NEWS: 17 U.S Reservists Arrested In Iraq. U.S Military Deny Arrests.

War is hell. True soldiers don't pick and choose which orders to follow. Ask the guys who landed at Omaha Beach - oops can't ask a lot of them - they died to liberate our "good friends and Allies" the Vichy French.

But then again, these guys from South Carolina obviously are not real soldiers - just weekend warriors who had their bluff called. It�s time to get that trash out of the mix. They committed a crime against all the men who have made the ultimate sacrifice - just the same as if they spit in their faces and those of their wives, mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers and children. Those cowards don't deserve to wear the uniform. They should have their US Citizenship rights stripped from them and spend some long hard time in the Fed.

It may be time to draw on another historic and very effective approach. Any of you kids know what happened when the Roman Legions lost a battle to Spartacus in southern Italy back in 73BC? Look up the word decimate.

The only thing troops have to count on in combat is the support of their fellow soldiers. When they put themselves above the team then they have acted treasonously - they have abandoned you to die - THEY have sentenced you to never have a chance to see YOUR family again. They have taken the side of those who would destroy us all. The only honorable, sane action is to stick together so that ALL have a chance - not just a few who lost their nerve and hid in the corner while those they swore to protect are left to flounder. That kind of supreme trust cannot be violated with impunity.

True Americans would have found a way to complete the mission. All we have over here is hearsay. None of us were there.

However, one thing is clear:

Our only viable option is to prosecute the war with extreme prejudice. Diplomacy failed after 12 years, 14 ignored UN resolutions and billions of dollars in Oil for Food money bribing three of the five permanent members of the UN Security Council. Talk is cheap. Freedom is not.


[edit on 15-10-2004 by rsaunders]

[edit on 15-10-2004 by rsaunders]

Originally posted by rsaunders
War is hell. True soldiers don't pick and choose which orders to follow. Ask the guys who landed at Omaha Beach - oops can't ask a lot of them - they died to liberate our "good friends and Allies" the Vichy French.

But then again, these guys from South Carolina obviously are not real soldiers - just weekend warriors who had their bluff called. It�s time to get that trash out of the mix. They committed a crime against all the men who have made the ultimate sacrifice - just the same as if they spit in their faces and those of their wives, mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers and children. Those cowards don't deserve to wear the uniform. [edit on 15-10-2004 by rsaunders]

Wow, that's tough talk coming from someone sitting Stateside behind a keyboard. Did you have to face down the alpha radiation from your monitor to type that? That must have taken some nerve. Maybe you should go to Iraq and deliver fuel without an escort, and then comment on weekend warriors being cowards.

Originally posted by longbow
Reservists delivering supplies or not, they are soldiers - MERCENARIES -paid for risking their lives, period.

Care to clarify that statement ? From my seat here it appears that you just slandered U.S soldiers by labeling them mercenaries. If that is the case, I have an issue with you, to put it mildly. Shame someone like you wouldn't have a clue, as no doubt you have never served. Why don't you just sit back and continue to let OTHERS protect you...I would say more, but you do a fine job of embarrasing yourself without any further input. I do suggest however, that you drive to your nearest military base and make your views known... I'm sure you can find someone to accomodate you...

[edit on 15-10-2004 by TCR]

Yes, You have to wonder do any of these people that are talking sh.....t ever served in the military. You tell me how many soldiers that are in supply have the training and weapons to fight off insurgents that know the terrain and that are equipped with AK-47's and RPG's. With no Infantry support or MP escorts to cover their asses. Also the guys and gals are hauling fuel. Hmmm easy targets. I'll tell you if I was in their position I sure the heck won't want to go with no support, it would be a suicide mission. I would also like to say that there are alot of good fighters in supply so don't get me wrong on the training part.

Right-on, Friday1212

Originally posted by taibunsuu
Wow, that's tough talk coming from someone sitting Stateside behind a keyboard. Did you have to face down the alpha radiation from your monitor to type that?

Nope - use a plasma screen, Mme. Propagandist. Truth is tough. Get over it.
Don't worry though. If your socialist pal Kerry gets elected he'll "make it all better". Remember - he has a plan!

-check out www.getoverit.org for details

[edit on 15-10-2004 by rsaunders]

[edit on 16-10-2004 by rsaunders]

[edit on 16-10-2004 by rsaunders]

OK..lets gets some things straight here:

1) Even though they are RESERVISTS, they still have to follow the chain of command. From what I understand, they were U.S. ARMY RESERVISTS, therefore under the command of the U.S. Army.

2) In being under the Army's jurisdiction, they have to follow DIRECT ORDERS. In case you all forgot, its part of being in the military - following orders despite personal feelings.

