Does EVIL really exist and if it does did GOD create it?

Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by crazyguy2012

 

So if this was part of gods plan then that means the end goal was for some good to come of it. It also seems then that Lucifer at least started out being good. Did he then learn to be EVIL? I guess I still have to figure out what evil is to be sure. I am still trying to figure out what he has done that is so EVIL.

Evil is still human perception. Jesus used those words so when speaking to others they would easily understand what he meant. Father holds love for all, even Lucifier, while keeping him separate from everyone else. He still serves a purpose, otherwise he would have been destroyed when he turned away.

Evil has a purpose in the world today, many just don't understand what that purpose is.

edit on 14-9-2012 by jhill76 because: (no reason given)

Evil does definitely have a purpose. Akron just defined evil as selfishness. So lets see if we all still lived in eden and had everything we want or need then how would we know love? God loved us of course and gave us everything. When he threw us out did he lose his love for us?

When Lucifer gave us the key to knowledge which got us thrown out was he being selfish? Or was he giving us the key to providing god with our love? How can we truly love god if we don't know what selfish is? Isn't it selfish for us to sit around all day enjoying gods paradise without giving anything back? How can we know what sacrifice is without having knowledge about selfishness? How could we truly appreciate Jesus without the knowledge given to us by Lucifer?

reply to post by crazyguy2012

So lets see if we all still lived in eden and had everything we want or need then how would we know love?

Or, how would you appreciate love, without the evil?

When he threw us out did he lose his love for us?

If this was the case, he would have destroyed man, but his love for man caused him to continue to let man live and learn the error of their ways.

How can we truly love god if we don't know what selfish is? Isn't it selfish for us to sit around all day enjoying gods paradise without giving anything back? How can we know what sacrifice is without having knowledge about selfishness? How could we truly appreciate Jesus without the knowledge given to us by Lucifer?

You know the answer to these questions.

reply to post by jhill76


yes I do know the answers. Hopefully some of those who will read this will get it too. After all isn't the best way to teach often through asking students questions? But I am sure I will soon get to some questions I do not already know the answers to.

I had an email conversation with a woman from church about this topic awhile back, so I thought to just cut and paste my response to her in reference to this query. She actually asked if I believed God sent people to hell, but I think that the question is essentially the same, and the answer runs the same.

We never did get to finish this discussion, so I thought I'd take a brief moment and share my thoughts on the subject. Firstly, let me try to frame the picture in which I view this present reality. Of course, there exists an infinite number of subtle metaphors that we could use to describe creation, but I take great comfort in the instruction by God that we are involved in a story. As Shakespeare said, "All the world's a stage, and we are merely players." Actually, God goes through quite a lengthy process in the Bible in order to allow us to understand this very nature of our existence here on Earth. So if we look at the first words of John, we see that "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." So we know that this present reality was spoken into existence by God, The Author of all Creation (do you recall our brief discussion on String Theory?). Genesis also reveals this quite plainly. We also know that God is once and all together complete, the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. All things are accomplished, everything is done, the book has been written.

So, in this sense, we must realize that we are characters inside of this book living out the writings of God. All things on Earth are but a shadow and a copy of heavenly things, and knowing this we can then utilize these "copies" as we find them here in order to further understand that thing (heaven) which would otherwise be completely unknowable to us. So, take for example your favorite author here on Earth, that novelist that spins a wonderful tale. You can no doubt notice a consistent thread in all such novels. For one, there is a hero character, and it is a near certainty that with little deviation this hero character represents the greatest ideals of the author himself. Indeed, this is the author writing himself into the story as he would wish to see himself imbued with the highest aspects of nobility and strength in the face of adversity (while not foregoing those aspects which also make him human; frailty and weakness). This is Jesus Christ. Jesus is the lead character, the star of the story of life. The top of Christ's head is the bottom of God's pen, as God pours Himself into the description of himself in our physical existence, the Word become flesh. Christ alludes to this on a couple of occasions:



John 9
1And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. 2And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

If we look at what the actual lesson is from this story, we can see that it's an attempt by God through Christ to help us understand the nature of ourselves inside of the telling of the story of life. Imagine that you're a character in a book of your favorite author. Do the characters know that they are simply written into a book? No...they have no concept of their authorship. So too were we once blind, but Christ came to show us this revelation. So when His friends ask him why the man was made blind, He's explaining that God has authored the blind man into the story so that He and they might come upon him at this moment for the specific purpose of being healed so that all might understand that God was in deed among them. The blind man's purpose was his role in the book, and this is the Author explaining to the disciples (and through their writings to us all) their nature in relation to the story.

