Too Welsh To ...sing "God Save The Queen" but not welsh enough to wear another nations name?

Originally posted by marvinthemartian
reply to post by Dr Expired

 

Cardif the greatest welsh football team? How do you work that one out? I'm a scouser so i'm neutral but arnt Swansey the first Welsh team in the premier league? How can a team in a lower league be the greatest?

Im not a sport fan, but yes Swansea is doing very well indeed, its really boosted the economy in my home city, and that what im most happiest about!.

aside from that these welsh v english threads never end well.

and just to add, maybe its time England got Elton John to write them their own national anthem, because yes, God save the Queen belongs to all of us.

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reply to post by thedoctorswife

....maybe its time England got Elton John.....

Maybe it's time Elton John took his mate Paul McCartney and they both slip quietly away into permanent retirement to save us from their embarrassing public performances.

Personally I'd like to see Land Of Hope And Glory adopted as England's National Anthem but it seems that Jerusalem is the popular choice.

I would also like to see St Edmund re-adopted as our Patron Saint but unfortunately the vast majority of English are completely ignorant of Edmund.

God Save The Queen does indeed belong to The Union - I'm not quite sure if our Scottish bretheren appreciate that though given the content of the now not sung fourth verse.

I think Billy Connolly wasn't far off the mark with his assessment all those years ago;

reply to post by Freeborn


I haven't observed "God Save The Queen" being sung anywhere in Scotland since the 1970's, not in my presence anyway ! It was common to sing it at the conclusion of social events, at the cinema or a "dinner dance" but it's use now would prove too controversial for such events nowadays, it's associated with Northern Irish loyalism/sectarianism in much of the central belt.

Like the Union Jack, "God Save The Queen" has gone the way of the dinosaurs, north of the border at least (except Nessie, obv).

Originally posted by Shminkee Pinkee
reply to post by Dr Expired

 

Firstly She's the Queen of Great Britain & Northern Ireland, not England, God Save The Queen is the National anthem of Great Britain, however because England doesn't have one officially they always use God Save the Queen, which, personally I think is wrong and a bit lazy on their part.

Exactly And I agree, the English should have their own anthem to sing when representing England as opposed to the UK

(Personally, I think GSTQ should only be used when the Queen is in attendance and we have a different UK National anthem as well, but that's another issue)

Any Scot or Welshman not singing GSTQ because it isn't 'their' anthem is just silly and ignorant. I blame their teachers And any Scot of Welshman who says they aren't British is as ignorant as a Cockney claiming that because he's a Cockney he isn't a Londoner .......

reply to post by AndyMayhew


God Save The Queen used to be the Australian anthem. And Canadian, New Zealanders too. But ties loosen and all three now do their own thing, as do Scotland & Wales. Are all their citizens silly & ignorant ? Isn't it rather the institution of monarchy which is silly ? And the ignorance, to which you refer, comes from those who still find it hard to believe that there is a rich tradition on these islands which neither English or monarchical.

I like turning things on their head. How would citizens of an independent Wales or Scotland feel about joining England in a "United Kingdom" today ? How would they feel about replacing anthems "The Flower of Scotland" and "Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau" with "God Save The Queen" ... do you think that would be a popular move ?

I'd love to see you stand on a soapbox in Glasgow City Centre and argue that one out. If you made the border alive & in one piece you'd be a lucky man/woman (delete as appropriate).

reply to post by NorthernThird


But my point is that England should also have its own anthem. Rather than being the poor boy left behind .....

GSTQ is NOT the English anthem. They just don't have one of their own so perforse have to use the Royal one. Why scorn them for that? I pity them.

Originally posted by NorthernThird
I'd love to see you stand on a soapbox in Glasgow City Centre and argue that one out. If you made the border alive & in one piece you'd be a lucky man/woman (delete as appropriate).

