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Originally posted by RSF77
Originally posted by Zaphod58
reply to post by RSF77
Funny, they said that in Vietnam too.
There is a big difference between the Vietnam war and the 21st century, no matter how funny it is. The F22 is not the F4 and it has guns anyways. So what's your point?
Originally posted by edog11
The Raptor's advantage has never been WVR dogfights, that's not what it was primarily designed to do and that's not how it is being used (Although it is still an extremely maneuverable jet that will give most, if not all 4th generation jets a run for their money in the WVR arena).
It's advantage is that it flies high and fast without being detected and if you combine that with the most advanced and powerful radar in it's class and a state-of-the-art avionics suite then you've got yourself a group of fighters that can see where you are, what you are doing and take a shot at you if they choose to do so before you even know they are out there. It's like being hunted down by invisible ghosts that are hundreds of kilometers away.
The only indication you will have that there are Raptors out there (If you are lucky) would be your RWR, warning you that you are being "painted" by a radar for a missile lock. If you are unlucky and the Raptor's radar "paints" your jet without you even knowing then you will only know when that AMRAAM activates its own radar when it is already at it's last stage of its flight which means it's already only seconds away.
This basically means that you won't know there are Raptors stalking you and your flight until you and your buddies all have an AMRAAM up your tailpipe, and even then, you won't know where they are and how many there are.
Surviving those missiles will require some very hard maneuvering... Maneuvering that will demand a lot from your aircraft and will test even the best pilot's skills.
Even if you and a few of your flight survives the first wave of AMRAAM's, you will have lost so much kinetic energy that the second wave of missiles will be nearly impossible to survive.
And you still don't know how many Raptors there are and from exactly where you are being engaged.
It is because of this that a flight of 2 to 3 Raptors can successfully engage and eliminate 2 to 6 times as many opponents than there are F-22's (4 Raptors vs 8-24 Tiffy's/Eagles/Vipers for example).
Furthermore, A Raptor "supercruiseing" at Mach 1.5+ at an altitude of around 60.000ft will dramatically increase it's missiles' flight envelope and thus deadliness. Combine that with the new AMRAAM-D that has a higher velocity and range and you will have a very, very bad day as the OpFor.
It is beyond me why they state that the Raptor has lost it's "advantage". No Raptor will ever get into the WVR arena if the pilot doesn't mess up badly and I really mean BADLY.
All of this and we haven't even touched upon the F-22's state of the art EW capabilities.
In my opinion, It is worth every single penny that you Americans spend on it. Why? Because I would rather put 3-4 pilots in much more survivable jets like the F-22 up against an overwhelming force of foes than to put 5 times as many of those pilots in much less survivable jets like the F-15 or 16.
WVR: Within Visual Range (Farther than 20nm/36km).
BVR: Beyond Visual Range (Within 20nm/36km).
RWR: Radar Warning Receiver (Constantly checks to see if anyone is focusing their radar emissions on your jet which is needed for radar guided missiles for example).
Supercruise: Flying faster than Mach 1 without the usage of afterburners (Faster than roughly 1200km/h).
EW: Electronic Warfare (Like ECM/ECCM/Jamming for example)
OpFor: Opposing Force (Enemy).
AMRAAM: Advanced Medium Range Air to Air Missile. (Mach 4+ Normal launch: 110+Km range, F-22 launched: 140+km range for the C variant. The D variant will increase this with around 40%).
Tiffy: Slang for Eurofighter "Typhoon".
Viper: F-16 Fighting Falcon.
Eagle: F-15 Eagle.
I'll end my post with a quote
I talked to an F-14D pilot a month or two ago about this (instructor in a Goshawk at the time). He was in the last squadron of F-14D's. He said "They (Langley)would call us on the phone (Oceana) since we were so close and ask if we wanted to fight, SURE we said. Well at first they only wanted to do BVR stuff, well, forget about it, two minutes after we start we're dead, but after a while they finally agreed to mix it up with us WVR" "How did you do I" asked? His only response, somewhat dejected, somewhat admiring in tone "the F-22 is an impressive plane"
IT--edit on 31-7-2012 by edog11 because: (no reason given)
"We expected to perform less with the Eurofighter but we didn't," German air officer Marc Grune said, according to Combat Aircraft Monthly. "We were evenly matched. They didn't expect us to turn so aggressively."
In the dogfight the Eurofighter is at least as capable as the F-22, with advantages in some aspects."
Originally posted by jhn7537
Imagine how much good that wasted $80 billion could do in this country right now... Imagine the shelter, food, and clothing that money could help or the good charities out there it could help out. But instead we have a wasted military fighter jet because its creators didnt do their due-diligence in planning and designing this aircraft...smh