Chinese hackers have control of US power grid

reply to post by CIAGypsy

20 years ago it wasn't state sponsored.

Yes it was.

20 years ago, it was a bunch of kids out there seeing how far they could get or even geeky cyber criminals who figured out how to get credit card info or new identities.

Really?

Tell that to the Russians!

Do you realise that in the early 80's the Americans and the Russians(amongst others, most notably the Brit's) had cyber armies at the time?

I'm not talking about 20 years ago when we were lamenting over our flashy CPU's with maths co-processors or
14KB/s modems. I'm talking about the late 70's and early 80's when 4004's and 8088's were buzzwords amongst nerdy folk and digital watches were still a toy for the wealthy.

It wasn't cyber armies who were hired specifically to write malicious code, hack into systems to take control of them, and gain access to foundational source code which is much more valuable than a credit card number.

Yes they did. In fact, a lot of the code used by the early hackers was stolen from military "organisations" - some have speculated that some things were purposefully leaked to thwart the other side.

reply to post by OccamAssassin


Da! Ya znayu vse o russkikhs....

However, you answered it exactly - those were part of a military operation. Nothing on a large scale that targeted private industry in the country as a whole, in a highly coordinated attack, with the intent of crippling the country. Finish that thought where it can go.....

You think TPTB are unaware? This is news to them? Who was it that crashed computers in Iran's nuclear facility? Do you think we cannot do the same to China? It is just another pissing contest. I don't get where the surprise is coming from OP.

Originally posted by CIAGypsy
reply to post by Zarniwoop

 

Granted, they have not SHUT DOWN the power grid. I would even give you the argument that they haven't gained full control of the power grid.

But they are storming the gates..... Not just with the energy sector, but banking, chemical companies, phone networks, and more.

Hackers unlock prison cell locks?

Originally posted by Iamschist
You think TPTB are unaware? This is news to them? Who was it that crashed computers in Iran's nuclear facility? Do you think we cannot do the same to China? It is just another pissing contest. I don't get where the surprise is coming from OP.

#1. There IS NO "TPTB" and that is not what this thread is about.

#2. No surprise here. Just informing the mainstreamers of what is happening under their very nose.

Originally posted by CIAGypsy
reply to post by OccamAssassin

 

Da! Ya znayu vse o russkikhs....
However, you answered it exactly - those were part of a military operation.

Sheesh!

We've gone from cyber armies have only been around for 7 years.....to.....kids were the only ones hacking in the 80's to .....yeah there were cyber armies in 80's but they were military(according to you)....so they don't count?

Are you 13?

Originally posted by CIAGypsy

Originally posted by Iamschist
You think TPTB are unaware? This is news to them? Who was it that crashed computers in Iran's nuclear facility? Do you think we cannot do the same to China? It is just another pissing contest. I don't get where the surprise is coming from OP.

#1. There IS NO "TPTB" and that is not what this thread is about.

#2. No surprise here. Just informing the mainstreamers of what is happening under their very nose.

There is no TPTB ?

I think you are the one who is being mislead with false info.

I actually think many agents in the alphabet agencies are being fed bullcrap, same as in the military.

Not sure if you actually work for the CIA, but if you do.. sounds like you are just a pawn for them.

Originally posted by CIAGypsy

Originally posted by Iamschist
You think TPTB are unaware? This is news to them? Who was it that crashed computers in Iran's nuclear facility? Do you think we cannot do the same to China? It is just another pissing contest. I don't get where the surprise is coming from OP.

#1. There IS NO "TPTB" and that is not what this thread is about.

#2. No surprise here. Just informing the mainstreamers of what is happening under their very nose.

Well in a technical sense, anyone who is in charge of a group of other people are The Powers the Be..

So there you have it, the Government is technically the Powers that Be..

Originally posted by OccamAssassin
reply to post by adjensen

 

Why critical computers that control things like air traffic control or the power grid are on networks that are connected to the Internet boggles the mind.

The systems are (generally) not connected to the internet. Usually the hackers connect directly to the systems via their internal networks. In the old days....a dialer would be set up to systematically call a range of phone numbers until a computer was found.....then the type of system and potential entry points can be identified.

