Why should I go to hell?

reply to post by Jinxy


your taking Deuteronomy 1:39 completly out of context. That section of chapter one is talking about how theThe Israelites angered God, and God told them that they would never enter the promise land. Then in Deuteronomy 1:39 he is stating that the Israelites children will enter the promise land because they were not the ones doubting God, their parents were.

What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? And if he finds it, truly, I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.
(Matthew 18:12-14 ESV)

Jesus states here that "little ones" can "go astray"

And they were bringing children to him that he might touch them, and the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, “Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.” And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands on them.
(Mark 10:13-16 ESV)

Jesus states right here " I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it" he's stating there is a choice to receive the kingdom of God even a child chooses to receive it and if they do not they will not enter heaven.

I'm sorry it's hard to swallow but we are all born into sin. If there is this supposed "age of accountability" when is it? My one year old daughter gets jealous of my son when I play with him, is this not sin?

Psalm 51:5
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psalm 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.

reply to post by Agoyahtah


I personally do not believe he said that. Him teaching to love others as you love yourself is NOT a message of division and conflict, it is a message of unity and peace. If he wanted to cause division then he never would have said those things about love.

Division causes hate not love. Those verses completely contradict everything else he taught which leads me to believe it was added in later.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by Agoyahtah

 

I personally do not believe he said that. Him teaching to love others as you love yourself is NOT a message of division and conflict, it is a message of unity and peace. If he wanted to cause division then he never would have said those things about love.

Division causes hate not love. Those verses completely contradict everything else he taught which leads me to believe it was added in later.

edit on 17-8-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

My opinion again... :-)

He Taught Love, very true. His teachings brought division in a world filled with chaos ( knowledge) though.


Again in Luke 12:49-53, the Lord said:

“I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished! Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division. For from now on five in one house will be divided: three against two, and two against three. Father will be divided against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.”

I have said it before, and say it again. When you read baptism or resurrection THINK of reincarnation. Karmic debt is being played out through Jesus and his brothers and sisters. We are all in this together.

There will come a TIME though when there will be PEACE because he will be coming back with said Peace ( Truth) which is LIFE without bondage left over from the garden. :-)

reply to post by MamaJ


What I don't understand is WHY he didn't create peace the first time around? If he had the means to do it then why fiddle-fart around for 33 years? Just to start conflict and war only to come back thousands of years later to save the day after-the-fact? That doesn't make any sense to me.

If he came to cause division then what was the point exactly? Why not just go ahead and get the peace started then and there? Because it's convenient for those who wanted people to believe the bible as word for word fact, in my opinion.

Him saying he came to tear families apart and cause strife goes COMPLETELY against EVERYTHING ELSE he taught. How could he say something like that? It's ridiculous to think he did. If what he meant was that what he said would cause division from no fault of his own then I could understand, but to say that was his whole purpose? I can't and won't believe it, sorry. It contradicts everything that he died for in my opinion and it makes ABSOLUTELY no sense in my mind.

reply to post by bigcountry08


Excuse me.. I used Deuteronomy only to show where God himself says that children had no knowledge of good and evil.. Which to me implies an age of accountability.
As does Isaiah 7:16 " ..But before the child learns to choose good and reject evil.."

psalms.. "Original sin and a Misapplied Passage" By Wayne Jackson. This reasoning makes more sense to me than believing children go to Hell before they are really old enough to choose ( and truly understand what they are choosing)

Rom 9:15 " I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
I believe that God would always choose to have mercy on children.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


One thing people don't get is this: God is not 150% about love, God principles consists of ALL aspects that involves living under his desired design.

Obviously, if your only looking for one aspect the rest won't connect. But let's be very clear: life never is and never was one dimensional, and so is God.

In the same way you have your reasons why people shouldn't have to to hell, God has his reasons why people can go to heaven by way of Jesus Christ. What ever happened to the right of authority these days? He only created every aspect that consists of life and reality as it today

Your gonna tell me that your okay with writers have the right to make whatever kind of stories however they please but your gonna tell me that The Creator of All Things doesn't have the right to set his own rules as he sees fit?

Were lucky to be able to receive his grace & favor when we don't even seek his will and design for life. (Disconnection from God and deviating from his plan is sin BTW, not necessarily 'immorality' but it is a part of it)

Consider what I've said and take a look at the passages with the contextual idea in mind. Maybe it will make sense to you this time.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by MamaJ

 

What I don't understand is WHY he didn't create peace the first time around? If he had the means to do it then why fiddle-fart around for 33 years? Just to start conflict and war only to come back thousands of years later to save the day after-the-fact? That doesn't make any sense to me.

If he came to cause division then what was the point exactly? Why not just go ahead and get the peace started then and there? Because it's convenient for those who wanted people to believe the bible as word for word fact, in my opinion.

