"God" Defined: The Search For Divinity (All Members Welcome)

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Nice thread.

I am an atheist who really searched (and still is) impartiality so I made a strong friendship with a christian preacher. So both camps can, ultimately, combine and find an equilibrium which is very reminding of the Truth... In fact, him and I are actually starting to think we got it.

I made a thread myself about the Third Possibility - the one in which christianism holds one half of the puzzle, and atheism holds the other half. once combined, you can guess what you get! A third point of view, which encompasses all of the puzzle.

reply to post by swan001

I am an atheist who really searched (and still is) impartiality so I made a strong friendship with a christian preacher. So both camps can, ultimately, combine and find an equilibrium which is very reminding of the Truth... In fact, him and I are actually starting to think we got it.

I made a thread myself about the Third Possibility - the one in which christianism holds one half of the puzzle, and atheism holds the other half. once combined, you can guess what you get! A third point of view, which encompasses all of the puzzle.

Clever, clever...exactly where I was going with the "third camp" thing I posted previously in this thread. My thinking is that the Christians are emphasizing the wrong parts of their faith, and atheists are letting them know, "Hey, you're doing it wrong."

Now the atheists have to find the physical evidence and the Christians should listen to what they're finding so they can use their intuition and faith to find the parts that are corroborated by the science that atheists will eventually fine tune to the point of finding that middle ground where the truth is buried.

Now I'll go take a look at your Third Possibility thread.

Edit: I couldn't find it. Could you link me to it?

Originally posted by Synarchy
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

Just read it, you will never re conciliate both camps.

Quite right. Unless Christians step up and do as Jesus indicartes they should.

Only I can judge God. I, is you, if you choose to be.

Using the term --- I am here means you. I do not mean me unless I am referring to myself and all I say applies to all of us. You are ( I ) to you as I am I to me. Only you then can judge the God construct that you see as you evaluate what you know of God.

Jesus said that at the end of days he would return. He meant in spirit only. Not a physical manifestation. He also said that the time of the end was at hand and that the temple of God was within each of us. The tern spirit represents, the spirit of the law, what is written in the hearts, ---- God in other words, ---- is defined as laws and rules and such as they are the only thing you can follow at all times, ---- and these are set by you and you are in effect ruling yourself in terms of following the God construct you have developed.

Jesus is telling you that you and your heart are the only things of importance in terms of leadership as it is the rules you have accepted as worthy of following. Jesus warned that at end times there would be a number of Jesus’ to choose from and morality is what you will have to choose from.

That is why I think it important to evaluate what Jesus said and determine if it is worthy and moral or not.

Jesus Christ. Madman or something worse.
www.youtube.com...

Below, Bishop Spong speaks of basically redefining Christianity. Going from a church or religious thinking, to a more spiritual or heart felt thinking. I also urge Christianity to change because it is now too immoral to ignore with today’s mentality. It’s overall policies are immoral in my view. The God of war must die and Jesus declared the full and only God that is required and that the noble lie of politics should be revoked to let all know that the God you likely know was always a myth. This may be a good time for you to contemplate such a move as many Christians haves rejected the O.T. God and only focus on Jesus and loving policies.

www.youtube.com...

Apotheosis means just recognizing that you are on a journey of being your own God. Some few will have help from God on this through a real apotheosis but only the very few it seems. You cannot get away from that fact so you may as well forget about fantasy, miracles and magic. They were never real and you are the strongest force you will ever know. After all, who but you can make you want to do anything voluntarily? There is no other force that can do this and therefore you are God in the real sense of being master of yourself. If that does not compute with you then remember that A & E became as Gods, God’s own words, and yours is the same birth rite. Throw it away if you wish. You cannot reject the knowledge of good and evil so I cannot fathom why you would throw away the fact that you as well can become as Gods.

The moral of Jesus and his sacrifice is that we should accept being God, and ruling ourselves even against a government if needs be. Become archetypal Moses and face government and declare that it faces one as great as itself. That is what being a free man is all about.

The time of the end is when Jesus becomes your God on earth, ---- again this is you, --- who takes the place of the mythical heavenly God of war. Jesus/you, as the way, the man’s way of judging first, not some absentee God’s unknown standard. Your covenant with yourself is to be the new covenant. Man answering to man and himself. Not to some unknown God.

This clip from J. Haidt shows that we instinctively share God’s morals. In this we are truly Gods and children of God.

blog.ted.com...

I am God because I am the only one who is capable of judging the God I know.
You are a God in your own rite as you are the only one who is capable of judging the God you know.