The military works the same. Critical systems only run on dedicated networks.

Can you imagine the ramifications if a hacker were able to take control of a drone?

Yes, just watch the movie Live Free or Die Hard starring Bruce Willis.

We planned ahead.

Originally posted by OccamAssassin

Originally posted by CIAGypsy
reply to post by OccamAssassin

 

Da! Ya znayu vse o russkikhs....
However, you answered it exactly - those were part of a military operation.

Sheesh!

We've gone from cyber armies have only been around for 7 years.....to.....kids were the only ones hacking in the 80's to .....yeah there were cyber armies in 80's but they were military(according to you)....so they don't count?

Are you 13?

Let me put it in simple terms. No one said or alluded that hacking has only been around 7 years. What I said is that it was not state sponsored like it has become in the past 7 years. Yes, the military did have operations which involved stealing code. But what you did NOT have was the type of large scale attacks which include both the private and public sector like you see today. That's like saying someone who egg'd your front door once is the same level of "attack" as the army who showed up with an egg-pelting gaitlan gun, a egg launcher, a few trebuchets on the side. (Note, I'm trying to inject some humor but you get the point).

Whether you want to believe it or admit it, the dynamic has changed and the implications of it is mind-blowing to the way we have dealt with acts of aggression in the past. We are not the only country suffering in the crossfire. It's no secret that Obama and others are looking to sign directives to make cyber terrorism an act of war. The UN wants to put international laws in place to deal with the problem on a global level. If these acts of hacking IN THIS TYPE OF MANNER have been so widespread and common for 20 years, you'd have seen this type of reaction a decade ago.

U.S. official says cyberattacks can trigger self-defense rule

Chinese Official Gains Oversight Of UN Internet Governance Forum

Harold Koh on International Law in Cyberspace

Well they are not doing a very good job of shutting us down..The country seems to be rolling along just fine

Originally posted by chiefsmom
Oh please please please, won't they just shut us down?

Many Romans welcomed invading barbarians during the fall of Rome...

reply to post by chiefsmom


Shutting us down, in what aspects? Power grids are vital to functioning of society, important parts have back up emergency power (nuclear plants, flight towers, hospitals, etc). Shutting us down could mean many bad things for very many people. Unless it was a systematic shut down, with warning given in advance, to display control and power. Then we would have to give into their demands, and who knows where that leads to...

reply to post by adjensen


because of emails.

they're to lazy to actually pick up the phone and contact the person.

and how do you know that they haven't infiltrated a utility company.

for all we know it could be a janitor cleaning the offices at night.

you want to get into the offices of any major corporation, find out who does the vacuuming at night and join the company. they won't even ask you for your social security no. 99.9% of them who do the actual work are illegal immigrants.

then you'll have free unsupervised access of the whole building.

power grids are run by private enterprises and corporations. no one gives a **** unless their paycheck is late.

Way to sensationalize the article. No...chinese hackers do not have control of the US power grid. Please stop giving people misleading information. No...hackers in general will never control the power grid, maybe small sections of it, but not all of it. I think many of you are uninformed about the US's military power and might when it comes to technology.....the US literally blows every country out of the water with its technology, they're ahead of the game by decades. What comes in the news, only comes after many many years of being classified and hush hush. No power company buy computers from dell or what not. No power company have computers that monitor the system connected to the internet, they use their own intranet and even then there is so much security to go through. By the time you end up getting in, their cyber security would find and arrest you.

reply to post by adjensen

Originally posted by adjensen
Why critical computers that control things like air traffic control or the power grid are on networks that are connected to the Internet boggles the mind. If they need to be on a WAN, make it a private one that only connects to the outside world through a sneaker-net.

This is not a practical solution for the types of companies that operate things like interstate pipelines/powergrids, and that is the majority of companies (at least the large ones that matter) using SCADA (Supervisory Control And Data Acquistions) systems. This is essentially what we are talking about.

These companies are not in the bussiness (or haven't been) of putting fiber in the ground along with their pipelines/power lines to support communcation/operation across hundres or thousands of miles.