Him saying he came to tear families apart and cause strife goes COMPLETELY against EVERYTHING ELSE he taught. How could he say something like that? It's ridiculous to think he did. If what he meant was that what he said would cause division from no fault of his own then I could understand, but to say that was his whole purpose? I can't and won't believe it, sorry. It contradicts everything that he died for in my opinion and it makes ABSOLUTELY no sense in my mind.

Its my opinion that Jesus is not the Source of creation. He is the first " man" to come to Earth. He cannot create peace before its " time". He first had to undue what was chosen by him in the garden when he was not so evolved as he was a child who learned the hard way but eventually through time ( incarnations) on earth understood what said choice caused him and his fellow man. Man as a whole here on Earth is through Jesus. Literally, beginning of course with the name Adam.

His purpose in the garden was to obey his father, but like any child we see today, they test the boundaries... Right?

Without time there is no need to rectify, BUT we inhabit the earth in a body where there is a perception of " time".

Once he evolved to Christhood, perfection was had. Yay! :-)

He came to TEACH love in a world that was chaotic BECAUSE the CHOICE in the garden ( HE MADE) had yet to be rectified with the Tree of LIFE where there is only truth and not knowledge which lead to the division!! Love your neighbor, love the sinner, turn the other cheek and so on.

The tree of life is now available to him and all of mankind NOW because the law of cause and effect was fulfilled BY HIM.

In a world with chaos its extremely hard to do what he taught "all the time" ! Dont you agree??

The second coming will be to undue the chaos and division that was created back in the garden where at that TIME he was disobedient and chose knowledge.... Poor thing. Lol

He will show us sooner than later the Tree of Life which in my opinion is..... TRUTH. Truth brings peace, does it not? Jesus IS the Truth! His life story is just as yours and mine. We have been in this together since the Beginning of Time!

I a world of time, we then make a complete circle!! Back in the garden is where we will be. History always repeats itself.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


What's more valuable? People making the choice to love, or people being forced to love? When you think about, why is that a difficult concept to grasp?

Furthermore, why do you have a problem with causing division? Surely you jest, freedom itself causes division, look at what people have been doing with their freedoms as far as history is concerned. Of course its for the convenience for believers, his goal was to get people connected to God in the first place, why be counter productive to that? Common, even small businesses do this to each other when they have opposing goals. Heck people do this to each other. The point was never peace through morality, its peace through GOD.

Obviously your perception of the whole thing falls under one premise: Those who practice their morals should be rewarded.

I challenge your: what defines morals in the first place? Surely you have considered the fact that morals are dictated by a greater power: whether it be culture or society (ahem.. or GOD.) No one culture or set of people agrees with the means and methods of others.

You question Christianity a lot but you've done nothing to questions the nature of people themselves. It should be obvious that God send His son Jesus to give people a way to Connect with Him. But you see it as: morals = salvation. Or what ever TV or society has planted decided should be the way to whatever you interpret 'heaven' to be.

To answer the question: Why should you go to hell? Here's the simple answer: you don't want to be where God is.

It should be as simple as that. His house, his rules. Don't you dare say he doesn't have the right. I have the right to the rules of my house, I wouldn't deny my Creator a right that I have had the privilege to practice.

reply to post by MamaJ


I respect your opinion, but I will have to disagree with you here. The Garden of Eden is not a literal fact story, it is only a metaphor for what Earth was before evolution came in and gave man the ability to be self-aware, the ability to do discern between good and evil.

Adam was not a real person, Eve was not a real person, they are only metaphors for the human race at the time of this epiphany of self-awareness. The fruit is self-awareness, which is why they cover themselves after eating the fruit.

God is nature, the serpent is us. Nature didn't want them to gain self-awareness because self-awareness brings about the destruction of nature and the manipulation of everything that is good. Our instinct is what told us to become self-aware, not a talking snake.

Once we turned self-aware that resulted in some having the 'me over everyone else' mentality. There was no 'me' before 'self'-awareness. Self-awareness almost always leads some to want to gain power over others, and in order for them to gain that power they must take advantage of others and deceive them. They have to step on them to reach the top.

My point is, Adam was not a real person, so to say Jesus was someone who never existed doesn't make sense in my opinion.

reply to post by GambitVII


Everyone being connected to god is to cause peace and love. 'God is love' as the bible puts it, so why would Jesus want division when division causes hate, not love?

Surely you must be the one jesting. Wanting people to connect with god and wanting to cause division totally contradict each other. 'God is love', division is hate.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by MamaJ

 

What I'm trying to say is that if karma is based on one person affecting an entire world then wouldn't what Jesus did result in the world being peaceful and without conflict today?

