"God" Defined: The Search For Divinity (All Members Welcome)

Be sure to read this entire post before replying. It is of great importance that you read every word. I can't promise you'll agree, but if you give me a chance, I might just blow your mind. Keep all discussion civil, please.




There's been a lot of threads lately between atheists and Christians, and I want both of you to listen up, just for the time necessary to read this post. Christians, you hold to the belief that the Bible holds the true definition of "God". Atheists, you don't agree. In fact, you don't believe there's a higher power to define. The modern definition is " omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, benevolent, merciful, etc. I don't agree with this, but wait! Don't reply just yet. Continue reading, and all will be made clear...I hope. Clear your minds of preconceptions and judgments on the tips of your tongues - forget what you want to say, forget what you think you know, just listen with an open mind. Or read, rather. Whatever.

So that's our definition of a god, right? Oh no, the modern religious have REDEFINED it. I have the same contention with their definition, but just because someone keep spoiling the stew, doesn't mean there isn't perfectly good stew out there somewhere.

You've missed the definition because you have preconceptions. And those parameters you've set have filtered out the true divinity of the universe. I can't explain it completely because it would take two and a half threads to connect as many dots as I can, and you would still disagree because you want the definition to suit your parameters. It doesn't matter how you feel about it, that's how it is.

With that said, both Christians and atheists are fools because they are forcing the world to fit their ideas, instead of allowing the world to shape their understanding. You are partial. And so you will not understand. A neutral point of view is necessary, otherwise you only understand what you want to.

My point here being, mankind only defined what already existed using its clumsy intellect. That clumsy intellect is what you see, not the essence being defined. Give mankind a few thousand years to either get smarter or kill itself off, and you'd see what I'm talking about. Humans have tarnished your understanding, and all the further communication you get from them will only tarnish it more. I'm doing it even as I type this, and I can only hope that you can get the impression I'm attempting to convey. Words are an extremely inconvenient medium, because I think in "impressions", ideas without words.


Again, any communicate idea is man-made. With that communication comes a definition, and that definition is a mobile impression of a explicit knowledge. It's like pushing your hand in some clay to make a mold. Nothing that comes out of that mold will look exactly like your hand, but someone looking at it will recognize what it's supposed to be.

When we say "God", we're using that mold which has been reworked in order to achieve someone's ideal of "THIS is what a god should be!" and we ran with it. Unfortunately, we have no idea what a god should be, and as a species that goes, "GIMME GIMME GIMME GIMME I WANT I WANT I WANT", our deity reflects our collective nature. Which is why, should I open a dictionary and look up the word 'vanity', I fully expect to see a picture of "God" right next to it. Self-entitlement, pride, and delusional tyranny.

And it's all based in fear. Recognition of the darkness inside, and fear that if we don't use it first, someone else will and rob us of our happiness. The darkness has too many expressions to be completely safe from it, and we know that. That's why "God" is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent: it's a complete loop without flaw, every single possibility of darkness closed out. It's what we wish we could be, and that's why we worship it. We worship our idea of perfection, the utter lack of fear, and that's why we're fools with the potential to become wise. Unfortunately, we're more intent on demonizing ourselves for not yet having attained that perfection, than we are on resolving that lack of perfection. Simply put, we're whipping ourselves for our perceived crimes and doing penitence instead of drawing a plan for resolving the whole issue. That's as close as I can get to defining the nature of the current deity, and that's as close as I need to get, I think.

Atheist, Christians, all of you who do or do not believe in a higher power: this is the purpose of religion, to help us realize our first and foremost flaw - vanity, otherwise known as the search for perfection. Perfection that we have labeled 'divinity', because (again) of our clumsy intellect. We see divinity as perfection, and we see perfection as...well, it differs with everyone. Usually something pleasing, mainly concerned with external stimuli because that's what we've been taught to focus on. I'll get into that later. But let me put some context in this vanity deal: original sin wasn't disobeying a deity...it was discovering right and wrong, and allowing ourselves the ability to recognize the idea of perfection. In that moment, we began that journey. Our first sin was vanity. We kill each other every day because we see things in everyone that remind us that we're not perfect, and it drives us crazy. We are reminded of how we ourselves are imperfect. That's what "Satan" is - the temptation to give in to the search for perfection.