The noble lie is firmly in place and manipulating your thinking. Discard it. In this day and age we do not need it the way we may have in the past.

The Noble Lie.
www.youtube.com...

As a Gnostic Christian, this theology/philosophy is quite natural to me and can be for all people.

Try thinking as the God that you are. Stop being a sheep and rise to your true inheritance as a shepherd. That is the message Jesus wants you to recognize.

Regards
DL

P.S.
Listen to Jesus and hear for the first time in your life.
Ps 82:6 I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High.
Hosea 1:10 Ye are the sons of the living God.
Do you think that sons of God are destined to be sheep or shepherds?
Jesus was here to empower us. Not enslave us. Do not waste what he gave.

reply to post by Greatest I am

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by Synarchy
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

Just read it, you will never re conciliate both camps.

Quite right. Unless Christians step up and do as Jesus indicartes they should.

Only I can judge God. I, is you, if you choose to be.

I am not asking anyone to judge anything. I am not even asking anyone to believe in a higher power, but rather to recognize that we are all falling into the same trap by design. Perhaps we are biologically designed to fall prey to vanity...all the more reason we should learn to overcome it.

You don't think theists and atheists can be reconciled on the grounds of worldly need? You don't think a common goal - the well-being of the world and its inhabitants - is enough to bring both parties together as one force against the vanity that the elite has poisoned us with? I refuse to believe that. I have seen, throughout history, a variety of accomplishments that were regarded as equally dubious...only because those who doubted weren't willing to put forth the effort. They didn't consider it worthwhile, they were content to settle. Are you settling for the world as it is now? Are you so ready to admit defeat?

You don't believe it can be done. You believe it is theism or nothing. That's the impression I'm getting from you. You are willing to accept your own beliefs based on faith, but you are unwilling to accept my suggestions based on the same? Unwilling even to consider them?

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle

Originally posted by swan001
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

Nice thread.

I am an atheist who really searched (and still is) impartiality so I made a strong friendship with a christian preacher. So both camps can, ultimately, combine and find an equilibrium which is very reminding of the Truth... In fact, him and I are actually starting to think we got it.

I made a thread myself about the Third Possibility - the one in which christianism holds one half of the puzzle, and atheism holds the other half. once combined, you can guess what you get! A third point of view, which encompasses all of the puzzle.

The thruth is normaly somewhere in between 2 extreme viewpoints.

reply to post by apushforenlightment


Often have I said that mankind is a species of extremes. In fact, in that regard, we are truly an anomaly.

See, we find an ideal that we can relate to, and we fight to the extreme of it. That motion, that effort, gives life meaning, and that's what we look for, isn't it? Meaning. Motion is meaning, a vector, energy with a purpose. And yet, the whole time we are in motion, we are in motion as part of the fight to remain in place. Our motion is the fight to cling to tradition, to resist change, so we take tradition ever further, even so far as to oppress the free-thinkers.

You wonder why the world is in chaos? Because we are using the natural motion of the universe to fight the natural evolution of the universe, on a miniature scale. Have you ever driven forward as fast as you can while trying to stay in the same 20 foot circle? Going around in circles faster and faster because it feels like you're going somewhere, but you're not because you're too afraid of what lies around the next bend?

Picture it like this. A line of, say, sixty '1's in a complete unbroken circle. Anyone would look at it, choose just one of those '1's, and count around the circle until they reached the point they had started from. Easy enough. Now, imagine if, just like life, you only see a fragment, a section of that circle. You pick a 1 at random, and you begin counting, but you can only see one section at a time. They all are identical to your eye, and if you have no idea how big the circle is (just as we often lose perspective of how vast the universe really is) then you can pass the '1' you started out with a dozen times and never realize it. In that way, you find yourself counting to infinity because you never realize how far you've gone.

That is what life is. That's what we're doing. Going around in the same circle because we don't realize, or we choose to ignore how small it is. And we pass the same point, making the same mistakes, learning the same lessons and running into the same pitfalls again because we keep setting ourselves up. Only with each revolution, we have more technology and smarter people, and can therefore cause more damage. Eventually, you're going to swerve that car so hard in an attempt to break the loop that you roll it - and at that point, all bets are off, and any god will do as long as you can just make it out alive.

We're incredibly shortsighted for such an intelligent species, and our vanity only emphasizes that fact. This is the whole point of my thread, and I'm running out of ways to explain it to people who don't want to listen.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


reply to post by apushforenlightment

I wanted to retract something I said yesterday. In the end of "I Pet Goat II", a soul stands in the light. I said that he was waiting for fulfillment but I want to change that. The real light of day outside the cave lights his path for the first time. All the power of the shadow imagery fed to him by the controllers in the cave is broken. Now, outside for the first time he sees things how they really are. And that light will illuminate his path from now on.

