Lacking justification? Slaughter and persecution of thousands of ppl involved in the Tianenmen Square protest doesn't justify it? OMG Chirac really needs to be removed, he has lost his damn marbles.

Really makes me wonder what kind of contracts France has with China. Chirac has come out and said that he agrees in the refusal of Taiwan's true independence from China and now this.

I am sure Chirac would love to sell all kinds of things to China.

I don't see that the US has severed its commercial relations with China after Tienanmen.

'nuff said.

That's right, Otts, we have "made in China" products everywhere you look. The West speaks with forked tongue.

Originally posted by Otts
I don't see that the US has severed its commercial relations with China after Tienanmen.

'nuff said.

Comerical sales no, arms sales yes. There is a difference IMHO. Given Chinas complete lack of respect or inforcement of Intellectual property rights, is it such a good idea to sell them advanced weaponry? No doubt they have the money and the brain power to eventually do it themselves, but if you can jump start things, why not?

Like FredT said its a big difference between Comerical sales and arms sales.

Chirac can make nice amount of Euros from arm sales to China so im not shocked I expect this type of stuff from Chirac. Im sure he will find ways to sell them weapons even with a embargo

Commercial sales and ARMS sales are very different things. I'm quite sure most every nation in the world including france has everything from electronics to clothing with "made in China" labels -
But to sell military technology to China would only serve to further upset the balance of power in Asia and the north western pacific.
Not just because the US has interests over there, but because Japan, Korea, Thailand, India and even Australia have a security interest in this.

Chirac is no friend of the US and never has been, but now he is showing his disdain for China's neighbors too.

Originally posted by dubiousone
That's right, Otts, we have "made in China" products everywhere you look. The West speaks with forked tongue.

='s
Irresponsible statement...

[edit on 10-10-2004 by intelgurl]

I really do try to be objective (although like everyone in the entire world... I often fail), but tonight I gotta say screw it... That was pretty damn funny. Drop test... HA! lol

Humm...do you think this perhaps has something to do with president Bush endind Clinton's stupid/moronic/idiotic stance on helping the Chinese military/dictatorship become more technogically advanced, and take advantage on the intelligence loop-holes Clinton made in our intelligence which allowed chinese spies to steal our military secrets?

Is France trying to help China now that no democratic president in the US is helping the Chinese military buildup? France has pretty much been an ally with China...nomatter what they do...

Originally posted by Fastmover01
Lacking justification? Slaughter and persecution of thousands of ppl involved in the Tianenmen Square protest doesn't justify it? OMG Chirac really needs to be removed, he has lost his damn marbles.

It was under Deng's leadership, about 15 years ago. Come back to the present under the 4th generation "People's" president and a reforming government that reform their tax system to give poor less tax burden and incentives. Unlikes the American government of today. Tax Cuts that benefits the rich? sigh. Let's not be hypcritical.

Originally posted by ahsingjai
It was under Deng's leadership, about 15 years ago. Come back to the present under the 4th generation "People's" president and a reforming government that reform their tax system to give poor less tax burden and incentives. Unlikes the American government of today. Tax Cuts that benefits the rich? sigh. Let's not be hypcritical.

Fastmover1 said nothing about taxes (which although high, are still much lower here than in most other countries). Fast commented on "freedoms", with which China still has some issues, while we here in the US have the freedom to organize, gather and speak our minds whenever we want to, as long as we don't hurt anyone besides ourselves. BTW 15 years isn't really all that much time considering the magnitude of what happened in Tianenmen.

Originally posted by Fastmover01
Lacking justification? Slaughter and persecution of thousands of ppl involved in the Tianenmen Square protest doesn't justify it? OMG Chirac really needs to be removed, he has lost his damn marbles.

Actually, almost all the people killed (hundreds, not thousands) were workers/residents and not students. They blocked the army and most got shot for blocking and attacking the army(with stones, petrol bombs). The students at the square were unharmed, no one died at the square, all the deaths were on the way to Tiananmen. The army tried to enter the city 3 times and had to pull back twice due to resident opposition, but they fought their way through the third time. There's a good documentary on it produced in HK called "Gate of Heavely Peace"

It was a CIA instigated military coup among the Protest.

There's a pattern to most world news and this one is no exception. There's always lots of rhetoric about human rights/closer cultural ties/military cooperation/whatever you like/blah blah blah, and then you read through to the end and there's billions in corporate and trade deals being signed left, right and center and everyone's grinning like a fox in the hen house. If you want to find out the real truth behind anything, always follow the money, eh.

Chirac waving the flag for the Chinese Communits Party (CCP). Wow. This rhetoric coming from the guy who tested FIVE nuclear bombs under a Pacific atoll, thousands of miles away from France, despite the protests of Japan, Australia, New Zealand and the Philippines. Strangely China was silent throughout, even though they are closer to the region than Japan.

Recently the Chinese media, wholly owned and controlled by the government, has been lauding France and everything French. The Chinese government has even declared this year "The Year of France in China", whatever that means. The CCP certainly know how to be hospitable to the ones that supply them the weapons.

Chirac states that the EU arms embargo is "a measure motivated purely and simply by hostility toward China" and is lacking "justification or foundation".

I can think of a few motivations apart from hostility. How about the following:

1. Avoiding strengthening a regime that has repeatedly massacred it's own people to curb peaceful protest and to set an example for the rest of the country. (Deng wasn't the first, Mao was good at that too.)
2. Avoiding strengthening a regime that has illegally invaded and occupied the sovreign country of Tibet.
3. Avoiding strengthening a regime that has constantly threatened to invade Taiwan, regardless of the possibility of sparking conflict with the United States.
4. Avoiding strengthening a country that could quite possibly (if not already) take the USSR's place as the new Cold War enemy and spark a new nuclear arms race. I don't always approve of US foreign policy, but growing up in the cold-war era made me feel that it's still better to only have one bully on the block. When titans clash, everybody gets hurt.

Chirac's support of ending the embargo perhaps has more obvious motivations:
1. Money.
2. Competition with the old enemy, Germany, which has huge industrial deals with China, in particular Volkswagon (more than 50% share of the market in China) and Seimens Mobile Technologies.
3. Political points for the next election.
4. Money.
5. Giving the bird to the US

the 4th generation "People's" president and a reforming government that reform their tax system to give poor less tax burden and incentives.

Someone seems to be very good at spouting the Communist Party Propoganda lines. This is exactly what the 100% Chinese Communist Party-controlled media tells their citizens every day. "Everything is getting better every day." "Look what we have done for you."

Meanwhile, the CCP spends US$2 Billion a year on satellites to spy on Taiwan and the US, and on putting one guy into space in a 60's-technology rocket. All the while 250 million Chinese in rural areas are living in abject poverty, 150,000 poor Chinese die every year in avoidable accidents due to lack of safety regulations and (oh no, so expensive) safety equipment. Not to mention the money spent and yet to be spent on the Olympics and the 2010 Shanghai Expo. And dare we mention the fact that the leaders of the CCP and their families, the "champions of the people", own billions of dollars in assets in the US and Europe. "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."

It was a CIA instigated military coup among the Protest.

Again, the CCP propoganda line. At first they claimed it was "Taiwanese separatists". Then the CIA. Hey, wait, maybe it was those disgruntled Tibetans!

Selling weapons to China in it's current political state is a bad, bad move.

Bad Chirac! BAD!