Nah, I'd just turn it on it's head and ask the silly sassenachs all around me what Alba meant

Originally posted by Shminkee Pinkee
Personally it doesn't matter what country name is on the kit, if you knew anything about British football, you'd know that most of the teams are foreign owned and some of the stadiums names have been changed, i.e. the Emirates etc. it doesn't bother me, I just want to watch the footy, inevitably in live things change, if you don't change with them you get left behind. :-)

I really don't understand why more people don't get behind the small local teams. People are massively tribal over football and yet they can be loyal (to the point of violence) over players, managers, owners that can change every year or so. There's no real tangible connection between players, managers, owners, sponsors &c and the notion of the team itself. A player can be hero one minute and then, next season, playing for some else, he's a waste of human skin.

At least with lower leagues, there's a good chance it's all actually local: which is the only real reason to be tribal about anything (if you are, indeed, going to get tribal).

reply to post by NorthernThird

Isn't it rather the institution of monarchy which is silly ?

A discussion for another time and place methinks, but I think it's worth mentioning that Salmond has stated that if Scotland votes for independance, when he eventually let's you vote on it, that as well as retaining the UK's Sterling currency he also wishes to retain The Queen as Monarch and Head Of State.

.......comes from those who still find it hard to believe that there is a rich tradition on these islands which neither English or monarchical.

Of course there is and you should be proud of that, but there is also a rich tradition that is English - yet MSM etc actively plays down English culture etc.
Welsh, Irish, Scots being proud of their heritage is encouraged and celebrated, and rightly so, whereas the same English nationalism / pride etc is viewed as arrogant, conceited and even bigotted.
Many English are pretty much pissed off with that hypocrisy and double standards.

I like turning things on their head. How would citizens of an independent Wales or Scotland feel about joining England in a "United Kingdom" today ?

But you aren't independant yet and whilst not wanting to turn this into a solely independance debate it is worth noting that all recent polls show that anti-independance sentiment is very much on the increase at present in Scotland.
And I've got to say that Alex Salmond would be a woefully inept representative of an independant Scotland.

And you do realise that The Union came about at the request and behest of Scotland don't you?

Even though I am very much pro-Union perhaps people should be asking themselves would England want to join with Scotland in a United Kingdom today?

How would they feel about replacing anthems "The Flower of Scotland" and "Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau" with "God Save The Queen" ... do you think that would be a popular move ?

I think the vast majority of English don't really care that you've got your own anthems - we just want our own - and we wish that when representing the UK, or the brand name Team GB, everyone would sing the UK's national anthem whatever it may be.

I'd love to see you stand on a soapbox in Glasgow City Centre and argue that one out. If you made the border alive & in one piece you'd be a lucky man/woman (delete as appropriate).

As a frequent visitor to Glasgow I've got to say I've never quite done that - but I've had many a lively discussion with my friends on related issues, usually in licensed premises, and I've always made it out alive - and I'm always welcomed back with a smile and open arms whenever I return.

Originally posted by AndyMayhew
Any Scot or Welshman not singing GSTQ because it isn't 'their' anthem is just silly and ignorant. I blame their teachers

And any Scot of Welshman who says they aren't British is as ignorant as a Cockney claiming that because he's a Cockney he isn't a Londoner .......

Indeed and this is what irked me at the Olympics. There was that Scottish lass in the Women's Football team who refused to sing and her Dad said to the BBC "it's England's anthem" and the BBC didn't even pick up the fact it isn't! England has NO ANTHEM at all, nor a Parliament with it's own legislative or taxation powers for that matter, yet it's always us "evil English bastards", despite history showing quite the opposite...

And I agree with Freeborn, to a point. There needs to be the same level of devolution with England as per the other countries. It is not right that MP's from Wales, Scotland and NI can vote on laws affecting only England, when the reverse isn't true. That said, I vehemently oppose breaking up England into smaller "regions" as this is exactly what the EU would love to see. Maybe have an English Parliament with regions subservient to it and definitely some form of Direct Democracy...

reply to post by stumason

That said, I vehemently oppose breaking up England into smaller "regions" as this is exactly what the EU would love to see. Maybe have an English Parliament with regions subservient to it and definitely some form of Direct Democracy...

If the current First Past the Post electoral system and same old tired out party politics system were retained in an English Parliament then 'The North' and Midlands would be dominated by 'The South'.
This would result in a permanent Conservative government who would then be able to do away with the illusion that they give a toss about 'The North' resulting in an ever greater North - South divide.