I tried to find a link for it and I can't. Socrates was asked how he knew the "real" truth. Why was he so special that he could see what was right or wrong, good or bad? His answer was like this. I hope I got this right.

In the back of his mind there appears a kind of light that shines on issues he raises. These "thoughts" appear on a kind of blackboard and the light then shines on them and helps him to understand. He though the light was from outside himself. And the imagery was the best he could put into words. This light of "truth or wisdom" as he called it would show him what was true or false... or the right thing to do in any given moment, etc. No big deal, just a lamp unto our feet. Or the sun in the sky kind of symbology.

Not a lamp or light or sun in the physical sense, just a symbolic separate outside agency that gives us the simple knowledge of what to do and (mostly) what not to do. Thats it. I don't have that mastered yet by far. I don't know what the right thing to do is. I think I know what not to do. Like I used to do a lot of drugs, and I know I can't ever go back there. Even though it may seem attractive, (old times sake, once more, whatever) I know that for a fact I can never go back. Thats the light bouncing off that idea. Gee what a let down. And oh, by the way, thank you very much. Each time I resist I gain a little more strength to resist further. Its been years now and I try to remember to be grateful and also remember where I came from.

That may mean I will have to go back into the cave to help others. That will be hard. But I owe it to them to at least try. To give back what I got and help drag others up to the same light of day that I was shown? I keep telling my self I am not quite ready for that yet.

The symbology we use to inspire others Like "I Pet Goat II" is way below the mark. People think its neat or "enlightening", and then go back to whatever they were doing just like before. It is only symbolic of a life long journey that only actually begins with the ending of the cartoon. The end of the cartoon is the beginning of a new life.

Even more boring than before, because now we know the truth (very unpopular) and we are supposed to tell others and that can get you shunned or even harmed. Difficult road. Ends badly. You know if what you are doing, saying is working because people for the most part will shut that out... shut you out... shut you up.

Well okay, then. I think the other message is that the same light that guides you will be the agency to guide others when it is their time. We are just vehicles for that message to lay seeds at others door. Then it is out of our hands. Unless they ask.

Thats a pretty simple message of how to behave. One which is corrupted by the very agency (organized religion) that is supposed to impart it. And that coupled with the schooling, TV and our peers examples misguides us to adulthood and makes it near impossible to recover from. It is deeply ingrained in each of us, no matter which culture or religion we are raised in. Thats pretty powerful stuff. I am in conflict with both sides to this day.

Difference is now I see the difference. And try not to respond to emotion or like you said vanity, or pride. Hard to walk the path. I stumble down it.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

How does that happen? It's saddening. "Allegory of the Caves" is a perfect reflection of the world today. Did he see it coming? Did he know that it would happen? Perhaps we should have foreseen it. But what if we did? What if we didn't want to stop it? What if there was a reason that we not only blockaded the way to spirituality, but provided a wide selection of false religions to make us think there was nothing else to look for?

Is it because the way to spirituality is the way to power? Is it because we cannot be trusted with the secrets locked behind that door? Must we find humility before we can proceed? Vanity is our demon, our nature, our pitfall - the engine of our genius and our madness, our miracles and our tragedies - must we overcome it to find the light?

All really good questions... keep asking them. I may try later to come back and maybe answer some.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Greatest I am

 

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by Synarchy
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

Just read it, you will never re conciliate both camps.

Quite right. Unless Christians step up and do as Jesus indicartes they should.

Only I can judge God. I, is you, if you choose to be.

I am not asking anyone to judge anything. I am not even asking anyone to believe in a higher power, but rather to recognize that we are all falling into the same trap by design. Perhaps we are biologically designed to fall prey to vanity...all the more reason we should learn to overcome it.

You don't think theists and atheists can be reconciled on the grounds of worldly need? You don't think a common goal - the well-being of the world and its inhabitants - is enough to bring both parties together as one force against the vanity that the elite has poisoned us with? I refuse to believe that. I have seen, throughout history, a variety of accomplishments that were regarded as equally dubious...only because those who doubted weren't willing to put forth the effort. They didn't consider it worthwhile, they were content to settle. Are you settling for the world as it is now? Are you so ready to admit defeat?

You don't believe it can be done. You believe it is theism or nothing. That's the impression I'm getting from you. You are willing to accept your own beliefs based on faith, but you are unwilling to accept my suggestions based on the same? Unwilling even to consider them?

