How could the first living cell have evolved?

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by jiggerj

 

maybe the information aspect is within the laws of physics,, and the laws of elemental/chemical reactions obeying those physics...... and a lot of other laws,.,.,., also involved in this process is the constant warming and energizing and radiating sun..,.

maybe as the sun can coerce seemingly unintelligent plant life to dance toward its radiance, at one time this dance occurred with pools of chemicals and elements,.,,. its also thought the conditions on earth were much different,,,,, stuff about the atmosphere or lack there of,,,..,., lightning storms,,,, magnetic field,.,..,

edit on 11-7-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)

Wow, it's going to take some time to wrap my pea brain around this. First thing comes to mind is, plant life reaches for the sun, moths fly to flame. I don't see why it would be impossible for elements to reach for sun when metal reaches for magnetism (or magnetism reaches for metal). Thanks, you just gave me a night's worth of pondering. Good stuff!

The problem with the "first cell" theory is that it presumes, and boy do mean presumes, that we are at the forefront of an evolutionary timeline. The first cell theory and it do mean theory, cannot accommodate the fact that we may be at the beginning - the first days so to speak, or even in the middle, but it requires us to be at the outer most point of the timeline, the most evolved until we evolve more. Big bang theories, and I do mean theories, need to rest their premise, and it is a premise, on the foundation of start and finish. The entire theory, and it is a theory, falls apart when you presume no start and no finish, only middle.

As for the cell, someone probably made it in the exact way fake meat is being made. Patterns repeat, often, and very often right next to each other, no reason to presume someone wasn't here before making stuff out of their consciousness.

reply to post by jiggerj


i mean the "energy".. light of sun has some weird properties itself,, it seems to be an organized wave,,,, our bodies and cells utilize miniature yet electric in nature devices to communicate with cells,, brain synapses and nurons,, nervous system.,., light is somehow able to enter our eyes and reflect the information of the external reality to our minds, so that we see external reality surrounding us.,,..,.,.,., i guess it was also a one shot deal when an organism was succesful and built a structure that i could add too, and divide and reproduce,,, so there are no pools of blood and growing organs laying around earth,,,,,,

Radiation apparently caused cell mutations and what not that some how made life perfectly sustainable ... Lol

reply to post by milkyway12


you dont have to get snarky,,,, perhaps your god pressed play,,,

and if that is so,,, you would be laughing at your gods way of work,

reply to post by jiggerj


"Funny how people are coming up with this idea. Myself included."

Thats synchronicity for ya, i wish we could ask Jung.

Every 'bit' of matter that exists today existed at the time of the Big Bang. Nothing has been lost or gained, it has just changed shape and form.

Yet there was no life at the time of the Big Bang, right?

So that suggests to create life all one needs to do is assemble the 'bits' into the correct structure.

But we can do that in the laboratory, and still we cannot create life.

Life seems to be something extra, something 'more than the sum of its parts'.
Or is it just that we are not assembling the parts correctly?

Break me up and I become trillions of inanimate particles. Reassemble them in one specific way and I will wake up and ask for a cigarette.

Isn't it amazing - first came the Big Bang. Then elementary particles, atoms, matter. Stars, planets etc. All inanimate. Then, eventually, particles arranged themselves in a way that created something with consciousness able to LOOK BACK at the Big Bang from which it came.

Go figure.

theories of 'origan of cells' for you to look into.


Proteinoid microspheres
This theory gives a plausible account of how some replicating structures, which might well be called alive, could have arisen.

Clay crystals
This says that the first replicators were crystals in clay. Though they do not have a metabolism or respond to the environment, these crystals carry information and reproduce.

Emerging hypercycles
This proposes a gradual origin of the first life, roughly in the following stages:
(1) a primordial soup of simple organic compounds (we know that simple organic compounds are created in space).
(2) nucleoproteins, somewhat like modern tRNA.
(3) hypercycles, or pockets of primitive biochemical pathways that include self-replicatio.
(4) cellular hypercycles, in which more complex hypercycles are enclosed in a primitive membrane.
(5) first simple cell. Complexity theory suggests that the self-organization is not improbable. This view of abiogenesis is the current front-runner.

The iron-sulfur world
It has been found that all the steps for the conversion of carbon monoxide into peptides can occur at high temperature and pressure, catalyzed by iron and nickel sulfides. Such conditions exist around submarine hydrothermal vents. Iron sulfide precipitates could have served as precursors of cell walls. A peptide cycle, from peptides to amino acids and back, is a prerequisite to metabolism, and such a cycle could have arisen in the iron-sulfur rich earth of the past.


its not 1. Dumb slime 2. Dumb slime 3. SUPER INTELLIGENT INFORMATION!
more like
1. Dumb slime 2. Dumb slime ......................... 3000000000000000000. SUPER INTELLIGENT INFORMATION!

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by Blue Shift

Originally posted by jiggerj
Any thoughts on this?

Certain chemicals have a tendency to link together in certain ways, but there aren't any that link together to form cell structures with specific important components. There's no way for dead material to "evolve" into something living.

That's why after giving it a lot of thought, I've determined that what probably happens is that the universe and living things are locked together. The universe doesn't exist without something to experience it, and living things need the universe to exist. Along with that, what we experience as "time" is just an illusion. It's not so much a dimension as it is a quality, like color or temperature, and it's full of holes where little (or maybe even huge) things can randomly fall through to all other points in space and time.

So what you have are living things -- everything from tiny bacteria to aliens the size of planets and everything in-between -- spreading back and forth and sideways in time, from the future to the past and back again. That means life has always existed and always will, along with the universe, which continues to expand forwards and backwards in time as life spreads out to experience it. That's the Big Bang, but it's not something that happened 14 billion years ago, it's something that's always happening right now, inside the holes of time.

