The Once and Future Wisdom Gospel of Thomas

reply to post by Sweetmystery

reply to post by Sweetmystery


I don't want to rain on your parade, and if you truly get something out of either Thomas or this fellow's interpretation of it, great, but by the same token, I would hate for you to be deceived by something being represented as something that it is not.

Nag Hammadi is a testament to a failed belief system. In some ways, it is sad, because those texts were really important to some people, a long time ago, but the reality of it is that there was a battle, of sorts, between Orthodox Christianity and Gnostic Christianity, and the Gnostics lost. As one who has studied both views, I understand why the Gnostic view lost out -- it is ultimately incompatible with Judaism.

I struggled, when I wrote that other post, with a simile that explained how far off the rails this guy is, and the best I could come up with was "reading a biography on Ronald Reagan to gain insights on the presidency of Barack Obama", but even that doesn't quite capture it.

Sorry.

reply to post by Americanist


Wow! What a gift! Thank you so much. That was truly special--

What a Sweet Heart you are---how did you know what that would do---very meaningful.

Thank you (paste here the sticky face for tears of joy and many blessings to you too)

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by Sweetmystery

 

I don't want to rain on your parade, and if you truly get something out of either Thomas or this fellow's interpretation of it, great, but by the same token, I would hate for you to be deceived by something being represented as something that it is not.

Nag Hammadi is a testament to a failed belief system. In some ways, it is sad, because those texts were really important to some people, a long time ago, but the reality of it is that there was a battle, of sorts, between Orthodox Christianity and Gnostic Christianity, and the Gnostics lost. As one who has studied both views, I understand why the Gnostic view lost out -- it is ultimately incompatible with Judaism.

I struggled, when I wrote that other post, with a simile that explained how far off the rails this guy is, and the best I could come up with was "reading a biography on Ronald Reagan to gain insights on the presidency of Barack Obama", but even that doesn't quite capture it.

Sorry.

I Love Your dog on your avatar---what a darling.

No, I am not duped by much--- I have not studied religions but I have a little knowledge of history---not enough to say I know anything though.

Thanks for you concern, I think most of us are digging our treasures from a whole lot of different places and we are all capable of tossing out what does not work for us and keeping what does---(seems to me Love always works the best of all)

This book is just some more Wonderful and insightful information to ponder and add if we like. Better to open the doors and see what we see and then make up our own minds.

No one wants to be told anything anymore, and that is a good thing. We listen and we learn and we take what we need and put the rest back.

As for your Reagan and Obama simile, I think that is very good. That makes your point loud and clear .

I still like Lachlen's book, I love the message of freedom and though I am not going to be sitting and doing breathing practice (though it might be good for some, I have no doubt about that)--- Instead, I will sing really loud, that gets the breath going pretty good

Originally posted by Sweetmystery
I Love Your dog on your avatar---what a darling.

That is Oscar, who was my wife's dog, and is now my only responsibility in this world. I made him my avatar because he always makes me smile, and I thought that the negative imagery that far too many people posted might be contrasted by my little furry friend. I am glad that you like him.

I most certainly encourage people to explore their spirituality, but caution that one needs to seriously think through the basis on which we place our faith. Whether organized or disorganized, far too many gurus or masters want religion on terms that meets their personal financial goals.

I am a theistic skeptic -- not a popular position, but one which results in the critical analysis of pretty much everything that people try to push across my desk, whether psychic, pseudo-religion, or "other".

reply to post by rwfresh


thank you,yes you are correct!
but i always use that line for what i believe,and selassie was a man as well!

Jesus was familiar with Greek philosophy and yes, this will be a shock, Buddhism. The geographical and chronological area of Christ’s life was a major crossroads for trade. It is my contention that ancient people (especially someone interested in theology and philosophy such as Jesus) would debate and explore the ideas of their neighbors.
Note, that I am not claiming that Jesus visited India. If he did or did not is not a necessary requirement for him being familiar with outside teachings.
As for Dan Brown, that is the same old elitist interpretation * of Christ’s message (with a few car chases thrown in). I believe that (and this is contentious and not necessary for my main thesis) the Holy Grail is Christ’s true message that has been lost (until now!). Cups are like signifiers that hold meaning ( signifieds, metaphorically speaking Christ’s blood , the meaning the words hold).
Yes, it is contentious as to when the Gnostic Gospels were written. However, to dismiss them as later then the gospels that made it into the censored Bible, ( the Biblical gospels were also written long after Christ’s time) is to dismiss academically validated scholars ( such as en.wikipedia.org... ).
Also, Constantine had a huge influence on what books got into the Bible. To deny that is to show ignorance of history.

