On first reading, I thought the article was saying that some of the fortification traits were found in the East Med AFTER 2200 BC.

"Some of the fortification traits, such as the massive towers and the secondary door, could be found in some places of the Eastern Mediterranean slightly before 2200 B.C. This might show unexpected political relations between distant regions,"

“The model is typical of ancient Mediterranean civilizations, including the second city of Troy in Turkey, and the urban world of the Middle East‭ (‬Palestine,‭ ‬Israel and Jordan‭)‬. According to the archaeologists, people from the East participated in the construction of the fortification.”

" ‘It was not until some‭ ‬400‭ ‬to‭ ‬800‭ ‬years later that civilizations like the Hittites and Mycenaeans,‭ ‬or city-states such as Ugarit,‭ ‬incorporated the innovative methods seen at La Basida into their military architecture,’ the archaeologists said in a statement.”

news.discovery.com...

reply to post by SLAYER69


Great stuff mate - I appreciate you bringing this to my attention.

All ancient (& forbidden) archaeology is an x-file to me - I really wish I could time travel when I see & read of sites such as this.

"I shall call him...............mini Indiana" (Ahh - thats you by the way)

S&F

The devil is in the details.
Dating methods will always be up for interpretation.
You can take a brand new one day old rock from a volcanic island and date it to tens of thousands of years in age.

Haven't been on this site very long but what I've noticed is slayer could fart and still get 7 stars. Nice fInd btw.

Great find! Hopefully we can learn more about our ancestors from this sight! Maybe Ancient Aliens is already doing an episode on it already

Originally posted by SLAYER69

b]Note:
There were a few threads written a while ago about how some believe the mythical "Atlantis" was actually a large port city on the West Coast of Spain in the Atlantic that may have been destroyed by a giant Tsunami. No, I'm not saying this is that old but, Could this either be a lingering related remnant or just simply and unrelated but very interesting site?.

Correction: West Coast of Spain is PORTUGAL.

Thanks

Originally posted by voyger2
Correction: West Coast of Spain is PORTUGAL.

Actually:

PORTUGAL would be on their Western Border and their West Coasts are North and South of PORTUGAL respectively

Thanks

You're welcome

reply to post by SLAYER69


now that we are going in "small" details...

technically Spain only haves a west coast (this is facing west) located at the north of Portugal (Galiza) and it is a small one btw... the other one is facing southwest and would be the one that maybe had the mythical port.

thanks.

Great post Slayer, I must confess I find the topic of these ancient civilisations most intriguing.
Keep them coming

Originally posted by voyger2
the other one is facing southwest and would be the one that maybe had the mythical port.

There appears to be evidence of a possible actual archeological site which may have been an ancient port city. However, some are trying to connect it to "Mythical Atlantis"

thanks.

You're welcome again.

Well Atlantis?

Atlantis (in Greek, Ἀτλαντὶς νῆσος, "island of Atlas") is a legendary island first mentioned in Plato's dialogues Timaeus and Critias, written about 360 BC. According to Plato, Atlantis was a naval power lying "in front of the Pillars of Hercules" that conquered many parts of Western Europe and Africa 9,000 years before the time of Solon, or approximately 9600 BC. After a failed attempt to invade Athens, Atlantis sank into the ocean "in a single day and night of misfortune"

en.wikipedia.org...

The Pillars of Hercules (Latin: Columnae Herculis, Greek: Ἡράκλειοι Στῆλαι, Arabic: أعمدة هرقل‎, Spanish: Columnas de Hércules) was the phrase that was applied in Antiquity to the promontories that flank the entrance to the Strait of Gibraltar. The northern Pillar is the Rock of Gibraltar in the British overseas territory of Gibraltar. A corresponding North African peak not being predominant, the identity of the southern Pillar has been disputed through history,[1] with the two most likely candidates being Monte Hacho in Ceuta and Jebel Musa in Morocco.

en.wikipedia.org...

Those could be the ruins of "Atlantis" as per the description as Plato said that Atlantis "flanked" the pillars of hercules.

Given the location of those ruins, and then the Islands off the coast of Spain...Possible imo.

Interesting find never the less

Originally posted by TinfoilTP
The devil is in the details.
Dating methods will always be up for interpretation.
You can take a brand new one day old rock from a volcanic island and date it to tens of thousands of years in age.

A) Citation for the above, please.
B) One date is no date.

Awesome...I love when we find fortresses and castles that are 4,200 years old,makes you really think that civilization is alot older.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
This may help

Göbekli Tepe - the World's First Temple?

Located in modern Turkey, Göbekli Tepe is one of the most important archaeological sites in the world. The discovery of this stunning 10,000 year old site in the 1990s sent shock waves through the archaeological world and beyond, with some researchers even claiming it was the site of the biblical Garden of Eden. The many examples of sculptures and megalithic Architecture which make up what is perhaps the world’s earliest Temple at Göbekli Tepe predate pottery, metallurgy, the invention of writing, the wheel and the beginning of agriculture. The fact that hunter–gatherer peoples could organize the construction of such a complex site as far back as the 10th or 11th millennium BC not only revolutionizes our understanding of hunter-gatherer Culture but poses a serious challenge to the conventional view of the rise of civilization.

Well and good, written by someone who has a B.A and Masters in archaeology, so he considers himself a pro and is the one who said "shock." But he doesn't present any evidence that this event was shocking. Perhaps it is beyond this article, but I think the criticism here is two-fold.