That means there was no beginning and there will be no end. Those are just concepts we like to use to try and make sense of things in our little monkey brains.

Unless all of our galaxies are merely cells of a flower in a larger dimension. Flower dies, we go bye-bye. Could the expansion of our universe actually be a thing that is growing in the larger dimension? Are we atoms in the rind of a ripening orange?

I like this. I thought about this too lol. www.abovetopsecret.com...
Flowers and oranges have seeds, the seed grow. How do we make it into the seeds so we don't cease to exist?

Originally posted by milkyway12
Radiation apparently caused cell mutations and what not that some how made life perfectly sustainable ... Lol

I suppose you apply heat to a gas trapped inside some kind of goo like oil and it will expand to make a bubble. Some kind of permeable chemical membrane. And then more organic molecules squeeze through the membrane and into the interior of the bubble. These chemicals interact and join together, forming long structures that are eventually unable to be contained within one bubble. But rather than just popping the bubble, they move to opposite ends and stretch it apart, shrink the middle, and become two more or less identical membrane bubbles filled with chemicals. And the process continues. Without the radiation (heat), then the molecules aren't able to move around.

Nah, that don't make no sense.

Watch this. It's all just basic chemistry - start at the 2:30 mark

(You might wanna turn down the music)

reply to post by jiggerj


It is pretty simple once you understand all the concepts. However It is a lot harder to explain to someone, and I do not know what level of biology you're at.

Couple things that may help you.

1. We cant think of evolution only in terms of life, but of all matter. The evolution of matter. When the universe started it was just hydrogen and helium. Through fusion in stars, new elements were made and could then interact with each other. To continue this step further, the "chemical" soup of early was NOT inert, but rather very active. Complex chains of molecules and compounds were continually forming and deforming, almost "testing" every possible combination. some combinations last longer than others. Some combinations are capable of autocatalysis or replication of molecular chains.

2. Life is nothing more than a complex set of chemical reactions. Every reaction that happens in cells, which are responsible for life, are also capable of happening without a cell, so long as the preconditions are right.
If you look at respiration and how our bodies transport oxygen around, it is nothing more than a complex form of rust (although in biology, the Oxygen and Iron are never allowed to come into contact but are seperated by a sheath.

3. the chemistry of life is POLAR. (think of magnets). All of these compounds and elements will have overall charges, and/or have different charges on different ends. and like magnets, if their orientation is correct, they will join each other or repel.

I have a lot more stuff I could discuss with you. but trust me. It is very possible for life to have formed with no outside help with just the things we know now.

phys.org...

"Now, an international team has discovered that under the right conditions, particles of inorganic dust can become organised into helical structures. These structures can then interact with each other in ways that are usually associated with organic compounds and life itself.

V.N. Tsytovich of the General Physics Institute, Russian Academy of Science, in Moscow, working with colleagues there and at the Max-Planck Institute for Extraterrestrial Physics in Garching, Germany and the University of Sydney, Australia, has studied the behaviour of complex mixtures of inorganic materials in a plasma. Plasma is essentially the fourth state of matter beyond solid, liquid and gas, in which electrons are torn from atoms leaving behind a miasma of charged particles.

Until now, physicists assumed that there could be little organisation in such a cloud of particles. However, Tsytovich and his colleagues demonstrated, using a computer model of molecular dynamics, that particles in a plasma can undergo self-organization as electronic charges become separated and the plasma becomes polarized. This effect results in microscopic strands of solid particles that twist into corkscrew shapes, or helical structures. These helical strands are themselves electronically charged and are attracted to each other.

Quite bizarrely, not only do these helical strands interact in a counterintuitive way in which like can attract like, but they also undergo changes that are normally associated with biological molecules, such as DNA and proteins, say the researchers. They can, for instance, divide, or bifurcate, to form two copies of the original structure. These new structures can also interact to induce changes in their neighbours and they can even evolve into yet more structures as less stable ones break down, leaving behind only the fittest structures in the plasma."

Clay hypoethesis
How the moon and tides may have helped create life

reply to post by jiggerj


That's the same question I've been asking. Even if aliens are real and they planted this, where did they come from? Whats their evolution?

Originally posted by FOXMULDER147
But we can do that in the laboratory, and still we cannot create life.

Except that we can:
Scientists create polio virus from scratch
Scientists create bacteria from man-made DNA.

I dont believe that the cell evolved on earth at all. I think extremophile bacteria came here on meteors. Panspermia. They developed elsewhere in space spontaneously just like all matter did.....

source field arranges the elements into complex patterns

source field arranges the elements into complex patterns. life probably emerges everywhere

To get the engine going maybe at one point there was some sort of frequency sound/electromagnetic being emitted from our galaxy that aligned everything. Once life got started it didn't stop. And maybe it always emits in other galaxies or solar systems as well. Point is the universe is to harbor life, what is the point of intelligent consciousness ?

Saw this after I posted but I guess we are thinking the same thing...

Originally posted by biggmoneyme
source field arranges the elements into complex patterns. life probably emerges everywhere

Originally posted by R3KR
To get the engine going maybe at one point there was some sort of frequency sound/electromagnetic being emitted from our galaxy that aligned everything. Once life got started it didn't stop. And maybe it always emits in other galaxies or solar systems as well. Point is the universe is to harbor life, what is the point of intelligent consciousness ?

Saw this after I posted but I guess we are thinking the same thing...

Originally posted by biggmoneyme
source field arranges the elements into complex patterns. life probably emerges everywhere

edit on 11-7-2012 by R3KR because: (no reason given)

Cosmic microwave background radiation?

reply to post by jiggerj

This doesn't make sense to me.

Its not logically possible,thats why it woudnt make sense.