* Jesus gave birth to a hidden line of elites and it is our job to find them and submit to them.

“Nag Hammadi is a testament to a failed belief system.”

Adjensen
Have you been reading the posts? No one is denying that anti-Christianity with its emphasis on blind obedience etc took over. The reason is obvious, such a doctrine is incompatible with getting support (money for churches etc) . Actually, many many Gnostic messages made it into the censored Bible!
Why were the www.gnosis.org... gospels hidden? Because if one was found with them that meant death by the state. Such persecution lasted for centuries, exterminating en.wikipedia.org... and en.wikipedia.org... .

“I understand why the Gnostic view lost out -- it is ultimately incompatible with Judaism.”
Adjensen
So you are saying that early Roman Christianity was pro Jewish? Read the gospels in the New Testament!
And what about en.wikipedia.org... I guess he cannot be Christian because he also incorporated Greek philosophy into Christianity!

reply to post by adjensen


Adjensen, thanks to alerting us to the blatant 'mis'assumptions within this book. Just by looking at the Essenes Wikipedia, I can already verify that some if not all the things you mentioned are mistaken assumptions by the author. The fact the author is offering this book free on some "scammish website" (I say this because it looks awfully like other websites that claim to do something or have some secret to get your money although this one makes no such attempt).
I am no expert about religious history, however it is unknown the exact history of where Jesus went during a specified period of his life, so while its unfair to say he was with the Essenes, I don't think its fair to entirely rule out the possibility (unless there is evidence he didn't like them which I don't know).

However the analysis the author provides regarding the content within the book of Thomas, whether accurate or not, does provide enlightening information of the relationship between Christianity and science. As with ALL spiritual information, I take it as a grain of the truth and pool it together with all my other learnings to find my own path.

With regards to "breathing," while it has not been scientifically proven to cure cancer (which is something that would be difficult to prove anyways), breathing (specifically deep breathing according to the Pranayama Yoga tradition) is proven to increase oxygen intake efficiency, clear the mind, reduce anxiety, stress and blood pressure. Stress causes inflammation which weakens our immune system and makes us more susceptible to sickness (study done by psychologists with people who were subjectively stressed and non-stressed subjected to nasal drops with the cold virus showed that the stress group were substantially more prone to sickness).
I have also read that the antithesis to cancer is oxygen, cancer thrives in places where oxygen has trouble reaching.... where I read this was a controversial book so I can't verify if this is indeed true.
Also exercise (which induces breathing) has lots of physical benefits, including mood elevation and reduced anxiety. I think when he says that breathing is more powerful when we are not doing physical activity it might be because our mind becomes clear and open to our true spiritual goals so that we may act and be inspired to create with alignment to those goals (thats just my own assumption.

Nice to see some more really good responses.. Yes, uncovering and revealing documents and history that show us how Christianity is based on an intentional mis-leading re-working of the message Jesus was really teaching. It is good to know that we cannot stop there and we have to keep going and find God for ourself, outside of churches and religions, but that God is right Here and Now with us, within each of us and everywhere at once .

Personally I think we are as much a child of God as Jesus was and that is what he was saying. That was his point in his teachings, that God and Light are one and we are made of Light. We are not God, but I think God is being all that we are---there is a difference.

I think Jesus was teaching metaphysics, in the light of Oneness, the Absolute. And I think his message has to be read from some understanding of the subjective view as the One Reality.

Even if Jesus did not study or know about the teaching of Buddha or Lao Tse, the Truth is the same in the final view. What Is, Reality, God the One That Is being the Totality of all we see and all we do not see---turns out to bring us all to the same Love, Peace and Tranquillity and Understanding--- for everyone.

You can be a great religious scholar, but if you have not found who you are, if you have not found the Light in your own Heart---then all the education in the world is not going to bring you Peace and Joy and Freedom.

