Mac Tonnies on the Cryptoterrestrial UFO Hypothesis.

For folks interested in discussion and speculation about UFO origin this interview with the late Mac Tonnies is a pretty interesting (and entertaining) romp through the various hypotheses and opinions out there including his own 'cryptoterrestrial' idea that UFOs may have more to do with a species of intelligent non-humans indigenous to the planet Earth that have 'adapted to our numerical superiority by developing a surprisingly robust technology'.

The inter-dimensional hypothesis is also discussed (and the 'trickster element') as well as specific UFO occupant cases and the work of various researchers including Jacques Vallee and John Keel.


Interview:

Author, blogger and Fortean researcher Mac Tonnies argued that the ET hypothesis (that aliens are visiting our world from other star systems) is somewhat of an outmoded concept, and the truth may be stranger than we can imagine, involving a myriad of overlapping explanations. The notion of parallel worlds has gained credence in the scientific world, and the aliens could represent a kind of symbiosis with beings from another dimension, he noted. The so-called ETs could be a species of intelligent non-humans, or "Cryptoterrestrials" who covertly share our planet with us. Because aliens are typically described as a bipedal and human-like species, it suggests to him they have developed here on Earth.

Mac Tonnies outlines the CTH:




The loss of Mac Tonnies at the age of 34 was a great shame but as he says in the interview the CTH could be an option that warrants further investigation - don't know if other members agree with the idea of a race of techologically superior indigenous humanoids sharing our planet and being in some way responsible for UFO (or USO) reports but for further discussion the interview below with Tim Binnall really does go in depth and expands on other ufological aspects surrounding the hypothesis.

Mac starts out by giving us the basics on the CTH and brings everyone up to speed on just what it is. He talks about how the CTH came about and what separates it from the Jaques Valee theory of interdimensional beings.

If the cryptoterrestrials exist here on Earth, where are they most likely to be located ? He explains how the CTH "works" better than the ET hypothesis when it comes to reports of UFOs over nuclear facilities. He also explains how abductions may be best explained with the cryptoterrestrial hypothesis.

Mac tries to clear up the misconception that the CTH v. ETH debate is an "either / or" scenario. He talks about methods of testing the cryptoterrestrial hypothesis. We find out what Mac thinks the CTs would look like. Also, how doee classic UFO scenario into the CTH. (If the CTs are on Earth, what are UFOs ?)

Interview Link

Cheers.

Interesting hypothesis.

It is my personal feeling that classic UFO experiences are likely a combination of extra-terrestrial and extra-dimensional. It is easier to wrap our mind around ET, or at least it is for me.

I do get annoyed when space travel skeptics point to inconquerable space distances. Really? 150 years ago we were limited to the speed of a horse, today we can land craft and mon the moon, and an SUV on Mars. What could we do in another 1000 years. Space travel is daunting, but so was it once to cross the ocean.

I will check this out. Thanks.

reply to post by karl 12


While a skeptic, I find Tonnies' idea to be a very compelling one, along with Vallee's ideas. If I were to throw in the towel and say, "Yes, UFOs are piloted by non-human intelligences" I would subscribe to Tonnies' idea that the phenomenon has an origin much closer to home than extraterrestrials.

What I appreciated more about Mac Tonnies is that he clearly liked to make people think, and his theories sure forced you to question what you took for granted and assumed about a particular phenomenon. That's never a bad thing.

Realistically, however, I don't think the cryptoterrestrial hypothesis is a very tenable theory. But Mac didn't took his theories and ideas too seriously, as I remember Paul Kimball and Greg Bishop talking about it on a podcast after his passing. Many of his ideas were more mental exercises than anything else.

Mac and his thought-provoking ideas will be missed.

Haven't listened to the interviews yet, but I will. Wanted to make sure and bump this excellent topic for some--hopefully--great discussion.

If we take the ufo/uso/close encounters/abduction/contactees phenomenon as a whole, then it does appear that we have to reframe some of our thoughts about it all.

It can be argued that we disregard everything but the sky sightings, but, can we do that? I don't think so.

There is an undeniable power about it all that has, as Vallee points out, created a paradigm shift and shaped our thinking in ways that suggest a powerful intelligence at work.

This seems a topic that's way overdue, can't wait to see where it will lead.

Wow! How interesting that Tonnies suggests we share a common ancestor with the theorized Cryptoterrestrials. It's mind-blowing enough to give pause for reflection.

He extrapolates the idea from two basics:

1.) If Villas Boas and others did actually have sex with one of these beings, then what are the chances of us being that sexually compatible with an extraterrestrial race?

