Revelations 13:10 - Christian "persecution" in the end times.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Hi sk0rpi0n,

Good morning, I saw your thread and found myself curious as to how these verses/times will play out as well. The verse you referred to Revelation 13:10:

"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints".

"Εἴ τις αἰχμαλωσίαν συνάγει Ei tis aichmalōsian sunagei".
I agree with Barnes' Notes on this verse:

The statement is general, and is intended to make use of a general or prevalent truth with reference to this particular case. The general truth is, that people will, in the course of things, be dealt with according to their character and their treatment of others; that nations characterized by war and conquests will be subject to the evils of war and conquest - or that they may expect to share the same lot which they have brought on others. This general statement accords with what the Saviour says in Matthew 26:52; "All they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." This has been abundantly illustrated in the world; and it is a very important admonition to nations not to indulge in the purposes of conquest and to individuals not to engage in strife and litigation.

"be dealt with according to their character and their treatment of others". I think this is a important aspect when it comes to understanding how wonderfully God uses judgement so impartially and perfectly. I see this verse playing out in this very way...example: the wicked mother who falsely accuses their daughter...or neighbor...and visa versa...etc. Even if this mother believes herself to be correct in her accusation...if there be any wickedness in her heart it will backfire (like the same kind of judgement will be applied to her)... as it will in every single person (individually, and justly so) will occur. This verse Revelations 13:10 is a general verse that covers all aspects of wickedness..I see it as the wicked eating the wicked (kind of thing) and the trying of the hearts "core" to the saints". Like refining a precious metal...only the best surfaces. (Honestly, isn't that our hope? That, the corruption end, and only what is good to survive?).



I see this reaffirming the verse:

Revelation 15:3
And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

"just and true are thy ways"....even though we cannot understand His ways, I see that the way everything plays out, we will come to understand, like the "in hindsight" way.... not a moment sooner.

We are saturated with verses that confirm that evil shall slay the wicked. The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth. The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation. The wicked watcheth the righteous, and seeketh to slay him. The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes. Because of the voice of the enemy, because of the oppression of the wicked: for they cast iniquity upon me, and in wrath they hate me.

Just to give a recent example applied to my own experience:
Psalm 39:1
I said, I will take heed to my ways, that I sin not with my tongue: I will keep my mouth with a bridle, while the wicked is before me.

I recently was falsely accused of a crime. I was not asked if the accusation was true, I was instead asked to confirm the accusation. It was right for me to hold my tongue and say nothing. By not speaking, I was further accused of being evasive...so without saying a word the wicked in my presence cast iniquity on me. At the same token, I am held responsible for having interaction with those who would falsely accuse? Are we not warned about having no part of those who hold onto evil? By interacting and engaging in "strife" although it is not considered a crime based on man's law....it is a crime based on God's law. All forms of wickedness will be dealt with accordingly. How can good come out of evil? Ah, that's another whole thread lol.

Have you ever been in the presense of a person who pretend to care about you, only to trip you when you walk and injure you? Same concept here imo. We are warned just as a parent warns a child not to touch a hot stove....if the child touches that stove he will be burned, and will learn the stove is hot....if the child trusts his mother words, he will obey her and avoid the pain.

So, I hope I explained the way I understand the verse. I think it applies to all people.... if you think about it, in America...last poll claimed that around 87% claimed to be Christian yes? I suppose when this cleansing has been completed, we will know how far off that number really is?

From some Christians point of view the devil only care about manipulating Christian souls since he already owns all other souls because only they are the chosen people of god.

That comes from beliving insanly in duality views of what is percived as right and wrong.

Being a christ means from greek being anointed (Khristós, meaning 'anointed) and to be anointed you first have to know god thru gnosis where you truely get answers from outside yourself from within without letting your ego and mind interfere and control your understanding.

The true Christians are the people who find their own connection with god. The true AntiChrists are the people who are knowingly or not knowingly standing in the way for people to achive that connection with god thru their learnt ideas of what right and wrong.