But what is perfection? Desire. Wanting. The moment you stop wanting, is the moment you reach perfection. Do you ever wonder why a perfectionist is so hard to please? Because physical reality is flawed - FOR THAT VERY REASON. To teach us that perfection is not of the flesh, it's of something that is much more valuable. There are men who sit in caves with a bread crust, wearing a few rags, and they are the most content people on the planet....because they don't want anything.

"Sell your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven." Who said that? Remind me, please. What do you think he was trying to say? If you search for perfection, you'll find it in the most surprising of places, the most surprising of faces. But it's a long and very difficult road.

All of your little conspiracies surround this idea. THINK ABOUT IT!! Every conspiracy is engineered to remind us of the brevity of life, of the importance of money, so we need to SPEND SPEND SPEND so we can SURVIVE SURVIVE SURVIVE!!! All the importance is placed on how short life is, so we forget about the important things and focus on material possessions, on amassing wealth to create status. We are being herded away from the ultimate truth, and being encouraged to find that perfection.

This is the Dummies version of what I just realized, the great eureka moment that blasted to the front of my mind. This is the truth I have been looking for, or one of those truths. One of the bigger pieces of the puzzle. It's the missing link. The problem. The reason we are such a flawed species when we could be so much more.

Now you see. Now you can begin to make the change. BECOME the change. Be what you want to see in the world. You've had a look at the great sin, now begin to rectify it. Where you go from here, what you choose to believe or choose to take solace in, that's up to you. I just wanted to show you all what I had realized. I'm not trying to make atheists and theists kiss and make up or anything - if anything, I would make a third camp for those who are willing to be open, and both the worshipers and nonbelievers can come together and join hands for the cause of healing the world. You don't have to be exactly the same or have the same reasons, all that's required in the desire to work together for a similar end. it doesn't have to end like that, but it's a good idea, and if anything, that's what I'd like to see from this eureka moment. Fruit that keeps giving. And somewhere in there, is a sparkling diamond of truth, I'm certain. Take it or leave it. But just ask yourselves one question: if you reject the premise on which this thread was constructed, if you say I'm wrong and you, the reader, are right and you know more than I do about such things, ask yourselves: is that vanity talking?


Think about it.

Tldr

God is real, Darwin proved it.

reply to post by Synarchy


If you're not going to read it, then don't reply. All further participants, please be civil in this discussion. This thread means a lot to me and I hope to promote some very thoughtful insights in response to my eureka moment. I want to bring fruit from this tree.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Just read it, you will never re conciliate both camps.

reply to post by Synarchy


I wouldn't mind providing a third camp that both can appreciate and join if they have the humility to stand one another's company. I doesn't have to work out that way, however - simply introducing this idea does for a great start. I'm still reeling from it, myself.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Your premise is biased from your personal beliefs.

exemple :

But what is perfection? Desire. Wanting. The moment you stop wanting, is the moment you reach perfection. Do you ever wonder why a perfectionist is so hard to please?

What if to me, perfection is achieved through financial success? That in order to reach perfection I must be able to consume whatever I please whenever I please with zero concerns to any human living.

How can I accept what you are saying if we fundamentally disagree on the meaning of this single word. And that is just one out of many.

reply to post by Synarchy


That's vanity. Exactly my point. This society is built upon vanity, and vanity will be its goal. You can dress it up in pretty wrappings and nice little bows all you want, but underneath it all: vanity.

How can I accept what you are saying if we fundamentally disagree on the meaning of this single word. And that is just one out of many.

Your mind is fast closing on my words, like an iron door locked tight before the sick and needy. If that's how you feel, then there's nothing more for us to say to one another. Have a good day.

Truth is by definition exclusive.

That's why there can be no "neutral point of view".

You either believe that God is what/who He says He is or you don't.

Would you call me ignorant if I said that you needed to drink water to survive? It's simply true.