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle

edit on 9-10-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Vanity has nothing to do with my suggestion that people free themselves like Jesus did from the written word and follow their hearts. That is becoming more fully human. Atheist bitch because theists see themselves as special because they claim to follow a super God and Jesus can to tell them that there is no such thing and that God is within all of us. That is bringing both theists and atheists closer. That is your professed goal is it not?

Regards
DL

reply to post by AfterInfinity

...we've only gotten more and more self-absorbed.

How does that happen? It's saddening. "Allegory of the Caves" is a perfect reflection of the world today. Did he see it coming? Did he know that it would happen? Perhaps we should have foreseen it. But what if we did? What if we didn't want to stop it? What if there was a reason that we not only blockaded the way to spirituality, but provided a wide selection of false religions to make us think there was nothing else to look for?

It happens because the world, the "system" of the world, tears us from our family bosom at an early age and begins indoctrinating us to that system. In school we all sit in desks that are in a grid that face front to the authority (personage) of the teacher at their desk, flanked by the "flag".

Then on Sunday we all sit in pews and face front to the authority of the minister behind his "pulpit" and worship the "cross".

When we turn on the news we see the "news desk" and the authority there cuts to the politician standing behind a "podium" flanked by the same flag.

When we transgress the uniformed police take us before the judge who sits high up on his seat of authority flanked by a seal and the flag.

At the sports stadium we stand and salute the flag and cover our hearts with our hand. In the military we swear an oath to the country and the flag.

By this time in our lives we are enslaved to the system. Every time they want something they invoke these symbols of authority and show the flag and cross and podium. Someone tells us that in the name of God and country we must defend the flag. The authority has spoken. We must obey.

Who can resist? Not many. I think it has always been this way with the world. No matter what era or culture. The system remains the same. Trick is to learn to live in it, but not be of it. Not of the world. Not a product of that world.

Is it because the way to spirituality is the way to power? Is it because we cannot be trusted with the secrets locked behind that door? Must we find humility before we can proceed? Vanity is our demon, our nature, our pitfall - the engine of our genius and our madness, our miracles and our tragedies - must we overcome it to find the light?

Yes.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


It's not exactly a thread a bout the Third Possibility (me and my friend are still working on it) but more a thread about We Should Search For An Equilibrium And Stop Conflicting. I was exposing the conflict as a possible trigger for a civil war, as I came across news that US justice system was slowly condemning christianism.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by swan001
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

It's not exactly a thread a bout the Third Possibility (me and my friend are still working on it) but more a thread about We Should Search For An Equilibrium And Stop Conflicting. I was exposing the conflict as a possible trigger for a civil war, as I came across news that US justice system was slowly condemning christianism.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I did not comment at your other post but could have given this.
It advocates what you do.

blog.ted.com...

Regards
DL

reply to post by Greatest I am


Thanks, I'll check it out.

reply to post by intrptr


All the answers to life and the universe are sitting there, just waiting for the right question to be asked. Einstein himself all but says this.

reply to post by swan001


The trouble with such a union is that we suspect anyone who does not think the way we do, because we fear weakness in a struggle for change. Too often has a weak link proven to be the chink in the armor, the Achilles heel, and we become paranoid as we realize the variety of motivating factors that, at any time, could determine a division in the motion of the cause.

And division can mean death.

Personally, I see little difference between a man who changes the world for his children and a man who changes the world for his god. Both are expressions of love, and both are actions of necessity. Both are working toward a better end for all involved, and both are doin it not for themselves, but for something who's happiness makes them happy. That, to me, is one of the purest expressions of kindness one is likely to see from a human - and both theists and atheists are equally capable of displaying such compassion.

What frustrates me is seeing such potential as equally existent in both parties, and seeing them cut off their noses to spite one another, simply because they don't understand or can't agree to disagree. Again, vanity...vanity leads to pride, and pride prevents us from setting aside our self-serving instincts for the benefit of the community.

Many times, universal truth trumps personal truth - and we're just to vain too recognize it.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
Many times, universal truth trumps personal truth - and we're just to vain too recognize it.

That, my friend, is a truth...

reply to post by swan001


Any person who believes in a greater being, or a greater truth, will agree with my sentiment. However, what the exact details of their particular "greater truth" is what's questionable...