Many who belive they are Christians are in fact anti-Christians because they are not spiritually seeking the thruth/connection but belive they falsely already know all that is needed to know. I do definetly not have all the answers and that is ok.

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

Dear sk0rpi0n,

I agree with you, it does not say that only Christians get persecuted. It wasn't just Jews that were persecuted under Hitler either. I don't think it says that persecution or wars would ever stop and they haven't. I would assume that all who refuse to worship the beast or take a mark would be persecuted. I think a lot of atheists will refuse to take the mark. There are atheists on this site that would refuse to take an RFID chip and you can read the threads and know that. Whatever the one world religion is, it would have to have aspects of Christian and Muslim belief with a bit of the New Age thrown in.

But the one world religon could be the thruth behind all that is and not the idol that we are chasing when we belive in a lesser god (or lesser view of god) than the only one, that creates and is all, and is hidden in all spiritual knowledge.

I think there are parts of the bible that are written by antichrists and it explains why heaven have not arrived yeet and the funny thing is that humans struggle against every move that is made to bring it here by conditioning from a book changed by poleticians that ruled. The middle ages are what happens when you fundamentalisticly belive in a human created thruth that does not fit the reality behind everything.

Originally posted by foodstamp
Ohh, and on the note of a one world religion... It will be buddhism... You'll just call it something else...

The funniest thing about it is that it's philosophy has progressivly taken over christianity, new age, wicca, atheism, Islam you name it...Because, well, it's the truth....

edit on 8/11/1212 by foodstamp because: typo

I do not know if buddhism is the thruth but I have not found any real faulty logic in it, but that does not mean there is not.

I belive that reality is of a nondual nature where creator and creation is the same thing and everything is connected on different levels. To put it plainly All is ONE. And when you go from that hypothesis that seem to fit very well with spiritual awakening and think with your mind you will probably sooner of later come up with the golden rule as the way of behaving.

But me being 100% sure that ALL is ONE, does not give me proof that reincarnation and karma works as I think it does in my mind and I will not limit my mind by thinking, I know the thruth already because that is a trap that might make me miss something. I also are not sure if I get to keep the ego/mind or part of it when I leave. Well I will just have to figure it out when I leave my body and continue on. At least I know the charkra system seems to be true or close enought to not make much difference.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Well, what is the focus after Revelation 4:1 as in regards to Christians still left on Earth? Practice some contextual theology. The persecutions begin at the beginning of the great tribulation, or in other words at the mid-way point of Daniel's 70 th week when the AC marches on and takes over Jerusalem as a capital.

In the first place, the whole point of the book Revelation is to encourage the Christian community in a time of persecution.
It was originally written for that purpose in the time of the Roman persecution.
So "the persecution of Christians" is what the book is interested in talking about.
If you had in your hands a book which was patently a flying manual for aircraft pilots, you would know that every part of it was related to that theme; you would not quibble over the fact that one of the sentences did not mention the word "flying".
Similarly Revelation is about the persecution of Christians, its reasons and its consequences, and the way that Christians should react, so every part of it relates to that theme.

In the context of ch13; the chapter up to that point has been about the Beast's war on the God of heaven and his worshippers; It is the "war on the saints" mentioned in v7 that makes the "call for the endurance and faith of the saints" necessary. v8 says that everybody in the world will worship the Beast except "those whose names were written in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain". The comments made in vv9-10 are modified quotations from other parts of the Bible where the originals are about the troubles faced by God's people. That is the whole point of this passage and indeed the whole book- the troubles faced by God's people.

Taking the larger context, chs 12-13 belong together as a sequence which might be subtitled "the wrath of Satan". Ch12 is a bit of back-story which explains why Satan feels revengeful against the Christian community, while ch13 outlines what he does about it (ie setting up the Beast to persecute them). So that again shows how the whole point of this chapter is the persecution of Christians.