IF the God of the Scriptures IS the sovereign Creator of the universe than we Christians are merely stating a truth. He cannot both be non-extant and exist. Similarly, the two camps will never be unified in belief but they CAN be unified in respect.

reply to post by followtheevidence


How about unified in need? I realize you are responding strictly to the title here, but you seem to have missed a lot of the other things that I brought into play here.

Interesting post and certainly worth a reply. We must understand whether our God stands as our creator or our benevolence (god is very similar to "Good") or both or neither.

For me personally, evil represents my emotional brain - hard wired to get me out of trouble and react through my emotions whereas god represents the higher brain that thinks logically, and gives me the higher sense of self (a buddhist view I know).

The emotional side of the brain has been around for millions of years, is hard wired into the muscles to make fight or flight happen and is very mature. The higher logical part is very new and so the old part is always in competition with the new (your "head" - new or your "heart" - old). It is these battles that represent good and evil (in my opinion), that we as humans have always felt.

There is also (against to me) a multi million question that Christians and Atheists both need to ask - Why is religion so important for humans (Christianity and islam are comparatively new religions in comparison to the many mythologies before)

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Well it was a dense post; a lot to reply to. I thought it reasonable to respond to the crux of the matter.

reply to post by followtheevidence


Well, let's put it this way: no deity has ever appeared to me and said, "This is me. Take it or leave it." I've always ever gotten my certainties from man, and if man proves to be deceitful, then all of his products must be flawed to some degree as well.

This includes the Bible, especially since it's a source of power and influence. Given the history of our race, why would we ever trust men with something so powerful? Why should we believe it hasn't already been corrupted? That, in my mind, is an unreasonable assumption, and potentially hazardous to the mental health of everyone exposed.

I'm not saying it's evil or anything like that. I'm saying we should reevaluate the pros and cons, the potential damage versus the hopefully benefits. And the deciding variable is the nature of mankind, who has been charged with controlling it. See my point?

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I like it Op.... and agree, however don't expect others too. Its your experience.

Listen to this... your post made me think of it. Your revelation of Vanity was totally meant just for you.

Happy for ya and congrats on experiencing an aw moment.

Im glad you shared it!

I commend you on coming to a deeper understanding as it is progression toward the ONE. There are deeper understandings yet to come and this understanding will begin to fade as the focus of understanding becomes clearer. You like some are climbing the rungs of the true ladder of life, not bound by physical existence and words as you stated in your post. Words are Human titles to convey understanding and not always do they convey a clear understanding as was the impressions. You have found truth, but it is important to know that as with any truth it must be brought into focus in order to see the whole understanding is but another piece to another puzzle or understanding be it a simpler understanding or a more defined understanding. Such is the fractal reality we call life.

Originally posted by Agarta
I commend you on coming to a deeper understanding as it is progression toward the ONE. There are deeper understandings yet to come and this understanding will begin to fade as the focus of understanding becomes clearer. You like some are climbing the rungs of the true ladder of life, not bound by physical existence and words as you stated in your post. Words are Human titles to convey understanding and not always do they convey a clear understanding as was the impressions. You have found truth, but it is important to know that as with any truth it must be brought into focus in order to see the whole understanding is but another piece to another puzzle or understanding be it a simpler understanding or a more defined understanding. Such is the fractal reality we call life.

You are making them seek understanding themselves and leaving peices of the puzzle for them to get it. But it is hilarious from my point of view when you understand why you use the words you use. ONE more piece: Why is god omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient?

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Nice thread, I like it very much. I was in my religions class, discussing the scriptures of Buddhism, and I found a trait that is heavily emphasized in a sect of Buddhism (I forget the specfic sect) that Christianity and the rest of the religions of the world need today; that trait is INSIGHT.

How does this Buddhist sect emphasize insight? Well apparently this sect of Buddhism teaches that the scripture of the religion helps in guiding you to Nirvana, but you shouldn't necessarily be so attached to it, because if you were so attached to the preconception that the scripture is the only way to Nirvana then it would defeat the sole purpose of the religion and that is to break attachment.

Good post again. +S

Originally posted by followtheevidence
Truth is by definition exclusive.

That's why there can be no "neutral point of view".

You either believe that God is what/who He says He is or you don't.

Would you call me ignorant if I said that you needed to drink water to survive? It's simply true.