What he did was for peace and if his karma affects the whole world then the world would be peaceful today. This is not the case, ever since he died on the cross, the world has gotten worse and worse. Countless wars have been fought since his death, so that in my opinion goes to show what he did had no affect on the world after his death. Not saying his teachings haven't had an impact, because they have, I am proof of that, and I assume you are as well, but when you look at the grand scheme of things, it has not affected anything.

The bible states that what one reaps is what one sows, this is true only on an individual level. I think you are getting karma/dharma mixed up with action/reaction. They are somewhat related but totally different concepts. Karma/dharma is on an individual level, action/reaction (cause and effect) is based on a worldly level.

Of course if someone sets off a nuclear bomb in a city, that city will be uninhabitable for many years afterwards, but that is not karma, it is cause and effect.

Hopefully I am articulating myself well enough for you to understand what I mean. Also, thanks for actually listening instead of jumping down my throat. I can really respect that kind of quality within someone. That shows you are trying to understand and I really appreciate that.

edit on 16-8-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

edit on 16-8-2012 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

Jesus wasn't about Karma.... I am still trying to figure what your point is. first you ask why you are going to hell now you go off on this tangent? what am i missing?? what are you trying to get to ?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


you obviously didn't finish reading because i clearly called you out on your perception of "the bible is 150% about Gods love". Most Christians would say thats the case but those who have studied both the ORIGINAL target audience during the time it was written would say what I've said. (go read it, im not gonna pamper you by quoting something you can just scroll up to read)

Atheists =/= Christians

Surely that makes sense, God sent His Son to make way for people to get to GOD, not to get people to live under the arbitrary definition of peace. (I mean, if people don't want to be with God, why get those who don't want it to be under His house? Surely that makes enough sense) Your interpretation of 'peace' is completely subjective and is a hindrance to understanding the answers to YOUR own questions.

Only a fool reads halfway and makes a conclusion.

reply to post by GambitVII


I admit I only read the first half of your comment.

Trying to get everyone to connect to god is to get everyone to love. 'God is love', you use the word 'subjective' as if it matters. Everyone knows what true peace is, that means everyone living in harmony and loving one another. Isn't that what Jesus taught? To love one another?

To bring Jesus here only to cause division IS counterproductive to connecting everyone to god. If everyone was connected to god, a.k.a. LOVE, then there would be peace. If you deny that then you don't understand what love or peace are.

What does being an atheist have anything to do with me? Are you assuming I'm atheist? It's better not to assume something about someone you know nothing about. Just a friendly word of advice.

Division =/= Love

reply to post by votan


You are missing the post I was replying to in that quote. I'm not the one who brought karma up, I'm just going where the thread takes me.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


That is one of the things jesus taught, He also taught that only through him you could get to God and his kingdom.
You are missing out on some of the teachings of Jesus... the most important one and the reason why he died in the first place.

reply to post by votan


He said the only way to god was through him. I interpret that as through his teachings. If you follow what he teaches and you love everyone and everyone loves everyone else, we would have heaven on Earth.

Of course, the church twisted what he meant into believing he died on the cross, but that's all part of their agenda.

I'm confused again. If Jesus wasn't ratted out by Judas he would not have been crucified. Jesus did not voluntarily give himself up to the Romans for death. Did I miss something?

"Father, why hast thou forsaken me". Again, another confusing Bible entry.

Originally posted by InTheLight

"Father, why hast thou forsaken me". Again, another confusing Bible entry.

edit on 17-8-2012 by InTheLight because: (no reason given)

It's my understanding that when Jesus died on the cross he took all of mankinds sin, past, present and future onto himself. God, in that moment, had to turn away from Jesus because He cannot look upon sin.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
I can't and won't believe it, sorry. It contradicts everything that he died for in my opinion and it makes ABSOLUTELY no sense in my mind.

The truth will NEVER make any sense as long as you continue to believe in satan's lies.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1



New International Version (©1984)
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--
New Living Translation (©2007)
God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God.

English Standard Version (©2001)
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

International Standard Version (©2008)
For by such grace you have been saved through faith. This does not come from you; it is the gift of God

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
For it is by his grace that we have been saved through faith, and this faith was not from you, but it is the gift of God,

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
God saved you through faith as an act of kindness. You had nothing to do with it. Being saved is a gift from God.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

American King James Version
For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:



I understand what you are getting act but by denying christs sacrifice you are missing the whole point of him coming to earth.


Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

believing that you can only enter the kingdom of God by doing good works and being a good person is one of the first sales pitches by the Roman Catholic Church. The Belief in Christ is not the way into the Kingdom of God its in his teachings so do good works to earn you way into heaven.

This is actually extremely oppressive because honestly you can neve achieve being good and following Jesus teachings to a T because we have a fallen nature and that was the reason why Christ came to us in the first place... because we cannot do it on our own.