The Death Throes of Authoritarianism? Or True Enlightenment Preparation?

reply to post by NorEaster


I would agree that this oneness mind-set, whether perpetuated by a herd-mentality, or at least some sort of desire to be apart of something bigger than ourselves, is the death throes of authoritarianism, and has nothing to do with romantic ideas of enlightenment. The thought may just help some sleep better at night.

It also makes me wonder if everyone is fit enough to take on the world as an individual. Maybe not.

reply to post by Logarock

In your chosen explanation they are still "subject" to that "higher power" which is the real "whole" and the "true self", are they not? Everything that follows from it are different expressions of that "higher power" or whole. Both the experience of various scopes of individuality and the experience one total being.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
It also makes me wonder if everyone is fit enough to take on the world as an individual. Maybe not.

"take on the world"

Welp... that pretty much sums it up right there!

Danke for the thread NorEaster, pleasure doing discussion as always.

I just want to remind NorEaster and LesMisanthrope that semantics is not the way to argue this topic. Just because someone says "we are one" does not make it incorrect. As you, NorEaster, rightly brought up Holon Theory which I elaborated on, that allows for both "oneness" and "individuality". Both are just as trivially incoherent as they are correct. I thought in the OP, we were talking about the need to establish the reality that there is an "individual", not to deny the fact that there is no whole? If there is a whole in which all these "individuals" are parts of, then there is "oneness". This doesn't negate "individuality", not in Holon Theory or Non-Duality.

Originally posted by NorEaster
reply to post by openlocks

 

Discovering Holon Theory was a real revelation for me, and helped me realize the value of unity within the larger whole, even as I embraced and developed my own individuality as a contribution to the texture and value of the composite whole. The last thing I would ever want to do is mindlessly sludge into the whole and relinquish all that I can possibly contribute as a unique holon within its collective. I guess I'm very aware of how crucial it is that each wonderful human being be encouraged to develop itself and discover what it has to give to the larger holon that is the human race.

In contribution is the reward of all that brilliant effort. Not in hoarding to oneself, but in sharing with the larger whole. This is what I see as being the value of individual expression.

edit on 8/25/2012 by NorEaster because: (no reason given)

A crucifixion comes to mind. The value of the individual expression, exposing the gulf between the individual and the whole. To affirm the wretchedness of the whole and yet at the same time a man makes a pathway.

Originally posted by openlocks
I just want to remind NorEaster and LesMisanthrope that semantics is not the way to argue this topic. Just because someone says "we are one" does not make it incorrect. As you, NorEaster, rightly brought up Holon Theory which I elaborated on, that allows for both "oneness" and "individuality". Both are just as trivially incoherent as they are correct. I thought in the OP, we were talking about the need to establish the reality that there is an "individual", not to deny the fact that there is no whole? If there is a whole in which all these "individuals" are parts of, then there is "oneness". This doesn't negate "individuality", not in Holon Theory or Non-Duality.

I totally agree. I was only showing that the proposition, which many like to express, is contradictory. We are one _______ is a better more complete sentence once the blank is filled in.

But I disagree that being a part of a group equates to being a part of a one. This arrises the difficulty in the Problem of Universals which philosophers have been debating since Aristotle. I am under the opinion that universals don't exist. This is of course an opinion based on my own studies.

Originally posted by ErgoTheConclusion

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
It also makes me wonder if everyone is fit enough to take on the world as an individual. Maybe not.

"take on the world"

Welp... that pretty much sums it up right there!

Danke for the thread NorEaster, pleasure doing discussion as always.

Sums up what may I ask?

Please don't escape, your insight is valuable.