First, a lot of claimed superlatives aren't, really. They consist of other people making the claim, but when you look at the record, those "shocks" are few and far between, and usually made by the popular press that is pre-disposed to use words like "shock" so you'll be intrigued and read the article. Pointing out that this guy used the word "shock" is really not all that shocking. Basically this site was excavated by archaeologists, reported in the professional literature by archaeologists and other archaeologists said, "Cool!"

Second, it is still bona fide archaeologists who keep finding the new stuff. These aren't interested amateurs showing up professional archaeologists, by and large. They are archaeologists themselves advancing the state of knowledge. Dates get pushed back. New findings happen. This is all a good thing and doesn't show "traditional" archaeology in a bad light at all. Indeed, it IS traditional archaeology.

And, yeah, it moves slowly and conservatively and once in awhile an amateur like Heinrich Schliemann wins by thinking outside the box. I feel a bit in the middle on this age-old controversy and always have been. As almost-an-archaeologist myself (B.A, in Anthriopology, which includes archaeology, cultural and physical anthropology, and linguistics) and having been on some serious digs (surveyed, documented, accurate to the inch) I understand the archaeologists' points of view vis-a-vis amateurs, who are too often pot hole diggers who destroy sites and sensationalize everything. They'll be claiming every new stone hut proves Atlantis, or that it is buried in Antarctica even though Santorini is staring them in the face the whole time.

On the other hand, I also see professional archaeologists who hate intrusion into "their" field so much that it blinds them to new insights. Rather than remain open-minded they will fight you tooth and nail for every sentence you write on something admittedly speculative, such as "Noah's Flood," for example, but won't sit down and write out a well-documented rebuttal, preferring ad hominem attacks instead.

I find the whole situation extremely disappointing.

reply to post by schuyler


There is the rub...

Oftentimes it isn't "Traditional Archeologist" who stumble across a find. In the case of Göbekli Tepe it was a Shepard tending his flock who made the discovery but it took Archeologists to investigate and validate it's age. Another example, the dead sea scrolls were found by another Shepard, this one in search of a wayward member of his flock.

My point being is that until there is a new discovery [Like Göbekli Tepe for example] many members of the archeological community will often scoff at a new slightly varying theory if it doesn't quite fit into their paradigm. We have members here at ATS who demonstrate this very often. Your reply is a prime example of how one will speak in the definitive. Meanwhile, excuse the expression.

Nothing is written in stone.

I also am looking forward to seeing what develops with this site.

I posted Bronze Age European Fortress found in Espana.,, but haven't had time for following up.

With the speculations, I expect we will see there will be inter-connections of several peoples involved in this site, with one such as the Phoenicians being the conveyors of the "Stores" of this Site.

The Trade network they established, was important to maintain, and I expect this site will be part of that network.

2. Phoenician Geographical Expansion

What had started as a group of three independent defensible coastal towns, Tyre, Byblos, and Sidon, was by now a string of hundreds settlements and trading posts which had gone beyond the Nile delta and inexorably grew, in some stretches of coast by the pact of "blind bargaining" with the peoples there, and in other areas, devoid of resistance, by settlement along the North African Coast and the Eastern Mediterranean Islands, Cyprus, Rhodes, Crete, Sicily, Malta, reaching the Atlantic Coast as far south as Mogador on the Atlantic coast of what is now Morocco, and including the entire Iberian Coast from Huelva in the West to beyond Valencia in the East. The Eastern Mediterranean is not a windy sea and the Phoenicians' principal means of propulsion was the oar. The settlements were laid out a day's rowing from one to the next, about every 30 to 60 miles. The purpose of this continued expansion was to obtain more raw material for the trade with Egypt and with the tribes to the east.

3. Metallurgy and Military Power

In 2500 B.C. the peoples around the Mediterranean basin were still in the New Stone Age or Neolithic, having Copper as the only available metal. On arrival on the Atlantic coast of France the Phoenicians came for the first time upon tin, and either devised or learned the technology necessary to convert it to Bronze by combining it with Copper, which was freely available in the Middle East. Bronze is a far superior material to Copper for practically all purposes, it is stronger to use for weapons and as armour for men and fixings and cladding for ships, and is less prone to rusting. This would be the equivalent today, if such a parallel is wise or possible, of one country coming secretly on the only source of Uranium for Nuclear weapons. So important was this to them that they named North-western France "Barra Tannica" the land of Tin, from which the names Brittany and consequently Britain come. Some specialists claim the Druids, the Celtic religious hierarchy, controlled the trade in tin at all its sources, from Cornwall in the North through Western France and Galicia, to Huelva in the South, and it was therefore perhaps natural that the Phoenicians should decide to try to prevent any other Mediterranean sea-going people from reaching the source of their security and the military power, which gave them complete control of their world for over 1000 years.

This is my hypothesis on how they set about doing so.

The narrative is continued in Gibraltar, the Pillars of the Phoenicians which expands on various aspects of the importance of the Straits area.

Ciao

Shane

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by niceguybob

 

Rarely, in some instances such as the 9,000 + year old site like Gobekli Tepe comes as a shock and hits them like a blind upper cut.

What a load of rubbish - it was classical archaeology that dated the site - at 11,000+ years old, not 9,000!

Archaeologists dream of finding something that is older than anything else - i doesn't shock them - it adds to their reputation!