We're shown this again here:



John 11

41Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
42And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.

So we see by God's revelation here that Jesus did not need to speak the words aloud to raise Lazarus from the dead, yet he did so and tells us why. He did it so that those who stood in witness to this act, an act pre-ordained before the foundation of the world, could be known of and believed by those who stood there that day. And this revelation lies directly at the heart of our common faith.

What is faith? It's a belief in this self-same story and the goodness of our Author God. God has completed the book, we know that because we have been told so. We find ourselves upon a certain line in the book, and thereby feel trapped in time, observing the past and awaiting the future, all from our present position as we await the turning of the page. But, the Author of this creation has not only assured us that the book is written and unalterable, but has told us ahead of time the ending and promise of our subsequent reward, and we can thereby have complete confidence in our fate. This is the nature of faith. Imagine if you will the aforementioned novel by your favorite Earthly author. Does the lead character of his making awake everyday to paradise, eating delicious foods, singing songs and communing with nature and humanity, only to retire in the evening in shear and continual bliss? No! That wouldn't write beyond a very few pages and would sale even fewer copies. No, it's the trials that make the tale. It's the overcoming that allows the hero emerge where he otherwise would not. And so, our Earthly author writes in the hero's enemy, designs wicked characters who confront the hero and form the basis of the hero's righteousness; that is to say his justification for the fight (remember, we are called to fight!). Now, the hero is put through many trials in the course of this telling, trials which test and threaten and seem at times tortuous. Imagine now if the author were to enter the story at some point and assure the character that the book had been completed and published, and in the end he saves the world and gets the girl. Well, that's going to lend confidence to the hero in his quest, and depending on how sternly he believes that the author of the book has communicated this to him, his confidence might be complete! This is the faith to which we are called.

Understanding our nature in the flesh in this context by which we were subtlely taught, we can then understand the nature of the destruction of those willfully made wicked, committed to this task by the pen of the Author Himself, who said:



Romans 9:20-22

King James Version (KJV)


21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

So, does God send people to hell? Hell is a place for the unnatural and unloved which challenge the authority and righteousness of God so that His nature might be revealed among us who are confused and confounded by the unknowable Father, thereby was the blessing of this opposition given to us as a gift (as all things are gifts to us), even these vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.

Peace.
Lee

Ok so I have read about the temptation of Jesus a little bit. It seems like the point of it was about selfishness as has been mentioned before. So was Lucifer Evil for tempting Jesus? Jesus could have been selfish and given into temptation. But he didn't. After Jesus resisted temptation Lucifer could have killed him (or could have at least tried to). But he didn't even try. He just left. So my conclusion here is that was not evil.

Unfortunately, I am not very well versed in biblical stories. Anyone know of anything else that Lucifer and/or Satan has done that is considered to be evil?

reply to post by crazyguy2012

After Jesus resisted temptation Lucifer could have killed him (or could have at least tried to). But he didn't even try. He just left. So my conclusion here is that was not evil.

This was his original task when he was an ark, so no it would not have been evil.

Unfortunately, I am not very well versed in biblical stories. Anyone know of anything else that Lucifer and/or Satan has done that is considered to be evil?

Only other major one, is the story of Job.

Oh come on, do some hard ones.

Sure god made evil, he made everything.

Sure god made hell, he made everything.

Sure god then is evil and hell.

But then if god created everything, what or who created god?

How about Santa...

Those little Bible tales don't really add up, do they?

reply to post by jhill76


Job. Thanks. I will look that up next. At least I am now reading the bible. I don't think reading it will save my soul. But it is exercising my brain quite a bit. I guess I have some more reading to do.

reply to post by MagnumOpus


I will get to that eventually. Patience my friend. I have been told that patience is a virtue.

WOW. I went to read Job in the Bible. My wife didn't want me to read it she wanted me to read genesis. I have read that part many many times before. Then we had a conversation that went in such a weird direction. However, that conversation really opened up my mind. I wish it was on video or something. We covered the nature of god, creation, and everything through Tesla.

reply to post by jhill76


I just read the book of Job. Thank you for that again. It was very interesting. It was very insightful.