All of course would be pretty much irrelevant if we were to see Direct Democracy introduced.

I understand your point about the EU seeking the break up of nation states, and your quite correct - but I'd envisage a Federal Union of Great Britain free from the shackles of the EU monster.

I suspect all are issues that should really be discussed in more depth in other threads.

reply to post by Freeborn


Indeed it should but I have a recollection of such a thread gaining as much traction as a slug in a Cheshire salt pit. Ironic really.. Everyone is for political reform, but when it comes down to it, no one can be arsed...

reply to post by stumason


You are quite correct.

Too many keyboard warriors and bar room revolutionaries, the vast majority of whom lack both the strength of conviction and mental fortitude.

Words are cheap.

Acts and deeds people.

Originally posted by binkman
Anyone who supports the union is NOT an English patriot, they are a Brit unionist.

You do not deserve to call yourself an English Patriot.

I disagree. I like the idea of small countries sharing a not very big island (or even set of islands) and banding together. I actually think it's important as Britain is bigger than the sum of its parts.

At the same time, I'm rather fond of England. Don't get me wrong though, I loathe London-centricism and the fact that the English regions have been historically shafted by a London elite. Geographically, what with living along the Pennines, as well as its associated weather, I've probably got more in common with much of Scotland than I have with London or the South Coast.

That said, I do get tired of 'the English' being nonsensically blamed for everything and the anybody but English mentality is pretty pathetic and makes no sense at all.

History of 'Britain'

Ice Age. Empty Britain falls under 'first dibs' laws as chancers from Spain, Portugal, Netherlands, Germany and Denmark come over. Beakfolk &c. later come over with nice pots.

The technology cult now known as celts arrive. Modern-day 'celts' ignore the fact that the place wasn't empty already and romanticise history beyond all recognition until it resembles a cheap, American, fantasy paperback. Not all celts speak 'celtic', annoyingly for the 'celts': some are likely to have 'German' accents.

Irish Scotti invade what's now Scotland. Acceptable because they're not English. The Irish and Scots are still trying to work out how to blame the English at this point.

Romans subjugate 'celtic England' and create a Romano-Britain. Rather than being angry with the Romans, the Irish, Welsh and Scottish just forget a 'celtic England' ever existed, despite sharing language and culture &c.

Romans leave, celts and Romano-British can't run the place any more and return to ye olde tradition of killing your neighbours. The English would be blamed for this but they're not here yet.

The infighting is now that bad on the main island that 'the English' are invited over in a United Nations 'blue beret' capacity. The English are blamed for accepting the invitation.

Many Romano-British/celts aren't happy with these blonde interlopers. More infighting. Can't afford a wall like the Romans so Offa (King of Birmingham and surrounding area) uses a lot of the pre-existing Roman boundaries to split off a Welsh-only Wales. English happy to be blamed for this, even if it was probably a Roman idea (who weren't keen on Welsh either).

Norsemen come (and stay mainly in north England). Not that much of an issue as some of them are from the same place as 'the English' from a few hundred years earlier. Some even get to be King of all England.

The Irish invaded by Norsemen, who found their biggest city, Irish not happy about it and get it together to kick them out and send them to empty bits of England. A lot of Irish now love this (germanic) Viking connection. First probably use of 'anyone but the English').

This happens with Scotland too, and lots of 'celtic' areas are now populated by Norwegians and other athletic opportunists. 'Anyone but the English' would be trending on Twitter at this point if it existed in manuscript form. Actually, not all Scots are happy about this to be fair. After all, Scotland is meant to be for the Irish!

Normans invade England and Wales. Normans don't really like the English (or Welsh) and don't see themselves as English (or French). This doesn't stop the 'English' being blamed for everything in British history afterwards.

First interventions in Northern Island? Done by Normans with Welsh/Cambrian forces. The 'English' get blamed.

After the House of Normandy ends, the House of Blois, takes over. Pro-tip: Blois isn't in England.

Ongoing Wars of Independence for Scotland against England. You know England, it's the bit down south full of English. Currently under French ownership. The 'English' get blamed but the French owners don't understand as they despise the English so much most still can't be bothered to speak English (unlike the Scots). The 'English' get blamed.