The motivation for the persecution, as we learn from the rest of the chapter, is refusal to join in the worship of the Beast.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
1. How exactly would the force who "takes into captivity" mess with Christians living in a powerful country, like say America? Assuming the anti-christ is non-American, is he going to send forces over to the US to systematically attack only the christians?

The scenario of ch13 assumes a situation in which Christianity is not politically powerful.
Not the immediate future, then.
You need to look over the book Revelation as a whole and notice that the cataclysmic events of ch6 ("the four horsemen") come before these chapters.
Your arguments are based on current political realities, but if the whole world has been torn apart in the interim by plague, war, and famine, bringing death to a quarter of the globe, as described in ch6, then the current political realities won't apply.

3. Is this enemy going to spare the Muslims, hindus, sikhs, buddhists, etc.? What about the mormons, JWs etc.?

The distinction outlined in the second half of the chapter is between those who are prepared to worship the Beast, and those who are not.
If the Beast does not attempt to ban other gods, but allows them to be worshipped alongside himself, a large part of the world would have no problem with that.
As far as I know, it would pose no problems for Hindus and Buddhists- "You want to be worshipped? Okey-doke, we'll just add you to the pantheon, then"
Everybody who says "All gods are the same, it doesn't matter who you worship" are going to have no problem with it, and that viewpoint seems to be growing in the modern world.
The only stand-outs would be those who stubbornly hold to "You shall have no other gods but me".
Even some of those may be deceived. If the Beast is a literal "antichrist", ie someone claiming to be the returned Christ, then some parts of the Christian community may be vulnerable to that deception.
Similarly, the Shiite form of the Muslim religion offers concepts like the Madhi, which the Beast might be able to exploit.
Anyway the criterion given for persecution is "not being willing to worship the Beast", so without trying to predict in detail, it comes down to a question of who meets that criterion.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


The bible doesn't say the A/C and his people gets the whole world, he only get's the M.E. and then Micah 5 comes into play where the ships of Kittim blow their asses back to the gates of Babylon. They will march on Jerusalem to take it as a capitol. In fact, theyre already calling for it and have been for quite a while. That's how we know we're so close to the 8th head of the Beast rising to power.

I supplement my previous reply by adding what I wrote on this verse in my thread on "War on the Saints".

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -----------
"If anyone has an ear, let him hear"

That instruction can be found in the gospels, attached to the parable of the Sower, which is interesting. It may be warning the believers facing this crisis not to become those who "when tribulation or persecution arise because of the word, immediately they fall away". (Mark ch.4 v17)

It's also a refrain in the "letters to the seven churches". This is important, because there are two things happening in those letters.
On the one hand, the churches are being warned about the twin dangers of persecution and spiritual seduction.
On the other hand, there's encouragement in every letter for those who can "conquer" the dangers. Every letter, one way or another, reminds them of that promise of eternal life.

So repeating that comment here reminds us that, although there's trouble close at hand, there's also the promise of Life on the other side of the trouble.

"If anyone is to be taken captive, to captivity he goes"

This comes from a little verse in Jeremiah, about the various fates awaiting the inhabitants of Jerusalem, when the city was to be conquered by the Babylonians;

"Those who are for pestilence, to pestilence
And those who are for the sword, to the sword.
Those who are for famine, to famine
And those who are for captivity, to captivity"- Jeremiah ch.15 v2

In other words, their immediate fate would be inescapable.
On the other hand, we all know that this Exile was followed by the Return, when Jerusalem and the Temple were rebuilt.
So anything that reminds us about the fate of Jerusalem also reminds us of the end of the story

There's trouble close at hand, and in the immediate future the trouble may be inescapable.
Nevertheless, there's the prospect of Life on the other side of the trouble.