Originally posted by openlocks
I just want to remind NorEaster and LesMisanthrope that semantics is not the way to argue this topic. Just because someone says "we are one" does not make it incorrect. As you, NorEaster, rightly brought up Holon Theory which I elaborated on, that allows for both "oneness" and "individuality". Both are just as trivially incoherent as they are correct. I thought in the OP, we were talking about the need to establish the reality that there is an "individual", not to deny the fact that there is no whole? If there is a whole in which all these "individuals" are parts of, then there is "oneness". This doesn't negate "individuality", not in Holon Theory or Non-Duality.

I acknowledge the holon nature of any reality whole as being the singular composite of all that comprises it. And, yes, this does suggest that a version of "oneness" exists, but that said, this "oneness" is not the experience of any individual holon that contributes to the whole that only the whole itself can "experience" - with the caveat that a reality confine does not and cannot experience itself in a sentient manner.

We are all parts of a whole, but as parts, we are what we are, and can't simply teach ourselves to be what we are not. Not even if we're American citizens. And yes, that will come as a shock to approximately 350 million holon units that contribute to this specific reality confine.

And it's this notion that I want to challenge with this thread.

Talk, talk, talk. Quit talking and challenge oneness directly.

Gnats Inside the Wind

Some gnats come from the grass to speak with Solomon.

“O Solomon you are the champion of the oppressed.
You give justice to the little guys, and they don’t get
any littler than us! We are tiny metaphors
for frailty. Can you defend us?”

“Who has mistreated you?”

“Our complaint is against the wind.”

“Well” says Solomon, “you have pretty voices,
you gnats, but remember, a judge cannot listen
to just one side. I must hear both litigants.”

“Of course,” agreed the gnats.

“Summon the East Wind!” calls out Solomon,
and the wind arrives almost immediately.

What happened to the gnat plaintiffs? Gone.

Such is the way of every seeker who comes to complain
before the High Court. When the presence of God arrives,
where are the seekers? First there’s dying,
then union, like gnats inside the wind.

-Rumi

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by NorEaster
reply to post by openlocks

 

Discovering Holon Theory was a real revelation for me, and helped me realize the value of unity within the larger whole, even as I embraced and developed my own individuality as a contribution to the texture and value of the composite whole. The last thing I would ever want to do is mindlessly sludge into the whole and relinquish all that I can possibly contribute as a unique holon within its collective. I guess I'm very aware of how crucial it is that each wonderful human being be encouraged to develop itself and discover what it has to give to the larger holon that is the human race.

In contribution is the reward of all that brilliant effort. Not in hoarding to oneself, but in sharing with the larger whole. This is what I see as being the value of individual expression.

edit on 8/25/2012 by NorEaster because: (no reason given)

A crucifixion comes to mind. The value of the individual expression, exposing the gulf between the individual and the whole. To affirm the wretchedness of the whole and yet at the same time a man makes a pathway.

I was thinking more along the lines of a transcendent idea, or a brilliant interpretation, or even an inspiring example of how to love and live compassionately. I'm torn as to the value of martyrdom. In my view, that's been more of a method of transforming people into road spikes by other people who'd never allow such a thing to happen to themselves. Glory is relative, and while it may be the only contribution available to some people, I'd rather that they be allowed better ways to contribute to begin with.

Originally posted by ErgoTheConclusion
reply to post by Logarock

 

In your chosen explanation they are still "subject" to that "higher power" which is the real "whole" and the "true self", are they not? Everything that follows from it are different expressions of that "higher power" or whole. Both the experience of various scopes of individuality and the experience one total being.

edit on 25-8-2012 by ErgoTheConclusion because: (no reason given)

For me no. The whole is not the higher power. Individual expressions are not expressions of the whole or higher power on thier face by any means. Common denominators certainly hold but only to a point of the baseness of man. A man can be surrogate without violation of himself to the whole.

Originally posted by BlueMule

And it's this notion that I want to challenge with this thread.

Talk, talk, talk. Quit talking and challenge oneness directly.

Teach me, oh wise mule, how to challenge oneness directly. No terrible poetry. Just concisely stated without any babble. Teach me how to rid us of this ideological plague.

