How do Christians interpret the 2nd commandment?

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
What are your thoughts on the well built, bearded man stereotype of Roman gods (see OP) being applied to the God of the bible.

I guess that you would have to check with the painter or sculptor, Michelangelo, in this case, to find out why they depicted God that way, though EightBits makes an excellent point that, if one was to personify God (since no one has seen him,) an old guy, bearded because beards are often symbols of wisdom, Caucasian due to the target audience and buffed out because he's omnipotent would probably be the way a lot of us would do it.

In the book The Shack, William Young depicted God the Father as an old and large African American woman, and I didn't really see any problem with that. Personally, I've always thought that the "old white guy with a beard" was a somewhat immature way of looking at him, but "incomprehensible" is a little tough to sketch out, I suppose.

Your conclusion that the Israelites produced two pieces of artwork in their multi-thousand year history is not a valid one.

Thats what the bible tells us.

The Israelites never produced an image of God on their own, without being instructed to by God.

So you think that the Bible is a complete and comprehensive history of the Israelites? Wow, even Fundamentalists don't give it that much weight!

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n


1. Does it allows one to depict God in an image, as long as that image isn't worshiped?

2. What is your view of the depiction of God, in the Sistine Chapel. Is it in harmony with the second commandment?

and just out of curiosity....

3. Given how the Romans depicted the biblical God as a bearded, well built man, have you believe they modelled the depiction of the biblical God after their old gods such as...

You know- I've already touched on this exact topic in another thread of yours. I went into great detail. Perhaps you didn't read it? www.abovetopsecret.com...
1) Christ is God. So, Christ can be depicted.
2) Sistine Chapel showing of God the Father- isn't allowed in iconography (which has strict rules).
3) No. That sort of thing came about in the Middle Ages.

I recommend for you to go back and read it. It's quite detailed. However, here are some highlights:
Idolatry is the worship of images, the worship of gods other than the God of the bible by images, and the worship of animals, people, and objects, none of which is practiced in the Christian Church. We practice douleia but not latreia when it comes to the veneration of icons. I would say that it is an effort of conscious intent. One should always be aware of what they are doing and guard their thoughts accordingly.

Our clergy are icons of Christ to us, just as we are icons of Christ to everyone we meet.

Icons are a visual showing of a spiritual reality. They are not meant to portray a physical reality. They are actually very symbolic on a number of levels. Iconographers are said to 'write' icons, not paint them. And we 'read' them. They are biblical teaching in visual form.

Originally posted by Bisman

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by Bisman

 

I have never seen anyone calling themselves a christian worship a crucifix, not any protestant ones at least, we'd be having words with their preacher if he allowed any of that.

praying is worshiping...

and like EVERY sect does this.its not something taught and encouraged by the church(s), but we see it going on all the time.
dont many latin catholics traditionally hang them above doorways, some families have traditions of tapping it when they leave the room.
and catholic nuns kissing small pocket crucifix's like they are candy.

those are all idols, and this is all worship. the commandment dosnt say anything about idols being ok if they represent the jewish/chrsitian god. it says idols.

edit on 17-10-2012 by Bisman because: (no reason given)

I pray thee good sir, to hearken unto my post.

There are around six different Greek words that are usually translated into English as 'prayer'. These words encompass supplications, interecessions, thanksgiving, etc.

Your claim that we worship icons is blatantly false. We don't. You know what we do? Every year we have something called Forgiveness Vespers which kicks off Lent. Everyone in the church asks forgiveness of everyone else. Often, people will make a prostration in front of another person and kiss them. We're not worshipping each other- we're showing respect.

Forgive me. I saw the thread title and thought someone was after my guns again.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

If it's being worshipped or glorified in any manner yeah it does violate the second commandment,

But do you think the 2nd commandment allows one to paint an image to represent God as a decoration? (even if its not worshipped or glorified)



What are your thoughts on the well built, bearded man stereotype of Roman gods (see OP) being applied to the God of the bible.

Roman gods don't have beards, the only one who did was Zeus who in the ripped off Roman pagan religion was Jupiter. As for the well built man, probably symbolises Adam, who formed fully grown, hence the nakedness of the chap in your picture.

Personally i do not think he would want us trying to make images of what we think he looks like, no matter how benevolent the intentions are. As a protestant christian i take the 10 commandments pretty seriously, so in terms of the second commandment i personally do not believe we should even attempt to make images or "icons" as some call them of what God looks like. The Israelites tried to pull that stunt with the golden calf by saying they were either worshipping God by worshipping the golden calf or that they were just worshipping towards the golden calf not actually worshipping it and it didn't fly with Moses or God. When i pray i do not even try to picture anything, not Jesus or a cross, just empty blank nothing.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

What I don't understand about your position:

so in terms of the second commandment i personally do not believe we should even attempt to make images or "icons" as some call them of what God looks like.

is that I thought the Second Commandment says not to make images of anything. Is that your position?

Or is it that we can make pictures of things that aren't supposed to remind us of God?

Or is it that we aren't supposed to make things that we treat as God?