"If anyone slays with the sword, with the sword must he be slain"

This sounds like an echo of the second line in Jeremiah's verse, but it's really quoting the rebuke made by Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane, in the arrest scene;
"All who take the sword will perish by the sword" (Matthew ch.26 v52).
In effect, he's telling the disciples "This is going to happen- you can't fight it".
Which is the same point that Jeremiah was making.
On the other hand, once again, we know the end of the story.
The arrest and the crucifixion were followed by the Resurrection.

So the unspoken message is the same as it was in the previous case.
There is trouble close at hand, and in the immediate future the trouble may be inescapable.
Nevertheless, there is the prospect of Life on the other side of the trouble.

"Here is a call for the endurance and the faith of the saints"

The endurance and the faith are necessary because there is trouble close at hand.
On the other hand, the endurance and the faith become possible because there is the promise of Life on the other side of the trouble.

Those who believe in the promise are the ones who will be able to "overcome".





Revelation;War on the saints

reply to post by apushforenlightment


Dear apushforenlightenment,

But the one world religon could be the thruth behind all that is and not the idol that we are chasing when we belive in a lesser god (or lesser view of god) than the only one, that creates and is all, and is hidden in all spiritual knowledge. I think there are parts of the bible that are written by antichrists and it explains why heaven have not arrived yeet and the funny thing is that humans struggle against every move that is made to bring it here by conditioning from a book changed by poleticians that ruled. The middle ages are what happens when you fundamentalisticly belive in a human created thruth that does not fit the reality behind everything.

I don't buy the "if we all agree then it is true" philosophy. I think we all see a part of the truth, I haven't met anyone with perfect understanding yet. You question why we do not start in heaven, why we are challenged on earth. It is not because of a book, it is because we need to be challenged to even begin to understand what choices we will make, the choices that truly define us. The only time you really know who you are is when you have faced the challenges, made choices and are satisfied with your decisions. There is no cheating on the life exam, there is no study course and there are no easy answers.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


reply to post by NOTurTypical


Hello to you two! I hope everyhting is well. NuT and Lonwolf, check out that thread of mine about New Age religion trying to override older religions. www.abovetopsecret.com...
I think it deserves alot of attention, because its message is VERY important. So far people that visited it were just, seemingly, Illuminati sympathizers. All ATS need to be informed. I don't want popularity, I want people to see that something very powerfull could currently destroy all cultures... just with a simple concept instead of a weapon.

"Some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them."

-- Atheist Sam Harris, The End of Faith

Originally posted by swan001
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Hello to you two! I hope everyhting is well. NuT and Lonwolf, check out that thread of mine about New Age religion trying to override older religions. www.abovetopsecret.com...
I think it deserves alot of attention, because its message is VERY important. So far people that visited it were just, seemingly, Illuminati sympathizers. All ATS need to be informed. I don't want popularity, I want people to see that something very powerfull could currently destroy all cultures... just with a simple concept instead of a weapon.

edit on 11-8-2012 by swan001 because: (no reason given)

New Age it the in thing nowadays. New Age religion and Starbucks apparently.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


The Bible focuses on Christian/Jewish persecution because it is a Judeo-Christian text. But it actually does include persecution for anyone who doesn't take the mark of the beast or submit to the AntiChrist's government. The Bible gives a specific warning to Jews/Christians since that is the target audience but also gives general warnings as well.

Also, because the end time government is led by the anti-Christ, obviously the target of wrath would be Christians. It would be a spiritual warfare targeting followers of God but that doesn't mean others won't get caught in the cross-fire.

1. How exactly would the force who "takes into captivity" mess with Christians living in a powerful country, like say America? Assuming the anti-christ is non-American, is he going to send forces over to the US to systematically attack only the christians?

2. Wont the governments of countries with a large christian population resist anybody who tries to harm their citizens on their soil? Or do christians imagine that their government would be working WITH this anti-christian enemy?

America might collapse by then. Or the rapture might occur which would seriously reduce the population of true Christians willing to rebel. Or we would be invaded by stronger military forces. Nuclear war. So much could happen.