Originally posted by NorEaster

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by NorEaster
reply to post by openlocks

 

Discovering Holon Theory was a real revelation for me, and helped me realize the value of unity within the larger whole, even as I embraced and developed my own individuality as a contribution to the texture and value of the composite whole. The last thing I would ever want to do is mindlessly sludge into the whole and relinquish all that I can possibly contribute as a unique holon within its collective. I guess I'm very aware of how crucial it is that each wonderful human being be encouraged to develop itself and discover what it has to give to the larger holon that is the human race.

In contribution is the reward of all that brilliant effort. Not in hoarding to oneself, but in sharing with the larger whole. This is what I see as being the value of individual expression.

edit on 8/25/2012 by NorEaster because: (no reason given)

A crucifixion comes to mind. The value of the individual expression, exposing the gulf between the individual and the whole. To affirm the wretchedness of the whole and yet at the same time a man makes a pathway.

I was thinking more along the lines of a transcendent idea, or a brilliant interpretation, or even an inspiring example of how to love and live compassionately. I'm torn as to the value of martyrdom. In my view, that's been more of a method of transforming people into road spikes by other people who'd never allow such a thing to happen to themselves. Glory is relative, and while it may be the only contribution available to some people, I'd rather that they be allowed better ways to contribute to begin with.

edit on 8/25/2012 by NorEaster because: (no reason given)

I see that as a brilliant interpretation, not of martyrdom, but the answer to a challange made by one man against the whole and the final result of that. As if he were saying, amoung other things, "I concur" to those that see the whole for what it is ultimately.

Originally posted by NorEaster

Originally posted by BlueMule

And it's this notion that I want to challenge with this thread.

Talk, talk, talk. Quit talking and challenge oneness directly.

Teach me, oh wise mule, how to challenge oneness directly. No terrible poetry. Just concisely stated without any babble. Teach me how to rid us of this ideological plague.

Simple. A) Learn the ways to induce the 'mystical experience' known as oneness, unity. B) Try them one by one until you succeed. C) experience oneness directly. D) open a can of whoop-ass

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by NorEaster

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by NorEaster
reply to post by openlocks

 

Discovering Holon Theory was a real revelation for me, and helped me realize the value of unity within the larger whole, even as I embraced and developed my own individuality as a contribution to the texture and value of the composite whole. The last thing I would ever want to do is mindlessly sludge into the whole and relinquish all that I can possibly contribute as a unique holon within its collective. I guess I'm very aware of how crucial it is that each wonderful human being be encouraged to develop itself and discover what it has to give to the larger holon that is the human race.

In contribution is the reward of all that brilliant effort. Not in hoarding to oneself, but in sharing with the larger whole. This is what I see as being the value of individual expression.

edit on 8/25/2012 by NorEaster because: (no reason given)

A crucifixion comes to mind. The value of the individual expression, exposing the gulf between the individual and the whole. To affirm the wretchedness of the whole and yet at the same time a man makes a pathway.

I was thinking more along the lines of a transcendent idea, or a brilliant interpretation, or even an inspiring example of how to love and live compassionately. I'm torn as to the value of martyrdom. In my view, that's been more of a method of transforming people into road spikes by other people who'd never allow such a thing to happen to themselves. Glory is relative, and while it may be the only contribution available to some people, I'd rather that they be allowed better ways to contribute to begin with.

edit on 8/25/2012 by NorEaster because: (no reason given)

I see that as a brilliant interpretation, not of martyrdom, but the answer to a challange made by one man against the whole and the final result of that. As if he we saying "I concur" to those that see the whole for what it is ultimately.