First round of plantations in Ireland? Done by a man with a Welsh family and some French money (Henry VIII, House of Tudor). The 'English' get blamed.

Second round of plantations in Ireland? Done by a the daughter of the man with a Welsh family (Elizabeth I, House of Tudor). The 'English' get blamed.

Enclosures happen and peasants are turfed off the land. But this happens in England by Welsh/French aristocracy but everyone forgets about this as it's only bad when it happens to the Scots and Irish later on. If anyone remembered any of this the English would get blamed.

Ulster plantations? The Tudors turn out to a genetic cul-de-sac, so now Scottish Kings are keeping the 'English' throne warm at this point and many of the beneficiaries of the scheme are Scottish. The 'English' get blamed.

interestingly it seemed that it was only the welsh footballers who did not sing (or get pulled up for not singing) GSTQ, whereas there were plenty of welsh/scots/norn irish in the GB olympic team who presumably joined in like happy little subjects when their turn came - does anyone know if other "team GB" olympic folk did not sing?

overall though, it's a bit crud that the national anthem (or at least the bit played at events) is pretty much "protect our fabulous monarch" rather than something about the land and the people.. if i remember rightly the other verses are no better too.... rather than it being the national anthem, perhaps Liz could just have it as her theme tune instead and strut around Balmoral to it or have it hummed to her by her page as she recieves her morning tea and crumpets etc etc?

Originally posted by binkman
Anyone who supports the union is NOT an English patriot, they are a Brit unionist.

You do not deserve to call yourself an English Patriot.

A lot of people in England are fed-up at the point with 600 years of foreign rulers. England tries it without a monarchy. Pro-tip: Cromwell was a miserable barsteward with everyone not just the Irish.

Cromwell's son's a waster but 'Tumbledown Dick' a great nickname. Scots Kings come back under the promise not to be too much of a swine. Jury is still out but the Irish, Welsh & Scots have a ready made statement as to how & why the English are to blame

Battle of the Boyne happens. Basically a Scots man fighting a Dutch man over Irish land. The 'English' get blamed. Historical sore point that's ongoing. Orange is still a dangerous fashion statement.

The Union happens with England & Scotland. House of Stuart make 1st plans for this. That's the Scottish House of Stuart on the English throne of course. Scotland fancies an Empire (oh the hypocrisy), tries to invade South America but makes an expensive mess of it following run-ins with Spanish. Practically bankrupt at this point and joining-up with England makes some economic sense & they've already got a Scottish monarch ruling England anyway. The 'English' get blamed, partly because they didn't understand why Scotland wanted a Scottish King of Scotland as well as a Scottish King of England.

Germans bring some of that German efficiency and industry to the English throne. Or rather they don't. Very little English actually spoken but made up for it in the way of insanity and/or poryphia.

Highland clearances. See 'Tudor reign' for beta release. Lots of Scottish names involved in all this and a German on the English/British throne. Inexplicably, I've seen the 'English' get blamed & the very notion of Scots vs Scots class-warfare completely ignored.

Americans not keen on George III as they felt they weren't being treated with the 'rights of Englishmen'. Which for the majority of Englishmen is barely imaginable poverty under a foreign ruler with no political representation. Oh, but isn't that... forget it. The 'British' get blamed but Scotland, Ireland, Wales & now America really mean 'English' when they say 'British'.

Queen Victoria arrives: possibly the most famous Queen of England. Certainly the most famous Queen of England with a slight German accent with German being her first language. Lots of things happen at this time, & the 'English' get blamed as no Welsh, Irish or Scottish person exploited an opportunity to make either money or a name during the Industrial revolution or British Empire.

Marx & Engels publish "The Condition of the Working Class in England" which details how bad things are for the vast majority of the English. Promptly ignored by modern day Irish, Scots & Welsh who think the English staple diet has always been champagne and the blood of 'celtic' babies drunk out of carved diamond goblets. This important to remember with regards to the next point.