I have no religion, and I am no scholar but I am not without God in my life. I have found that The Truth, Reality, God is not in any religion and It is not limited to any system. The Truth, Godhead, Infinite All includes all things, it includes religions but it is not subject to any of them. The Sourceless Source of Being, of Life Itself is being All That Is and is the Life we are. All that is, is within the Life and Light and Mind of this Unbound, Illimitable Isness of the Ineffable Divine Mind.

I did however have a wonderful teacher. Here are some of his words I think most of you will appreciate.

"Every teacher, book, writer, practitioner, sage, guru or peanut vendor, by whatever name, title or label they go by, is an aspect of the Awareness (Identity) "we" are. We take the book from the shelf most likely to render a specific service at a given moment. Exactly so, we have appeared to go to the philosophy, teacher, church, friend, stranger or peanut vendor that has unfolded as sufficient for the moment--but that philosophy, teacher, church, friend or stranger is WITHIN the awareness WE are. So is the peanut vendor. We are forever looking at our Self.".....William Samuel

He was a brilliant man who also said (in a 400 page book) that the Second coming of the Messiah is when we find the Truth within our self, when we discover that Same Light that was in Christ Jesus is Within You---when we find that what Jesus spoke is not just about him being the Son of God, but that we are all This Son of God. We are the First Born and we are here to re-claim our Inheritance. That being born again is to find re-discover our Real Identity, right here in the world, and find that we are made of Eternal Life just as the Awareness of God's Being is Forever and Now and Always.

Anyway, that's my shortest synopsis and I will just let it go at that-- I know what my own Heart has found and I trust myself.

Thanks for all the good comments. I hope you all found Lachlen's book and are enjoying it and finding much recognition of the Light of your self in his work!

Originally posted by wittgenstein
Also, Constantine had a huge influence on what books got into the Bible. To deny that is to show ignorance of history.

No. Constantine had no influence on the determination of Biblical Canon.

Around 140AD, a heretic named Marcion wrote out what he thought Christian canonical scripture should be. For he and his followers, that was the letters of Paul and a redacted version of Luke. In response to this, the orthodox church began to develop their own. The earliest surviving list is the Muratorian Canon, dated to 200AD, which had the four Gospels, Acts, 13 Letters of Paul, 1 & 2 John, Jude and The Apocalypse of Peter. So the books in the Bible were largely as we now know them over a hundred years before Constantine.

Contrary to popular belief, Biblical Canon was never discussed at the Council of Nicaea.

Actually, many many Gnostic messages made it into the censored Bible!

You are welcome to post them.

Why were the (Gnostic) gospels hidden? Because if one was found with them that meant death by the state.

Actually, in the early church, that was not the case. If you were found to be a heretic, you were given the opportunity to recant, and if you wouldn't, they just kicked you out of the church. Later on, yeah, things got out of hand, but at the time of Nag Hammadi, the Gnostics were already on the wane, and Athanasius' letter in 367 resulted in the destruction of non-canonical heretical works (there are plenty of non-canonical orthodox works still around, so it was just the heresy that mattered, not the canonical nature of it) and the person who hid those books most likely did so to avoid their destruction, and quite likely intended to go dig them up again later.

So you are saying that early Roman Christianity was pro Jewish? Read the gospels in the New Testament!

No, I am saying that Christ was Jewish, which puts a pretty big block on him being the Bringer of Gnosis. If he really was an Aeon, and found himself born a Jew, the first thing that he would do once he was able would be to repudiate it. Instead, he was clearly a very devout Jew, which means that the Christian Gnostics were completely wrong, because Judaism and Gnosticism are completely incompatible.

It has nothing to do with the Romans or anything that happened after the first century.

“No. Constantine had no influence on the determination of Biblical Canon. Around 140AD, a heretic named Marcion wrote out what he thought Christian canonical scripture should be. For he and his followers, that was the letters of Paul and a redacted version of Luke. In response to this, the orthodox church began to develop their own. The earliest surviving list is the Muratorian Canon, dated to 200AD, which had the four Gospels, Acts, 13 Letters of Paul, 1 & 2 John, Jude and The Apocalypse of Peter. So the books in the Bible were largely as we now know them over a hundred years before Constantine.”
Adjensen
At the time of Nicea there were many versions of Christianity, none of which were created by Constantine. However, he decided what version of Christianity would become orthodox (not in the “Greek orthodox” sense, in the “established norm” sense.) and he made sure that the version that won would preach obedience and submissiveness.