IF the God of the Scriptures IS the sovereign Creator of the universe than we Christians are merely stating a truth. He cannot both be non-extant and exist. Similarly, the two camps will never be unified in belief but they CAN be unified in respect.

edit on 6-10-2012 by followtheevidence because: (no reason given)

Respect comes when both camps have some merit - some verifiable, reliable information, even just a sliver of fact. Faith in an all knowing, all powerful, invisible being who created the whole universe and who lives in another dimension called heaven; who is all merciful, but has killed off everyone and everything except Noah's family (a handful of family members that spread their DNA so thin that mankind would've died off). Well, not only is there not even a sliver of evidence, but is utterly ridiculous while being impossible.

I can respect Christians for wanting to be good humans, but I cannot respect their absurd beliefs.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


You are describing the will to give and receive over the will to take. Like I have said for a few years now on ATS, if you smoke, you get cancer. This is because you took a reward that was not earned first. This brings suffering and debt. If you suffer on purpose instead, you gain reward. Suffering the work to gain reward is the entire meaning of life. I have been saying it over and over again here and it goes on deaf ears and blind eyes. Work a job and reward follows. These are merely examples of the same law of returns.

Why would a person sell all he has and give to the poor? Simple. The gift that is given must first be earned. Work a job and receive a paycheck. Your family then receives the reward with you. This is because true reward can be given away. Jesus said it 500 years after Buddha stated that suffering could be eliminated. It can, yet this falls short of the meaning of life. Know Buddha by his fruit. He left his family and kids to end suffering under a tree. Instead, suffering is the point. Either you suffer the debt of what is taken or you suffer forward for the reward.

Can you hear me?

reply to post by AfterInfinity


With that said, what do you do when you sell something? Did Jesus say to sell all your possessions and give to the poor? To sell, you transfer good or services to others. With this, you generate the reward you give away. This has nothing to do with poverty or removing yourself from the goodness God provides from hard work. It has everything to do with how you transfer your goods and services (Fruit of Gifts) to others.

Think on this.

Smoke and you get cancer. The debt caused by taking the reward for yourself brings suffering. Instead, suffer on purpose. Suffer the work to gain the reward and what you have can be transferred to others as the gift you give. Work a job and your family eats.

This gets us back to what God intends and demonstrates. Give and receive only. Never take. What does the average family man and woman do each day of the week? They suffer loss for the reward of others. No gift can be given unless it is first earned.

What does the average hardworking Christian family do? They honor the bond of marriage and work hard to provide for their family. What is earned is then transferred to their family as the reward of labor and the toil of raising a family. Salvation comes to the mother in this manner.

1 Timothy 2

13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

"They" are the children. A mother that raises children who are faithful, loving, holy and possessing moral propriety will be saved by the labor of what she gives. What of the man? Who stands at the entrance of the tent to protect the family?

The first letter is the (aleph - A), a picture of an ox. As the ox is strong, the letter also has the meaning of strong. The second letter, (bet - B), is the picture of the tent or house where the family resides. When combined these letters form the word AB meaning "the strength of the house" and represents the "father."

The first letter is the (aleph - A), a picture of an ox. As the ox is strong, the letter also has the meaning of strong. The second letter, (mem - M) representing water. The two letters give us the meaning of "strong water." The Hebrews made glue by boiling animal skins in water. As the skin broke down, a sticky thick liquid formed at the surface of the water. This thick liquid was removed and used as a binding agent - "strong water". This is the Hebrew word AM meaning "mother", the one who "binds" the family together.

Father is the OX

Buddha / Dhammapada

Chapter 1 - Choices

We are what we think.
All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts we make the world.
Speak or act with an impure mind
And trouble will follow you
As the wheel follows the ox that draws the cart.

The Ox is pulls the cart. The Wheel is the circle of life. "You must be born again." The Cart is the burden of raising the next generation. How well does the Father raise his next generation? What you give is what you get.

So, is works how we earn salvation? No. Faith and God's Grace is how we gain salvation as the gift God gives. The part I list above is the part that reflects the name we take. A name is character. Taking the name requires the character or faith is dead.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


You inspired a thread: LINK