VPNs across Public WANs and secure firewalls are what you end up with.

These can be very secure. There is plenty of technology and know how to prevent any unwanted access to control systems, and still have the flexibility to shift control operations from your primary control center to your Disaster Recover control center located hundreds of miles away...

I know this first hand.

But, honestly, nothing is fool proof. Not even cutting the line...

. Odds are that you haven't even begun to consider the implications.

reply to post by CIAGypsy


Odds are, then, perhaps, you misjudge your audience....
Some of us are well aware that we live in an environment where unlike, non similar things, events and people are linked via technology and other methods, so that the same technology can be used as you illustrate with your information, to destroy. Much of the information, if taken to the end of its spectrum, found on this site, is meant to provide just how many ways this is done.
Parallel cloud tagging, anyone???? Even just metaphorically speaking, in the scenario I suggest.
Good info, in your OP.

Cyber stuff has very much been at the forefront of my mind this week.

First, there was the online drama Cybergeddon, I wrote a thead about it Here, for anyone who is interested. I think it is very likely such an attack could occur, sending us back to early 70's.

Having said that, whilst in the hairdressers yesterday, I was sat next to this woman, didn't catch everything she was spilling to the hairdresser (like they would care ?!), but she does some sort of work from home, I think involving sentencing of individuals, obviously I didn't speak to her, I was eavesdropping, anyway, she said that she has an ethernet cable, which if anyone with WI-FI comes within 10 feet, the connection cuts out, so as to protect the computer from being compromised. Apaarently this is a standard government thing, she was saying that she gets a call if the failsafe is ever triggered, and that the only time it happens is when her son comes into the room she is working in with his mobile.

I'm in the UK, perhaps someone can elaborate on what I have heard ?

And then I see this lovely thread, you know after having watched Cybergeddon, it has made me think, perhaps the biggest threat to society would be the total collapse of the internet, we have become so dependent on it, its actually quite scary, it's like being enslaved by nought's and one's.

Originally posted by CIAGypsy
Welcome to the new battleground.

Reporting for duty.

It is a new battleground for sure, and this ain't your grandpappy's war- not by a long shot. What the Chinese (and a lot of other interests, unfortunately) have discovered is that all you need to bring a heavily urbanized population to its knees is to strike in such a way as to cause maximum systems disruption.

See, all our resources and energy are concentrated into centralized nodes, and that creates a high degree of vunerability.

The solution, in this instance, lies in diversifying the power grid into a vast multitude of nodes, rendering it much more robust and resistant to attack.

How do we go about this?

Single household vertical wind turbines.

Compact, durable, $5000 dollars, plus the installation fee, these little puppies kick out enough wattage to provide for daily power usage, even when the wind dips below 9 knotts per hour.

Incentivize the hell out of it, and it would still be cheaper than coping with what the Chinese may be planning to throw our way.



Oh, and I forgot to mention: we get on production and implementation skippy enough, and we could start exporting the tech abroad, reaping insane dividends. Hell, why not corner the new energy market altogether? Eat that, China.

Originally posted by CIAGypsy
reply to post by OccamAssassin

 

Doesn't matter that systems aren't connected to the internet. They are getting crafty and finding the modern day trojan horse.....

Malware inserted on PC production lines

Cybercriminals have opened a new front in their battle to infect computers with malware - PC production lines.

Several new computers have been found carrying malware installed in the factory, suggests a Microsoft study

They can infect anything with a circuit board that may get connected to a network - copiers, scanners, cameras, keyboard, mouse, you name it.....

Why is it that all these big name anti viral programs like Mc Afee don't have Anti Malware software built in it? A lot of web servers offer free programs which run automatically to isolate suspect links, but unless you manually download say, MalwareBytes for free, you still need to download updates and run the program to catch problems and by then its too late to offset the attack. So frustrating!

It's an ongoing ghost war and considering the way america deal with foreign countries, I wouldn't be surprised the US were the 1st to attack / hack China in some ways, and multiple other countries. US enemies are usually acting in way of defence if nothing else. I have nothing against america but if you look in the grand scheme of things, this is what they do