“Actually, in the early church, that was not the case. If you were found to be a heretic, you were given the opportunity to recant, and if you wouldn't, they just kicked you out of the church.”
Adjensen
OK. I stand corrected. Actually, I should have been clearer. I never meant that EVERY “heretic” (actually followers of Constantine’s version of Christianity were the true heretics, as they refused to follow Christ’s teachings) were murdered. Many were simply threatened.

“No, I am saying that Christ was Jewish, which puts a pretty big block on him being the Bringer of Gnosis.”
Adjensen
en.wikipedia.org... I never said that Jesus was not Jewish!! I said that he was influenced by other ideas. However, he was primarily Jewish.

“You are welcome to post them.”
adjensen
www.biblegateway.com...
In other words there is secret knowledge passed on to the disciples etc. Of course this is speculation, but a reasonable reason for Jesus saying that is that his Luke 17;21 ( I gave the site but ATS did not take it!) was truly revolutionary and be violently suppressed by the elite.
www.biblegateway.com...
John 10: 33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods” (again the site did not stick at ATS)
www.youtube.com...
I have many many more but at this moment I do not have the time to list them all.
This next site is not so good. I have included it because it does have a few good points.
en.wikipedia.org...


“which means that the Christian Gnostics were completely wrong, because Judaism and Gnosticism are completely incompatible.”
Adjensen
Actually, Jewish tradition has many Gnostic (Gnosticism is not exclusively Christian) beliefs.
en.wikipedia.org...

My views are plato.stanford.edu... Unfortunately that word is misused today. I do not believe in (or care about) angels etc. That is geometry, a physical form that an angelic being takes etc( I really do not care if angels exist or not. That is sociology, who are sub-commanders etc, I am interested in spirituality!). I believe ( quantum mechanics) that all is one. I also believe in plato.stanford.edu... What new agers call metaphysics is not metaphysics. Meta- Physics!
www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by wittgenstein
At the time of Nicea there were many versions of Christianity, none of which were created by Constantine.

No, not really. The orthodox church was fairly well organized at that point. The Council of Nicaea was a meeting of that universal church.

However, he decided what version of Christianity would become orthodox (not in the “Greek orthodox” sense, in the “established norm” sense.) and he made sure that the version that won would preach obedience and submissiveness.

No, that isn't historically correct. Nicaea was called to resolve a conflict within the orthodox Church on a concept known as Arianism, which was the minority teaching that Christ was "lessor" than the Father. Distilled down, the question was whether Christ had always existed, or if he had been created, after the fact, by the Father.

I'm not sure how the resolution of that issue "preach obedience and submissiveness", I'm going to have to disagree with you there.

“No, I am saying that Christ was Jewish, which puts a pretty big block on him being the Bringer of Gnosis.”
Adjensen
en.wikipedia.org... I never said that Jesus was not Jewish!! I said that he was influenced by other ideas. However, he was primarily Jewish.

I never said that you said that, I said that he IS Jewish, and so the Gnostic Christian claim that he was the Bringer of Gnosis is invalid.

“You are welcome to post them.”

Can you please post them as quotes, not as web site links? It's annoying to have to keep opening windows and then come back here to respond.

However, the first one, which speaks of teachings just for the Apostles is not Gnostic -- a Christian can find everything that they need for salvation in the Bible, but a Gnostic Christian had to go find a master, convince him that he was "worthy" of the Gnosis, and after years of study, maybe he'd get it.

If there were, in fact, teachings solely given to the Apostles, it can be safely assumed that it wasn't something anyone but them needed to know.

“which means that the Christian Gnostics were completely wrong, because Judaism and Gnosticism are completely incompatible.”
Adjensen
Actually, Jewish tradition has many Gnostic (Gnosticism is not exclusively Christian) beliefs.

Your link there is to Kabbalah, not to Judaism. Kabbalah is Jewish mysticism, not Gnosticism, and is rejected by many Orthodox, Conservative and Reformed Jews, anyway.