Sorry, I'm just not clear on your position.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by adjensen

 

Your conclusion that the Israelites produced two pieces of artwork in their multi-thousand year history is not a valid one.

Thats what the bible tells us.

The Israelites never produced an image of God on their own, without being instructed to by God.

Yes they did, the idolaters made idols to him, the entire OT is filled full of his judgements against the apostates for their idolatry, thats what all their exiles were for. There were the monotheist Israelites led by prophets like Elijah and there were the polytheist Israelites worshipping Ba'al and Asherah/Ashatoreth. Solomon put Moloch above Yahweh and thats the reason Israel split into Ephraim (Northern Kingdom) and Judah (Southern kingdom), because of God's love for David he spared Solomon that punishment and it fell on his son instead.

Originally posted by charles1952
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

What I don't understand about your position:

so in terms of the second commandment i personally do not believe we should even attempt to make images or "icons" as some call them of what God looks like.

is that I thought the Second Commandment says not to make images of anything. Is that your position?

Or is it that we can make pictures of things that aren't supposed to remind us of God?

Or is it that we aren't supposed to make things that we treat as God?

Sorry, I'm just not clear on your position.

What did Israel do with the things they made with their hands? They ended up worshipping them and "playing the harlot" with them. My position is i wouldn't make anything i'd end up worshipping over God or otherwise, i don't care what it is supposed to represent.

Take the bronze serpent of Moses, the symbol many ambulances often bear as a logo nowadays. Having the image was not evil it's what you do with it that makes it evil, but just to play it safe i still would not have images of God/Jesus in my home, i'm just not going to do it.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Dear lonewolf19792000,

Having the image was not evil it's what you do with it that makes it evil, but just to play it safe i still would not have images of God/Jesus in my home, i'm just not going to do it.

I think that's a very reasonable position and I would encourage anyone who believes that would be a source of evil for them to follow your example.

My sister-in-law and her husband are recovering from serious drinking problems. They, of course, won't let alcohol into their home. Smart move.

Worshipping idols is not a tempation I fall into, so I suppose I'm not as sensitive to it as others are. As an example, I have a Crucifix frome Rome 2000 on my desk. It's a good reminder for me to be willing to share in His suffering and to be grateful to Him. Be that as it may, I hope you enjoy Heaven's rewards.

With respect,
Charles1952

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


The way I see the commandment is to not fashion a statue or idol. Sort of like how the Hebrews made a golden calf at Mt. Sinai. I am not really bothered by depictions of Christ made by artists in children's books for Sunday school classes either.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


The Israelites never produced an image of God on their own, without being instructed to by God.

Yes they did, the idolaters made idols to him, the entire OT is filled full of his judgements against the apostates for their idolatry, thats what all their exiles were for.

Well, I was referring to the God fearing Israelites, not those who rebelled.
The righteous ones never made an image of anything without being instructed to.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Roman gods don't have beards, the only one who did was Zeus who in the ripped off Roman pagan religion was Jupiter.

Here are some more...

Saturn


Neptune


Bearded and well built.... same traits as the depiction of God in the sistine chapel.

reply to post by adjensen

So you think that the Bible is a complete and comprehensive history of the Israelites? Wow, even Fundamentalists don't give it that much weight!

I'm not saying it is, but its clear that the Israelites were bound by religious law to NOT depict God.

MatithYaHuW 19:18
..."Do not manufacture nor consume for yourselves any contamination, nor any image to worship, not of anything that is in the ShamaYAim above, or that is in the Earth beneath, or that is in the water under the Earth."

It says not to make "any" image to worship... breaking this down in the easiest of understandings would be a CROSS or similar, with or without our Messiah upon it. It says "anything" that is in the ShamaYAim (heavens). Easy and straightforward but people who are told to listen to man rather than YAH will simply disregard this and keep their idols. Most religions are loaded up with idols and traditions. Even the Jehovah's Witnesses use pagan phrases like Lord and Holy and many others in their teachings but will condemn others that keep pagan traditions like christmas and easter. If their 'Leaders" do not tell them what to believe or what not to believe than they can never think for themselves and this is the same with all religions sadly.

halleluYAH (praise be to YAH)

Well, I was referring to the God fearing Israelites, not those who rebelled.
The righteous ones never made an image of anything without being instructed to.

That's an interesting point, and another illustration of the difference between a scripture produced by and for thinking people based on a public revelation, and a scripture conceived of as dictated by a superhuman entity in a private revelation. The northern Israelites, the ten tribes, apparently believed that they were adhering to the Sinai Covenant. The southern viewpoint, the Judean view, was that the northerners were not observant.

You would have us take sides in that dispute? The religion out of which the dispute arises, First Temple Judaism, doesn't exist anymore. "Judaism" isn't even the right word for it yet. But, of course, you are the arbiter of who was the better proto-Jew. You've read the Koran, after all.

There was no prohibition against making an image of anything which you do not worship. Solomon, a southerner, made images of gods to be worshipped, by his wives (who were not parties to the covenant of which the Second Commandment is part). He was not punished. (The dissolution of his kingdom shortly after his death, based on what my Bible remarks, was because his taxes fell on the north, where there was something to tax, but the public works spending was in the south, on Solomon's Jerusalem projects: Temple, walls and his palace).