2.) The purported interest in our DNA during the abduction experience.

Tonnies was obviously influenced and co-opts largely from Vallee & Keel et al, but ultimately, I don't see the theory superseding some form of the Interdimensional Hypothesis, but then again I don't see it that different from the IDH argument either.

I listened/watched the first two, so I guess I'll have to wait until tomorrow and listen to Binnal to see how Tonnies further differentiates it from the IDH--besides the obvious.

That's not to say a physical indigenous race is out of the question. It's intriguing.

I'm glad the younger generation--as evidenced by Tonnies--are taking all aspects of the phenomenon into account and theorizing on the possible meanings. I wish them uppity whippersnappers would hurry up and solve it for us before I pass on, though.

Villas Boas Mock-Up.

I'm allergic to ancient astronauts and lost civilisations on Mars which meant a lot of his output was lost on me. I did like the cryptos idea as something to think about. After all, the concept of a separate race living amongst us is an intriguing one. If any of the humanoid encounters of years past were true, quite a few could walk our streets and not look much more unusual than anyone else. Short guys with big heads aren't exactly unheard of and those so-called Nordics looked...well...Nordic. We've all seen people who are right on the margins of the human-template - just walk through your neighbourhood and look...

I couldn't really grasp the cryptos faking encounters and saucer reports, but they barely make sense in other hypotheses either. Still, the idea of Folk from Elsewhere watching us gradually overrun this planet as they remain anonymous is a splendid one.

Appreciate the replies guys and it certainly is a fascinating theory - as Mac mentions in the interview, he doesn't think anyone has all the answers when it comes to the UFO subject (and I'd tend to agree with him on that one) but it looks like even Zoologist Ivan T Sanderson was speculating about the CTH as far back as 1960s so it doesn't appear to be too much of a relatively new concept.

CTH:

Sanderson at several points suggested the possibility that the "occupants" of UFOs might be artificial life forms. He was not dogmatic about this, and also entertained the idea that they might be an as-yet unknown life-form indigenous to Earth. Still, the concept of UFOs as a form of artificial intelligence is fertile enough that we might have expected some follow-up.

USOs:

Sanderson reminds us of the hard yet oft-forgotten fact of UFOlogy, which is, most UFOs seem inextricably connected with water - They are very frequently seen entering and leaving water, moving through or above water, and otherwise interacting with water. Sanderson explores all the implications of this, leading him to postulate that most UFOs are actually USOs - Unidentified Submerged Objects, and their pilots, these other intelligences (OINTS), may have evolved alongside of humanity but under the sea.

link

Looks like Mac was the main man when it came to expanding and extrapolating on the hypothesis though (even if it was just mental exercise) - here's the premise for his book about the subject with a good review from Ireadoddbooks:

"I propose that at least some accounts of alien visitation can be attributed to a humanoid species indigenous to the Earth, a sister race that has adapted to our numerical superiority by developing a surprisingly robust technology. The explicitly reproductive overtones that color many encounters suggest that these “indigenous aliens” are imperiled by a malady that has gone uncured throughout the eons we have coexisted. Driven by a puzzling mixture of hubris and existential desperation, they seek to perpetuate themselves by infusing their gene-pool with human DNA. While existing at the very margins of ordinary human perception, they have succeeded in realms practically unexplored by known terrestrial science, reinventing themselves at will and helping to orchestrate a misinformation campaign of awe-inspiring scope".

Mac Tonnies

link

Cheers.

Originally posted by The GUT

If we take the ufo/uso/close encounters/abduction/contactees phenomenon as a whole, then it does appear that we have to reframe some of our thoughts about it all.

Suppose it's best to explore all the options mate and I thought you might like that interview, also suppose the CTH should be given equal footing with the rest of the theories out there (or at least be known about) - as we've talked about before, I haven't the foggiest idea what's going on but the sheer variety of some of the UFO occupant reports boggles the mind (link) - there does exist quite a few global reports of human looking UFOnauts over the years though so maybe the CTH could be just part of the equation and other theories like extra-terrestrial, extra-dimensional, advanced machine intelligence, time travellers etc. all fit in somewhere - hell maybe it's all of them at once.

Originally posted by The GUT

It can be argued that we disregard everything but the sky sightings, but, can we do that? I don't think so.