Well again I must thank Jhill76 for pointing me to Job. Satan clearly is mentioned. Yet again he does not seem to be the "absolute" evil. He does question god but god does not seem to be too offended at Satan's questions. God even states go ahead do your worst but to not touch him physically. Satan obeys god and ruins Job's life but does not touch him. When Job is still faithful Satan again speaks with God and god gives him leave to cause Job physical anguish which he does... I do not see how EVIL would obey god's wishes and then only act when god approves of the actions. Therefore I conclude that Satan is not Evil as most believe. Too me it seems like he is still one of god's angels. One of his Arc's... Still one of his loved ones...

Then there are Job's friends who attempt to save him. But it is late so I will have to post more tomorrow for whomever is interested.

reply to post by crazyguy2012


Well, this is my take on the subject: Evil does exist, and God is the creator of both good and evil. He uses both to teach, and both are at His whim.

I don't think God necessarily planned Lucifer rebelling, I think God knew it was going to happen, and He let it happen because I do think He let the angels have "free will" right until the angels started to mate with the female counterpart of mankind. He wanted to teach Heaven about how truly powerful He is, because i think if He knew His own heavenly creations were going to be deceived/persuaded by Lucifer and they knew firsthand of their heavenly origins, they still had a LOT to learn, just as Lucifer, the most intelligent of all of God's angels, still has a lot to learn. I do think God does love Satan, but He just knows Satan all too well and knows that he/she won't change his/her ways.

From what I understand ucifer is simply the latin worrd for light and I can see why people would want to call Jesus that name. It's a sort of half truth and it makes people question what is real.
The Eternal flame is the God of Love, his Divine message brought in the flesh by our Saviour Jesus the Christ of salvation and prosperity for humanity

DelayedChristmas: That is a very interesting interpretation of what or who lucifer meant to the Father.
We all know that HE cannot be explained in his Business.
Perhaps Father recognized that it takes heart to go against ones intuition and challenge the status quo? A lesson in the making?
If HE sent us as humans to this earth without rules, would we even be discussing our future?
We would have killed ourselves as a Race long ago.. He sees our flaws and also the good works we're capable of.
Peace

Everyone is messing it up. "Lucifer" appears one time, it's a terrible Latin rendering of the Hebrew "Heylel ben Sachar" from Isaiah 14:12. Heylel ben Sachar doesn't mean "bringer of light", it means "crescent moon and star". In Arabic "hilel" is also "crescent moon", both Arabic and Hebrew are Semitic languages. Where Jerome messed up is the moon BEARS the light, or reflects the light of the sun. The moon has no capacity to produce it's own light.

Morning Star is a title Christ reserves for Himself in Revelation. Satan's name never was "Lucifer" before he fell, it was "Heylel".

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Everyone is messing it up. "Lucifer" appears one time, it's a terrible Latin rendering of the Hebrew "Heylel ben Sachar" from Isaiah 14:12. Heylel ben Sachar doesn't mean "bringer of light", it means "crescent moon and star". In Arabic "hilel" is also "crescent moon", both Arabic and Hebrew are Semitic languages. Where Jerome messed up is the moon BEARS the light, or reflects the light of the sun. The moon has no capacity to produce it's own light.

Morning Star is a title Christ reserves for Himself in Revelation. Satan's name never was "Lucifer" before he fell, it was "Heylel".

So this is where the term "moon god" comes from?

What you see right now is light. You experience light in many forms, as vision, sound, taste and touch. The light is what is seen so most just see what is to be seen but there is another aspect needed for the light to appear. There has to be a seer of the light.
Find the seer.

Originally posted by HamrHeed

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Everyone is messing it up. "Lucifer" appears one time, it's a terrible Latin rendering of the Hebrew "Heylel ben Sachar" from Isaiah 14:12. Heylel ben Sachar doesn't mean "bringer of light", it means "crescent moon and star". In Arabic "hilel" is also "crescent moon", both Arabic and Hebrew are Semitic languages. Where Jerome messed up is the moon BEARS the light, or reflects the light of the sun. The moon has no capacity to produce it's own light.

Morning Star is a title Christ reserves for Himself in Revelation. Satan's name never was "Lucifer" before he fell, it was "Heylel".

So this is where the term "moon god" comes from?

There is nothing new under the Sun.. In Isaiah 14:12 God is condemning "Heylel ben Sachar", not the Latin "Lucifer". Isaiah was written in Hebrew, not Latin. Jerome translated the Vulgate from the LXX, not the Hebrew.

"Crescent moon and star".

Sounds like Islam must be Jesus' Light

www.israelofgod.org...

The author of you article messes up Hebrew big time. "Heylel" and "Halal" are two completely different Hebrew words. "Halal" is not the root of Heylel, both are roots.