Personally, I see little difference between a man who changes the world for his children and a man who changes the world for his god. Both are expressions of love, and both are actions of necessity. Both are working toward a better end for all involved, and both are doin it not for themselves, but for something who's happiness makes them happy. That, to me, is one of the purest expressions of kindness one is likely to see from a human - and both theists and atheists are equally capable of displaying such compassion.

What frustrates me is seeing such potential as equally existent in both parties, and seeing them cut off their noses to spite one another, simply because they don't understand or can't agree to disagree. Again, vanity...vanity leads to pride, and pride prevents us from setting aside our self-serving instincts for the benefit of the community.

Many times, universal truth trumps personal truth - and we're just to vain too recognize it.

Have read your thread,everybodies replies and your frustration as some have missed not so much your message itself but the simplicity and elegance of it that clearly you see in it.

Truth often has a simplicity that is truly elegance.I often see it in egineering systems and solutions.I mean mechanical egineering,what I studied at college not some kind of social type or cultural/authoritarian manipulation.

i.e The camshaft or the fundemental pincipal of a carburettor,the simplicity has real elegance to it.

I find that real truth is usually simple and elegant too but when man starts to add his take,redifine it to bring it inline with his particular viewpoint ( a conciet
~ vanity ??) he makes it more and more complex.These added layers dilute and confuse the truth until the original point is completely buried.

Others have couched your point and responded defining it in terms of what they believe and that has seemed to cause you annoyance as the truth shouldnt need redifined.

If they add their own take then it appears,if I've understood it correctly,they've missed the point.

I'm an agnostic I'm used to be unsure whether there is a higher power and if there is what form it takes.

In the end I found I don't particularly care,it doesnt matter to me if there is or isnt a creator because we should be trying to make this life/this world better not fixating on a 'next' world.

I believe in humanity and people.That we have it in us to make a difference and change things,even if it seems by insignificant amounts,the point is to try and keep trying.

I try to help others the best I can.Not a do my bit and get my reward later kind of thing,there rarely is any tangible reward for putting others first and gain or hoping for some karmic reward seems based in notions of self too.

If we can get past the wörship of perfection/vanity/self and accept we are human/flawed/imperfect then we can begin to see that our differences are simply just points of view and not somebody thats got it wrong and needs correcting.

The essence of it goes like

If i'm right and cos i'm striving for perfection then i must be then you must be wrong but you being wrong shows me your not perfect and I'm not perfect.catch 22 ~ why vanity can't ever be the sölution.

Accept difference,conquer vanity and work together to try to improve the world/life and humanity ~ thats what I read as your message.A truth simple and elegant which I paraphrased here.


Hope I've not missed the point

reply to post by fastbob72


Yes and no. My point here was that we must learn that perfection is not what we think it is, and therefore vanity is a trap, in spite of everything we are taught in society today.

Re: OP

Very well spoken. I agree with a lot of what you are saying. As is so often the case on this site, especially in topics of religious discussion, you have described a state of mind I myself was in not too long ago. You are on the right path my friend! Your quote was Luke 18:22. Jesus said that. Jesus also said a lot of other things to help us on the path to righteousness, or "perfection" as you call it. "Judge not, lest ye be judged." This tells us that the path to righteousness lies within ourselves, not in pointing out flaws in others. "Love one another as I have loved you." This is truly the way to righteousness, for if we love one another, we give up fear and trust only in love. (Here I'd like to remind you of 1 John 4:16: "God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.")

Trusting in the divine is... difficult, to say the least. God works behind the scenes, so to speak, at least for now. His influence is simply all around us, yet so many choose to not see it, instead ascribing things to coincidence and chance. Do these things exist? Of course they do. If all things were so obviously God's will, in what way would we have free will? If God forced us to believe in him by an overwhelming display of control, would we be humbled or enraged? I for one would feel enslaved at being forced to serve my creator, if I didn't have a choice. But I chose to follow him, not because someone told me to or because I fear hell, but because I saw as you did that so many who live in fear have corrupted this world through their love of material things and fear of death. I wanted to live a better life. I wanted to live a life that at the end I could say "This is my life, and if I had to live it all again, I would change nothing, for I know I lived in love and the world was better for me having been here, of only for the people I care about." These are the things the bible pushes is toward. Anybody who says God hates is not of the spirit, for the Spirit IS God, and even throughout all of man's wickedness, God has striven with us because of his Spirit.

If there is anything I would have more people believe, it is that the Spirt of God is in all of us. We need only learn to listen and submit and all will be made clear. The great thing about this is, you don't need a religion or a bible to tell you what is right or wrong. The answer is already in all of us.

Edit: sorry for the typos. 99% of the time I'm posting via my iPhone.