I don't think so either and I always found some of the USO accounts on SkyFloating's USO Research thread and Carl Feindt's WaterUFO website pretty darn intriguing- there are also quite a few reports of unknown objects submerging into (or emerging from) the world's oceans so I'd say this aspect needs to be factored into airbourne reports if nothing else - also the behaviour of the objects like collecting water or syphoning electricity pylons is an interesting factor (not to mention hanging around nuclear/atomic facilities).

Cheers.

Originally posted by karl 12

Originally posted by The GUT

If we take the ufo/uso/close encounters/abduction/contactees phenomenon as a whole, then it does appear that we have to reframe some of our thoughts about it all.

Suppose it's best to explore all the options mate and I thought you might like that interview, also suppose the CTH should be given equal footing with the rest of the theories out there (or at least be known about) - as we've talked about before, I haven't the foggiest idea what's going on but the sheer variety of some of the UFO occupant reports boggles the mind (link) - there does exist quite a few global reports of human looking UFOnauts over the years though so maybe the CTH could be just part of the equation and other theories like extra-terrestrial, extra-dimensional, advanced machine intelligence, time travellers etc. all fit in somewhere - hell maybe it's all of them at once.

While it is interesting to entertain all manner of hypothesis, I really can't agree that they are all on an "equal footing" with respect to feasibility.

The crypto-terrestrial theory has one advantage in that it is based on the idea that other lifeforms of advanced intelligence might evolve on the same planet. This can be argued conceptually, but I don't think you would find many evolutionary theorists supporting the idea that humans may have a more intelligent predecessor that has built an advanced civilization underground, underwater or otherwise hidden from modern day humans. But I suppose it is possible that these species are so advanced as to be able to obscure and hide all evidence of their presence (aside from the occasional sighting of one of their craft?) Why they would permit another potentially competing civilization to emerge and occupy the most favourable and biologically productive parts of the planet is a big question.

The concept of time travellers is far less feasible from the viewpoint that there is so far no evidence to support the physical possibility of time travel.

The Interdimensional Hypothesis is also hampered by all sorts of questions about feasibility. The first question I've never seen answered in a straightforward manner, is what “other dimension” are we talking about? Another spacial dimension of this universe? A parallel universe? While some physicists have postulated the possibility of the existence of other universes, there is no evidence that even one such universe actually exists. If such alternate universes do exists, then they may have fundamentally different physical laws that would probably preclude travel from one to another.

In my opinion, the most feasible hypothesis proposed for “alien craft” as being a source for some unexplained UFO incidents remains the Extraterrestrial Hypothesis. There is no doubt that there do exist trillions upon trillions of planets out there in this universe. While the distances between stars are great, it can be inferred that some other lifeforms on some of these planets do obtain superior levels of technology allowing them to travel from one star system to another, even if this is only using robotic probes (as humans have already demonstrated to be easier to send over long distances).

And while it remains mysterious the reasons why such ET visitors would come here, but choose to remain mostly undetected, there is little doubt that technologically superior beings probably do actually inhabit this universe.

I do agree that conceptually, there is no reason to “rule out” any hypothesis. But that doesn't mean that they are all on the same level of feasibility.

I do believe that there may well be underwater or underground bases on this planet that were built by more technologically advanced civilizations than human civilization. These may have been built before our civilization emerged around the end of the last ice age. They might have been continuously occupied longer than we might imagine. I am personally more inclined to believe that such facilities were built by ET, rather than crypto-terrestrials.

My recall is that Mac Tonnies also postulated the possibility that an ancient civilization may have emerged on Mars and that they may have migrated to Earth as their planet became a hostile environment. I'm not sure if there is any real evidence that supports this theory. At this point we don't know for certain if Mars has been able to support the evolution of even the most primitive life forms.

It is interesting to speculate about every theory, but I do think that it should not simply be assumed that all theories have equal feasibility, when some are clearly beyond the limits of our current understanding of science and the nature of this universe.

If you haven't seen it already, then I really do suggest you find a copy of "Quatermas and the Pit", it's just been re-released a month or so ago. It was penned by the legendary Nigel Kneale who didn't believe in "aliens" or the "supernatural" at all and yet, with this single work managed to "jump the gun" as it were, on so many theories we are talking about on this thread.

There's a scene missing from the film version that was in the original TV series where Quatermas visits a medium, which cements even further the link between the paranormal and aliens. It's one of those rare Sc Fi films that manages to marry, decent acting, good script, with a genuinely chilling story. The Spaceship and the "explanations" for where it actually came from are classics and will strike a huge resonance with anyone well versed in Ufology. The Spaceship itself is also probably my favourite alien ship ever.