It definitely is a powerful statement, and that fruit cart owner did bring down a string of governments last year when he immolated himself in protest. That said, the many suicide bombers haven't done much but kill themselves in service of the bastards who recruit them and send them off as guided missiles for (in most cases) the funding that they get to keep the fires lit under Western feet. And therein lies the dichotomy that troubles me concerning martyrdom, and why I'm torn concerning its value. It's like a groundswell event that succeeds, only to become an annual requirement that's managed by professional event planners. Like Woodstock II that burned down the vendor area and sacked the stage. It doesn't take much to desecrate a transcendent notion.

reply to post by Logarock

Ok... thank you for helping me understand where you're coming from.

I see the branches.

Originally posted by NorEaster

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by NorEaster

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by NorEaster
reply to post by openlocks

 

Discovering Holon Theory was a real revelation for me, and helped me realize the value of unity within the larger whole, even as I embraced and developed my own individuality as a contribution to the texture and value of the composite whole. The last thing I would ever want to do is mindlessly sludge into the whole and relinquish all that I can possibly contribute as a unique holon within its collective. I guess I'm very aware of how crucial it is that each wonderful human being be encouraged to develop itself and discover what it has to give to the larger holon that is the human race.

In contribution is the reward of all that brilliant effort. Not in hoarding to oneself, but in sharing with the larger whole. This is what I see as being the value of individual expression.

edit on 8/25/2012 by NorEaster because: (no reason given)

A crucifixion comes to mind. The value of the individual expression, exposing the gulf between the individual and the whole. To affirm the wretchedness of the whole and yet at the same time a man makes a pathway.

I was thinking more along the lines of a transcendent idea, or a brilliant interpretation, or even an inspiring example of how to love and live compassionately. I'm torn as to the value of martyrdom. In my view, that's been more of a method of transforming people into road spikes by other people who'd never allow such a thing to happen to themselves. Glory is relative, and while it may be the only contribution available to some people, I'd rather that they be allowed better ways to contribute to begin with.

edit on 8/25/2012 by NorEaster because: (no reason given)

I see that as a brilliant interpretation, not of martyrdom, but the answer to a challange made by one man against the whole and the final result of that. As if he we saying "I concur" to those that see the whole for what it is ultimately.

It definitely is a powerful statement, and that fruit cart owner did bring down a string of governments last year when he immolated himself in protest. That said, the many suicide bombers haven't done much but kill themselves in service of the bastards who recruit them and send them off as guided missiles for (in most cases) the funding that they get to keep the fires lit under Western feet. And therein lies the dichotomy that troubles me concerning martyrdom, and why I'm torn concerning its value. It's like a groundswell event that succeeds, only to become an annual requirement that's managed by professional event planners. Like Woodstock II that burned down the vendor area and sacked the stage. It doesn't take much to desecrate a transcendent notion.

I was hoping you would see his challenge to the underpinnings to ideas about oneness that got him killed. As opposed to just blowing self up in protest.

Originally posted by BlueMule

Originally posted by NorEaster

Originally posted by BlueMule

And it's this notion that I want to challenge with this thread.

Talk, talk, talk. Quit talking and challenge oneness directly.

Teach me, oh wise mule, how to challenge oneness directly. No terrible poetry. Just concisely stated without any babble. Teach me how to rid us of this ideological plague.

Simple. A) Learn the ways to induce the mystical experience known as oneness. B) Try them one by one until you succeed. C) experience oneness directly. D) open a can of whoop-ass

Nice try.




Adhere to my philosophy until you've fully internalized it, and then judge whether it has validity. That seems just so simple...right?

Give me a break.

Experience is perception. Perception is 100% subjective, and only a cognitive interpretation of what has been experienced as either internal or external stimuli. This puts at least two degrees of separation between the mind and the actual experience itself. Then, you have the 100% subjective nature of perception to contend with, as well as the fact that once experienced, the nature of that experience then exists as solely accessible via the brain's "memory cloud", which then further obfuscates the authentic nature of what was perceived to have been experienced.

I'm not seeing your suggestion as a workable plan. Do you have anything less amorphous to suggest?