3) WTF is with the people saying "I don't blame them" or "they are right to stand up for themselves" - Seriously wtf? OK, if you are in the Military at all, you don't have rights like everyone else, you VOLUNTEERED to do that, you need to take orders. You can't just refuse to do missions because THEY ARE DANGEROUS. Hello, that usually happens during a war!

I say hang 'em high, we don't need cowards like them citing "it's too dangerous" in a f*****g WAR ZONE. Idiots.

-wD

*edit* Oh, and don't give me "You never were there, don't say who is cowardly and who isn't", because that, my friends, is simply untrue. I served 4 years in the U.S. Marine Corps, Semper Fi! God bless 'em all! In fact, I have been involved in enemy ambushes and the like, and, personally, I say this:

If you volunteer into the military, no matter what branch, and then refuse to fight when needed, because it is too dangerous? We don't need you. Get the hell out and don't let the door hit 'ya on the way.

-wD

[edit on 16-10-2004 by WeBDeviL]

Originally posted by longbow
Reservists delivering supplies or not, they are soldiers - MERCENARIES -paid for risking their lives, period.

Race car drivers are paid to drive fast and risk their lives. Do you think any of them would get into a car if they were told to drive without any brakes?

Its easy for all you keyboard warriors to talk tough but youre all dumb if you would blindly obey any order no matter how stupid, thats brainwashing IMO.

After all the soldiers at Abu Ghraib were just following orders right?

Originally posted by longbow
Reservists delivering supplies or not, they are soldiers - MERCENARIES -paid for risking their lives, period.

MERCENARIES............................................, Are you on CRACK ??????????? Where in GOD's name did you come up with that propaganda about our US Reservists,........... good god .

Our Reservists are NOT mercenaries, they are people called-up by our Gov't to serve, and a lot of them DON"T even want to be there, and the "pay" isn't all that it's cracked-up to be .


I don't blame those 17 Reservists in the least bit for dis-obeying that order, only a "fool and his life" would soon be dead, following an order like that.
They are right in what they did,.......... so what if they get into serious trouble,................. at least THEIR ALIVE !!!!!!!!!!!!

Like I said and showed the URL in my thread "CRUDE DUDES", this war is all about the oil,........... the WMD's was some made-up BS as the "excuse" that was given to invade Iraq,............. That whole bunch in the oval-office and their family members should be forced to go to Iraq to serve and die, just as our family members have been.

The Commander needs to be the one "locked-up" and charged for trying to put 17 Reserve soldiers lives in danger.



The situation during Occupation of Iraq 2003 � shows how difficult it is to define what a mercenary is. While the United States governed the country any U.S. citizen who worked as a armed guard could not be called a mercenary because they were a national of a Party to the conflict (APGC77 Art 47.d). With the handover of power to the interim Iraqi government it could be argued that unless they declare that they are a resident in Iraq ie a resident of territory controlled by a Party to the conflict (APGC77 Art 47.d), they are now mercenaries. If no trial of the people accused of being mercenaries takes place, then the allegations tend to evaporate in a spiral of accusations, denials and counter accusations. It should be noted that Coalition soldiers in Iraq which are supporting the interim Iraqi government are not mercenaries, because either they are part of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict or they have been sent by a State which is not a Party to the conflict on official duty as a member of its armed forces (APGC77 Art 47.f).




www.wordiq.com...

Originally posted by rsaunders

The only thing troops have to count on in combat is the support of their fellow soldiers. When they put themselves above the team then they have acted treasonously - they have abandoned you to die - THEY have sentenced you to never have a chance to see YOUR family again.


[edit on 15-10-2004 by rsaunders]

[edit on 15-10-2004 by rsaunders]

You just described George W Bush and his Administration to the "teeth",

Our troops LOOK to Bush for leadership,............ "Commander and Chief", Why they would beleive a thing he had to say is my boggling.......... I mean ,.... never mind.
Bush & his Administration put that DAM* oil above our troops, forcing the troops to stay and die,........... and the one's that die will never get to see their families again,..................... I call that treason in it's self.

rsaunders, if you think it's such a "bowl of cherries" in Iraq, why don't you go there and fight,...... put your life out there and have someone tell you to drive a un-safe truck...... un-guarded........... into that mess with a pretty good chance of not making it alive to the place you were ordered to take it .

Go put yourself in their shoes,...................... then you would have the "right" to make the UN-AMERICAN remarks you've been making about those 17 Reservist.

As the saying goes,............ "WALK A MILE IN THEIR SHOES ".