To add a little to the subject, one of my fascinations, since I was a small child has been those places where, seemingly everything is right and yet it feels that we as "humans" aren't welcome. Growing up in a, relatively, small Island like Britain, such places are to be found littered around the landscape close by to large population centres. It's as if, post the "Iron Age" many of these sites were abandoned as settlements and they have become places that often have a colourful supernatural history. There's one close by me called "Meon Hill". It's a place where all logic suggests that it was a prime place to build a fort or castle and yet, post Iron Age it has been relatively undeveloped. It's also the first place I saw a "genuine" crop circle. By that I mean a simple flat circle in a crop in 1974 and it's miles away from the area that the original circle makers claim they worked in.

Not only that, I am convinced that another classic, horror film, "Night/Curse of the Demon" chose Warwickshire as the setting for the evil baddies home, Lufford Hall belonging to Karswell, because of the so called "Last Witchcraft Murder" in England that took place in the mid 1940s. Meon Hill has the lot, Ghosts, Witchcraft, Spectral Black Dogs, Earthlights/UFOs. Meon Hill, to many looks like a typical slice of idyllic bucolic quintessential English countryside. Yet, even on a beautiful summer's day, there is something about the place that is slightly disturbing, something that even many hardened sceptics admit seems to be almost palpable.

Meon Hill Witchcraft murder

I'd add that I have a copy of Fabian of the Yards book and in it he goes further and says... " After i saw the large black dog in the road near to the village, the locals simply clammed up and refused to talk to me from then on"

Another strange addendum to the case came about 20 years ago when renovations on a local barn we being carried out. A watch was found under the 100s of years old flagstones that it was claimed belonged to the victim Charles Walton

Google Maps Meon Hill

I've added a link to the Google Map for the area to give you some idea of the topography and how this is not some "blasted wild place", in fact, the very opposite. The fact is, many of these areas in Britain, akin to Meon Hill, have a long history of UFO sightings as well as a deep and long held core of stories about the supernatural. Rendlesham and the area of the Peak District where the Tornado is meant to have crashed, are two current threads that are perfect examples.

I don't pretend this is an easy or comfortable area for people to explore particularly, given UFOs by dint of their very apparent nature and ancient legends seem almost diametrically opposed. Yet, in my country these correlations keep popping up and one has to follow the trail of evidence no matter where it leads and no matter how uncomfortable to our 21st century sensibilities it might appear. It also would be so very human if Nigel Kneale, without even knowing and so personally opposed to all this "bunkum" had inadvertently hit pay dirt on the conceptual level. I feel sure John Keel would wear a wry smile on his face at the idea.

Another link More on the Witchcraft Murder including a rather beautiful synchronicity in that, the author quotes a Nick Drake song.

Originally posted by bluestreak53

While it is interesting to entertain all manner of hypothesis, I really can't agree that they are all on an "equal footing" with respect to feasibility.

Thanks for the reply Bluestreak and will get back to you on this one when time allows - I see what you're saying and there's plenty of scope for discussion so will post in a bit.

PS Seeing as there's still no consensus after all these years and considering the very high strangeness factor of all these different reports doesn't the non-ET hypothesis appeal in any way?

Cheers.

reply to post by FireMoon


It's not got the missing scene but am watching it now.


video.google.com...

Or is it this one

www.youtube.com...

I continue to say that our understanding of reality is very sadly limited by our fundamental organic animal natures and our therefore limited intelligence and perceptive abilities. Maybe someday we'll use our cleverness and technology to find a way to get around these limitations and get a better understanding of what's really going on.

reply to post by karl 12


In the same way that all major religions contains small traces of the truth, so is it often too with other disputed fields. It's highly likely that it is all these explanations at once. That's why it's so confusing to many ppl. Do aliens really exist? Are all UFO's stress related? Are we being visited from other dimensions.

Maybe it's everything at once. Maybe it's something completely different. It's not so simple so it can be explained by one single theory that covers all sightings, all experiences.

Greg Bishop, Paul Kimball and Nick Red fern discuss Mac Tonnes:



m.youtube.com...

New video interview link:

Great thread and discussion Karl, well done.

I had been independently toying with something like the CTH for some time, but was unaware of Mac Tonnies ideas, so glad to have found this.

I must admit I'm torn between CTH and ETH, but Bluestreak has also definitely clarified thinking

a reply to: FireMoon

I was able to view the first 10 min of the 'Quartermas' film and wanted to drop you a line and bump this thread as I plan on watching the other parts and hope to fire this discussion back up...

Cheers