I am currently interested in Zen. en.wikipedia.org... said “ Zen is the unsymbolization of reality.” Mysticism ( in its proper sense) is the immediate perception of reality without the intermediary of words.
Now, we all think that we know how words “cling” to reality. plato.stanford.edu... showed that words do not correspond to anything. (en.wikipedia.org... ) !

“Supposing I teach someone the use of the word "yellow" by repeatedly pointing to a yellow patch and pronouncing the word. On another occasion I make him apply what he has learnt by giving him the order, "choose a yellow ball out of this bag". What was it that happened when he obeyed my order? I say "possibly just this: he heard my words and took a yellow ball from the bag". Now you may be inclined to think that this couldn't possibly have been all; and the kind of the thing that you would suggest is that he imagined something yellow when he understood the order, and then chose a ball according to his image. To see that this is not necessary remember that I could have given him the order, "Imagine a yellow patch". Would you still be inclined to assume that he first imagines a yellow patch, just understanding my order, and then imagines a yellow patch to match the first?”
FROM
webcache.googleusercontent.com...:6Yz2DrHs0xAJ:www.geocities.jp/mickindex/wittgenstein/witt_blue_en.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us& client=firefox-a
( Once again the site has not taken! Google , “blue book Wittgenstein yellow patch”)


The idea that there is a correspondence facilitates reification and that is the opposite of spirituality! That relates to our domestication. When reality is reified reality becomes a commodity!
www.youtube.com... . REALITY IS SPIRITUAL!!!!
“113. His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?" "It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it."
FROM
www.gnosis.org...

OK. The Kaballah is not part of Jewish tradition. ( I strongly disagree, but for arguments sake I will agree)And it is not Gnostic. I am not Buddhist but I hold many Buddhist beliefs ( unreality of an individual self, etc) .
So how about,
Damn that did not take! KJV
Psalm 139
7 Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.

I am really enjoying this debate. Unfortunately, my wife and I are www.youtube.com... !
And yes I am one of those rich, elitist Illuminati that only pretends to care.

I will leave (but I’ll be back) with this,
Engaging reality without the intermediary of words is easy. Simply ignore everything that doesn’t exist! Even pre-technological societies were capable of that!

Originally posted by wittgenstein
OK. The Kaballah is not part of Jewish tradition.

No, I didn't say that. I said that it wasn't Judaism -- it is a movement within Judaism (and, of late, something with a life of its own.)

So how about,

Psalm 139
7 Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?
8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.

What do you mean "So how about,"? Are you of the mind that this is a Gnostic text? It isn't -- it refers to the omnipresence of God, which isn't a Gnostic belief.

“It isn't -- it refers to the omnipresence of God, which isn't a Gnostic belief.”
adjensen

The Gospel of Thomas
113. His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"
"It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it."
3 Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.
77. Split a piece of wood; I am there. Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."

And related,
5. Jesus said, "Know what is in front of your face, and what is hidden from you will be disclosed to you.
For there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed. [And there is nothing buried that will not be raised.]"
3. When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."
19. Jesus said, "Congratulations to the one who came into being before coming into being.
22. Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."
29. Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, that is a marvel, but if spirit came into being because of the body, that is a marvel of marvels.
39. Jesus said, "The Pharisees and the scholars have taken the keys of knowledge and have hidden them. They have not entered nor have they allowed those who want to enter to do so.
61. "For this reason I say, if one is whole, one will be filled with light, but if one is divided, one will be filled with darkness."
84. Jesus said, "When you see your likeness, you are happy. But when you see your images that came into being before you and that neither die nor become visible, how much you will have to bear!"
89. Jesus said, "Why do you wash the outside of the cup? Don't you understand that the one who made the inside is also the one who made the outside?"
91. He said to them, "You examine the face of heaven and earth, but you have not come to know the one who is in your presence, and you do not know how to examine the present moment."
106. Jesus said, "When you make the two into one, you will become children of Adam, and when you say, 'Mountain, move from here!' it will move."
FROM
www.gnosis.org...

reply to post by wittgenstein


Yes, you have found the inherent problem of Thomas -- it includes both authentic statements of Jesus (in what may well be an earlier, more accurate portrayal of what he said,) along with statements that he most definitely did NOT say, because they reflect post-Valentinus Gnosticism, and the author of Thomas wrote it in such a way as to mingle the two together, sometimes in the same saying.