Originally posted by rsaunders
Right-on, Friday1212

Originally posted by taibunsuu
Wow, that's tough talk coming from someone sitting Stateside behind a keyboard. Did you have to face down the alpha radiation from your monitor to type that?

Nope - use a plasma screen, Mme. Propagandist. Truth is tough. Get over it.
Don't worry though. If your socialist pal Kerry gets elected he'll "make it all better". Remember - he has a plan!

-check out www.getoverit.org for details

[edit on 15-10-2004 by rsaunders]

[edit on 16-10-2004 by rsaunders]

[edit on 16-10-2004 by rsaunders]

Screw Kerry. Only way he could make situation better is if he ordered the SecDef to remove all troops from Iraq as soon as he's president.

Screw armchair warriors, too. Almost as bad as Kerry and Bush.

CNN just posted the story. It must be true.

www.cnn.com...

I just posted another thread on this topic not seeing this one. Oops.

Whoa people calm down, when I was talking about mercenaries, I meant just that they are volunteers (or they were volunteers when they enlisted) and are PAID for doing their jobs, they are no poor consripts forced to fight. Or are you trying to say, that reservist never recieve money, or they have not voluntarily signed up?

In war, not always you can get everything you want - armed escort, air support etc., and I'm sure the commanders had good reason why to give them no escort.

Race car drivers are paid to drive fast and risk their lives. Do you think any of them would get into a car if they were told to drive without any brakes?

That's not good analogy, they have the weapons to defend themselves or not? I know they would like to have 4 abrams 2 helicopters, and predator UAV for escort, but you cannot always have everything you want.

Its easy for all you keyboard warriors to talk tough but youre all dumb if you would blindly obey any order no matter how stupid, thats brainwashing IMO.

For many slodiers the actions like Omaha Beach were also stupid and suicidal misions.

Following orders is not always the best thing to do.
After all the soldiers at Abu Ghraib were just following orders right?

Don't mix violating POW rights with this please.
@@:

I served in the Army, and I have an opinion on this. There are only two reasons to disobey an order given by an officer. One, is if the order is immoral (such as dragging EPWs around on leashes). The other is of the order is illegal (such as dragging EPWs around on leashes). I hate to say it, but the way this incident reads, the reservists had no justification to disobey the order to perform a convoy mission.

If their unit's vehicles were not fully functional (deadlined), then it is the fault of the operator and NCO by not properly maintaining the equipment. If the deficiencies were noted and all possible steps were taken to correct the deficiencies, then the vehicles in question should not be used. Others could have been supplied.

Something about this incident smells foul. Although I sympathize with the reservists for being given a mission for which they thought had no reason (gas was contaminated), that fact alone is not reason to disobey an order. Although I have no more info on this incident that anyone else, I think the real reasons behind this incident are probably more simple than many will conject.

The real incident may be due to the vehicles being unserviceable. The platoon may have been given the order, then turned around and stated they could not complete the mission due to bad equipment. The receiver of the message may have incorrectly summized the message as being an attempt to disobey the order when the unit may have been simply stating the obvious.

If, on the other hand, the facts of the case show the unit disobeyed the order due to disagreements with the mission, the members are wrong. Although the Army serves to protect and defend democracy, it does not practice it.

I watched this ont BET News last night, the only reson these people where released was because they did the smart thing and called thier families.

They had good reason not to follow orders, The fuel wasnt even any good.
Whay take a chance on being killed for nothing. Thier trucks where not in good shape and they had NO protection.

They dont want to die for no reason, more power to them.

Even my husband thinks that what is going on in Iraq, must be pretty bad to drive these people into becoming mutiny, but like some has said they are not active military soldiers they were activated because the conflict in Iraq, usually these people take over the man power in the military bases but now they are in the front lines so that tell you� people that have never been in a war� how bad things are right now not only here with shortage of personnel but in Iraq.

I agree with anybody that said that this war does not deserve the life of any fo our military personnel.

For those that think they are cowards, I think they are courageous into voicing the realities of a poor plan of after-invasion in Iraq.


[edit on 16-10-2004 by marg6043]

Originally posted by marg6043


For those that think they are cowards, I think they are courageous into voicing the realities of a poor plan of after-invasion in Iraq.

Very well put, its harder to stand up for what you believe in, than to follow orders.

Yes, well, denying orders is not illegal - as long as you take the proper steps to do so.

If you read the reports from the U.S. Military, you would see that they weren't arrested because they denied orders, it was because they did it in the wrong way. They didn't take the proper Chain of Command steps neccessary in voicing a concern about a mission, they simply denied to do the mission.

That is why they were arrested, because, instead of using proper COC steps, they directly denied the orders from a commanding officer; this is a direct violation of discipline, and is not allowed.

-wD