Whether Solomon commissioned some representation of his God in the First Temple, we just don't know. If he did, it would likely have been in the inner sanctum, and thus holy (in its strict sense, reserved for the exclusive use of God). I would guess that it would have been something ephemeral, like the clouds of smoke given off by incense burners, recalling the clouds that shrouded Sinai, and the pillar that led the People out of Egypt.

There is no "image" of anything except that the viewer makes an image of it. is not a smiling face. What is on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel is paint. That figure over there is God, and not Jupiter, or Socrates, or Michaelagelo's father, or just a coincidental "Jesus on a grilled cheese sandwich" when the viewer says it's God.

The first priest who looked at the Temple incense smoke and was reminded of his God made an image of his God then and there. No Commandment was broken in that moment. No physical trace of the moment survives, no comment about the moment was recorded.

I am morally certain the moment happened, however. The alternative is that I can connect dots immediately in the casual imagining that no other man connected in year after year of living through the experience. That just isn't the way the human mind works.

The ten commandments are part of the ministry of death. These do not apply to Christians. The only law Christians are bound by is the law of love.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

The Israelites never produced an image of God on their own, without being instructed to by God.

Yes they did, the idolaters made idols to him, the entire OT is filled full of his judgements against the apostates for their idolatry, thats what all their exiles were for.

Well, I was referring to the God fearing Israelites, not those who rebelled.
The righteous ones never made an image of anything without being instructed to.

Yes they did, i told you before they had frescoes depicting the cycles of the moon painted in their synogogues. They didn't determine the sabbaths by consecutive days like modern jews do, they required 2 credible witnesses to observe the moon and then they would come before the assembly and a "trial" would commence in which their credibility would be established and proven and then when questioned about what phase of the moon they observed they would point at one of the moon cycles painted on the wall of the synogogue. These trials occurred because sometimes the apostates would infiltrate and try to make them have a false sabbath so they'd break the law.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Roman gods don't have beards, the only one who did was Zeus who in the ripped off Roman pagan religion was Jupiter.

Here are some more...

Saturn


Neptune


Bearded and well built.... same traits as the depiction of God in the sistine chapel.

That's because Jupiter and Saturn are pretty much the same god. All this goes right back to Nimrod and Babylon. Same gods but different names. Both Rome and Jerusalem were centers of trade and commerce, so was Babylon and all of them along the silk road to the orient (what we call China) and it's no surprise that these areas would influence eachother, merchants bringing in their own religions and spreading them about. Thats how Mithraism ended up in Rome when Mithra worship originated in the East. Even the cult of Cybele ended up in Rome and was a pretty large cult, and Cybele worship originated in Asia, or also known as Thrace in modern day Turkey. The Vatican is actually built ontop of the temple of Cybele and Cybele worship included things like having drunken sex with children (more often than not little boys) and ritual sacrifice of children.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
I'm not saying it is, but its clear that the Israelites were bound by religious law to NOT depict God.

How is it so clear? Point to anywhere in scripture that says "to NOT depict God", and just saying "well, they never did" isn't a valid response because there are a plethora of reasons that can be applied to that, including the fact that the Bible isn't a comprehensive history of everything that the Israelites did, as you just agreed.

You are making an inference, which is in conflict with the actual words of the Second Commandment -- that's why there is general disagreement with your position, because your opinion (the inference) doesn't trump the facts (the wording of the Second Commandment.)

Originally posted by apsalmist
The ten commandments are part of the ministry of death. These do not apply to Christians. The only law Christians are bound by is the law of love.

Matthew 22:34-40

34 But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. 35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?”

37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Loving God comes first, it's the first and greatest commandment, the first 4 laws of the Decalogue observe the first greatest commandment. The second greatest commandment falls to the last 6 laws of the Decalogue. You are mistaken, the Decalogue is imbedded in the very roots of christianity and it always has been. Most people do not recognize it because these laws are grafted into our spirits and within our minds beause:

Jeremiah 31:31-34

31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,[a] says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Now comes the next question some may ask. Why do christians not keep the sabbath?

The answer is, we do, we keep sabbath everyday because everyday is to by holy and dedicated to our God. Jesus bought us the Sabbath, the Rest at Golgotha and we have entered into a perpetual state of spiritual rest from our fleshly labors for righeousness. This is what the second covenant is, no longer do we labor for the Rest, it is given to us by Grace. God's mercy is that he does not give us what we deserve, which is to be destroyed. Grace is that he gives us what we do not deserve, eternal life. Eternal Sabbath. Now every day belongs to Jesus, who is our God, he purchased us by his blood.

Matthew 12:8 For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

So as you can see, every aspect of a christians life is always centered around the Decalogue, which is Divine law. We desire to do these things subconciously. When you are called out and come to Jesus, your spirit attunes to his will and your desire is to do his will. Granted we sometimes fail but that is what the second covenant covers, it covers our failures.