3. Is this enemy going to spare the Muslims, hindus, sikhs, buddhists, etc.? What about the mormons, JWs etc.?

According to the Bible, the AC will persecute anyone not willing to submit. We're told great and small, rich and poor, etc.

And on a closing clarification note, the Bible does mention there will be resistance. It's not like the AC comes along and everyone either completely submits or gets killed. There is a surviving resistance.

reply to post by AshleyD

Also, because the end time government is led by the anti-Christ, obviously the target of wrath would be Christians. It would be a spiritual warfare targeting followers of God but that doesn't mean others won't get caught in the cross-fire.

If the target of wrath were to be christians, then the anti-christ needs to operate in areas with a significantly large concentration of christians... i.e - North and South America, Europe, Russia, Australia and parts of Asia. All of whom can combine to form a formidable military force posing a serious challenge.

Even if these countries are weakened by natural calamities or political collapse... it wont make them sitting ducks for foreign persecution. The current theory about the anti-christs regime being able to successfully target christians living in these regions is weak as it simply assumes the anti-christ would be able to get his hands on christians.

reply to post by apushforenlightment

From some Christians point of view the devil only care about manipulating Christian souls since he already owns all other souls because only they are the chosen people of god.

This is pretty much it. Its the old christian "we're right, you're wrong" argument.

However, revelations 13:10 describes political turmoil affecting everybody. The "saints" whoever they are, are being instructed to endure. Just because its a "christian" book does not mean saints = christians.

reply to post by DISRAELI

If the Beast does not attempt to ban other gods, but allows them to be worshipped alongside himself, a large part of the world would have no problem with that.
As far as I know, it would pose no problems for Hindus and Buddhists- "You want to be worshipped? Okey-doke, we'll just add you to the pantheon, then"

I disagree with this.
Hindus might consider Jesus as divine or as an incarnation.... but they will not simply offer worship to anybody who simply demands it... especially the anti-christ who goes around killing people.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

I come back to the point that the cataclysmic events of Revelation ch6 intervene before the Beast arrives on the scene.
Adolf Hitler was idolised by Germans for leading Germany out of their post-war nadir.
Any regime which was rescuing the world from the sheer chaos and anarchy which would result from ch6 would surely receive the same kind of adulation from the world at large .Hindus and Buddhists would be as grateful as everybody else, and paying divine honours to the leader would seem justified.
That is one scenario which makes it plausible that stand-outs would be in a minority.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Let's just isolate America as one example of a high Christian population. Let's say the rapture does occur. That would take away millions. Then California could have 'the big one' which would destroy the western coast. Perhaps Yellowstone would blow and take out the midwest and then some. Add in disease, famine, and a breakdown of infrastructure and economic collapse. Hitler was able to accomplish quite a bit even without all that.

If you try to look at it from the AC rising right now, then I can see where you're coming from. But we believe he will rise during total chaos mentioned above. And even then his reign doesn't run smoothly and he encounters a lot of opposition.

It's really not that hard to imagine. His focus will be on Christians and Jews but anyone who opposes his system will be persecuted.

Originally posted by borntowatch
The Word of God warns Christians, the gospel is written to encourage Christians.

No, the "Bible" warns Christians, not the "Words of God." God didn't write that book, did he?

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by DISRAELI

 

If the Beast does not attempt to ban other gods, but allows them to be worshipped alongside himself, a large part of the world would have no problem with that.
As far as I know, it would pose no problems for Hindus and Buddhists- "You want to be worshipped? Okey-doke, we'll just add you to the pantheon, then"

I disagree with this.
Hindus might consider Jesus as divine or as an incarnation.... but they will not simply offer worship to anybody who simply demands it... especially the anti-christ who goes around killing people

I disagree also. As a member of the Wiccan Religion, I would never fall down and worship any being not deserving of it. If there is ever a true Anti-Christ born, I am sorely afraid he will have a hard time raising an army, and a harder time pushing his agenda. I think most people would tell him to just bugger off.