Only a year or two later, a carbohydrate-based tragedy hits Ireland & potato crops fail. 'British' get blamed but role of Scots & Irish Lords, landlords & businessmen are handily ignored during internet rants. Only the 'English' get blamed for a disease that started in America & ravaged the south of England before even hitting Ireland. Similarly, anything British Prime Minister Robert Peel did to help at the start is ignored & only the free-market ideology (so beloved of Americans, even Irish-Americans) of Lord Russell is remembered. The 'English' get blamed in the biggest way imaginable.

1919: Irish War of Independence happens. Important to remember Britain only got the Representation of the People Act the year before. Meaning, for the 1st time in British/English history, the bulk of the population had any say in what happened. Also took 900,000 people from the UK being killed in WWI for this to happen. People, generally, in England have no leverage over what happens in Ireland on either side of the border. IRA and similar groups ignore that political reality & continue to plant bombs in England killing innocent people for the next 80+ years. The 'English' get blamed in the biggest way imaginable & when people (usually Irish and Americans) say 'Brits' here they actually mean the 'English'.

Long, sorry, but it's just to highlight the way the 'English' are blamed for everything despite the 'English', ie the bulk of the population living within the borders of modern-day England having very little to do with all the things they get blamed for. It's basically this that drives me to being an English patriot and standing up for the Englishman.

But, as I said at the very start, I like the idea of a Britain, a Britain made-up of even smaller areas coming together to take on the rest of the world if necessary. The reality is a (London-based) political elite that's been the problem for 2000 years

reply to post by Merriman Weir


Couldn't have said it much better myself!

It also confused the hell out of Neo-celtics if you point out the following:

1. Modern Scots is an Old English dialect
   
2. Edinburgh is an old Anglo-Saxon town, founded by the Kingdom of Northumbria, but stolen off them by the Scots.
   
3. Most inhabitants of these Isles are the same stock as the pre-Roman times, subsequent conquests only really replacing the top of society with the bottom the same as always
   

I have many more spanners to throw into the mix, but these are my favourites.

reply to post by Merriman Weir


That Sir is the possibly the best post, well ok then two posts, I have possibly seen here on ATS.

I take my hat off to you - I may even have to 'borrow' bits, or possibly even all of it, at some time in the future - obviously giving acknowledgement to it's author whilst doing so.

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by Merriman Weir

 

Couldn't have said it much better myself!

It also confused the hell out of Neo-celtics if you point out the following:

1. Modern Scots is an Old English dialect
   
2. Edinburgh is an old Anglo-Saxon town, founded by the Kingdom of Northumbria, but stolen off them by the Scots.
   
3. Most inhabitants of these Isles are the same stock as the pre-Roman times, subsequent conquests only really replacing the top of society with the bottom the same as always
   

I have many more spanners to throw into the mix, but these are my favourites.

Language is a tricky point here. A lot of non-London 'regional' accents have elements that can be traced back to Old English. It was only diluted due to mass-population movements following the industrial revolution and early mass-communication (radio, film, TV) dominated by received pronunciation that lessened it, ironically, in England. A few minutes with any Anglo-Saxon primer shows how similar Scots and regional accents are to Old English.

Burgh and -bury name elements (usually fortified areas) are all over the place. Given the population sizes of pre-conquest Britain (especially after 6th Century famines/plagues/weather) any idea that Anglo-Saxons only ever 'took over' existing 'celtic' sites and just fortified them is fairly weak. Many of these places would have been developed from scratch as Anglo-Saxon areas, even in places like Scotland. Again, I don't really understand why this would be that big an issue for some, particularly when Scotland often bigs up their (shared) viking connection. The only real difference between Anglo-Saxons/Jutes/Frisians and the vikings is a few hundred years of technological development. Anglo-Saxons were the beta release of the Vikings: shared religious pantheon, shared family trees &c. The only difference is one just happens not to be 'English'.

DNA in Britain is like a subway sandwich. Most of us share a fvery similar bread and the real differences are the slight differences of ratio of other ingredients: "I HATE YOU AND YOUR SLIGHTLY MORE ONIONY WAYS"

Romanticism over the 18th and 19th Centuries has a lot to answer for as is the selective reading of history.