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by NorEaster

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by NorEaster

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by NorEaster
reply to post by openlocks

 

Discovering Holon Theory was a real revelation for me, and helped me realize the value of unity within the larger whole, even as I embraced and developed my own individuality as a contribution to the texture and value of the composite whole. The last thing I would ever want to do is mindlessly sludge into the whole and relinquish all that I can possibly contribute as a unique holon within its collective. I guess I'm very aware of how crucial it is that each wonderful human being be encouraged to develop itself and discover what it has to give to the larger holon that is the human race.

In contribution is the reward of all that brilliant effort. Not in hoarding to oneself, but in sharing with the larger whole. This is what I see as being the value of individual expression.

edit on 8/25/2012 by NorEaster because: (no reason given)

A crucifixion comes to mind. The value of the individual expression, exposing the gulf between the individual and the whole. To affirm the wretchedness of the whole and yet at the same time a man makes a pathway.

I was thinking more along the lines of a transcendent idea, or a brilliant interpretation, or even an inspiring example of how to love and live compassionately. I'm torn as to the value of martyrdom. In my view, that's been more of a method of transforming people into road spikes by other people who'd never allow such a thing to happen to themselves. Glory is relative, and while it may be the only contribution available to some people, I'd rather that they be allowed better ways to contribute to begin with.

edit on 8/25/2012 by NorEaster because: (no reason given)

I see that as a brilliant interpretation, not of martyrdom, but the answer to a challange made by one man against the whole and the final result of that. As if he we saying "I concur" to those that see the whole for what it is ultimately.

It definitely is a powerful statement, and that fruit cart owner did bring down a string of governments last year when he immolated himself in protest. That said, the many suicide bombers haven't done much but kill themselves in service of the bastards who recruit them and send them off as guided missiles for (in most cases) the funding that they get to keep the fires lit under Western feet. And therein lies the dichotomy that troubles me concerning martyrdom, and why I'm torn concerning its value. It's like a groundswell event that succeeds, only to become an annual requirement that's managed by professional event planners. Like Woodstock II that burned down the vendor area and sacked the stage. It doesn't take much to desecrate a transcendent notion.

I was hoping you would see his challenge to the underpinnings to ideas about oneness that got him killed. As opposed to just blowing self up in protest.

I would, if I knew that it wasn't the 25 grand that (in many confirmed cases) has been given to the bomber's family, or the local rockstar status that some bombers have achieved before being blown to bits. Martyrdom is not a easy pathology to qualify. It's extremely complex in many circumstances.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
Sums up what may I ask?

Please don't escape, your insight is valuable.

Every interpretation I give will come off as a cop-out. I know for I used to hold your views as deeply and rationally and eloquently as you. And they are quite rational and solid! From one type of viewing angle.

It really is like a joke, in that you either see it or you don't... and it can't really be explained. Or perhaps more like an Auto-stereogram, that might be a better analogy. Nobody can show it to you... nobody can make the 2D image go 3D but you.

Holding a world view that there is anything to "take on" inherently affects the outcome of the observation. It dictates the nature of the interaction between "here" and "there"... or "me" and "you" and by necessity creates an observation of other explanations appearing paradoxical and impossible with seemingly no resolution.

NorEaster has occasionally expressed an interpretation that "those who claim to have seen it" and then try to speak of it ala the "namaste crowd" are "hiding" something or trying to somewhat trick people, and we're left with nothing to do but shrug because we remember when *we* thought others were being vague or trying to... what was the term he used... "create a velvet rope".

I can still vividly remember the process of transitioning from that side of the "rope" to the other and looking back and realizing there was no rope, nothing hidden, and the people weren't being vague or paradoxical after all. Only my way of looking/thinking. And nobody could make me see it but myself... only offer a variety of interpretations. But it couldn't start until I stopped assuming they were illogical and gave it a real chance. That of course only happened once I started to really see the limitations of the view I had been trumpetting for almost two decades.

Like I said... bunch of copping-out.