How could the first living cell have evolved?

reply to post by jiggerj


Are you talking Darwinian evolution?

Originally posted by DaveNorris
all cells are made from the elements, out of the billions of different combinations of these elements there is at least one that combination that can make up primative cells, all of these differant combinations would be played out at some point or another given enough time. and if theres one thing we know about the universe its that it has been around for a while.

You are so right and so wrong at the same time.

Yes, the right elements joined to form the living cell, but these elements are dumb!

Carbon doesn't have a pocket where the information is held to teach a cell how to split into two cells.
Nitrogen doesn't hold the secret of how to make chromosomes recreate themselves in exact size and detail, and with the exact same information as the original chromosomes.
Oxygen doesn't know how to build an energy plant like the mitochondria.
Hydrogen can't teach the RNA in a cell how to read the information in a string of DNA.

The INFORMATION contained in a living cell is so vast, and yet none of it can be found in these dumb elements.
The evolution of a cell cannot go: 1. Dumb slime 2. Dumb slime 3. SUPER INTELLIGENT INFORMATION!

Originally posted by Wifibrains
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Are you talking Darwinian evolution?

I'm talking any kind of ' slow process' whereby inert material learns or compiles the information to 'build' a living cell.

ok, so evolution doesnt have all the answers, its still more beleivable than a bearded man in the clouds .

although there is a third option. the only way i can think of to get something from nothing is if at some point in the future time travel is used (deliberately?/accidently?/naturally?/artificial?) and something from the future travels back to the past creating a never ending loop.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by DaveNorris
all cells are made from the elements, out of the billions of different combinations of these elements there is at least one that combination that can make up primative cells, all of these differant combinations would be played out at some point or another given enough time. and if theres one thing we know about the universe its that it has been around for a while.

You are so right and so wrong at the same time.

Yes, the right elements joined to form the living cell, but these elements are dumb!

Carbon doesn't have a pocket where the information is held to teach a cell how to split into two cells.
Nitrogen doesn't hold the secret of how to make chromosomes recreate themselves in exact size and detail, and with the exact same information as the original chromosomes.
Oxygen doesn't know how to build an energy plant like the mitochondria.
Hydrogen can't teach the RNA in a cell how to read the information in a string of DNA.

The INFORMATION contained in a living cell is so vast, and yet none of it can be found in these dumb elements.
The evolution of a cell cannot go: 1. Dumb slime 2. Dumb slime 3. SUPER INTELLIGENT INFORMATION!

you missed the point. there could of been millions of failed combinations, cells that couldnt split, cells that couldnt sustain life and just died after a fraction of a second. nature only has to get it right once for it to work. all it takes is time

nobodies saying it went 1. Dumb slime 2. Dumb slime 3. SUPER INTELLIGENT INFORMATION! there could be millions of missing steps between 2 and 3

It came from somewhere else, a planet that possibly blew up somewhere else. I am only shifting the timeline though because it still had to be created somewhere else. (I don't want to sound like a politician so I had to add that last part.)

Originally posted by Ophiuchus 13

Originally posted by jiggerj
You have no idea how much I want to argue with that. But I can't! Instead, I have to go with, who or what created the creator. I simply will NOT buy that he/she/it always was and always will be.

I knew it was going to strike a nerve as I posted it but it is what it is. Maybe the process of continous ascension done by INTERNAL INHABITANTS involves learning the ways of the CREATOR weither you ascend into the higher positive feilds or ascend into the lower dimension fields. So is it hard to accept that maybe just maybe its not ment to be understood. Just as a srimp thats half way thru its life cannot undestand what going on near PLUTO.. SOme things like information truth high intelligence may be gifts obtained thru OUR experiences. I didnt say Creator to upset you just how I feel.

You didn't upset me at all. I'm saying that I can't come up with a logical argument against some kind of intelligent intervention in the creation of the first living cell. So, a creator? I cannot rule it out. I was just stipulating that if logic compels me to accept intelligent intervention, then logic also compels me to consider an endless cycle of intelligence creating intelligence, creating intelligence.... Everything we see (EVERYTHING) has a beginning and an end, so there is no logical justification in believing that this cycle just stops somewhere.

reply to post by drakus


Well-worded. Even Hegel's dialectic to some extent explains the process. One thing, upon interaction with another, culminating in a superior result. A + B = C and so on...

What still remains is the programming behind this (or motivation, if you will) seems to indicate that life has this predetermined tendency to self improvement. This leads me to believe that the universe is on a course heading for self-awareness and actualisation. Philosophy likes to try to explain the 'how'...but the 'why' remains unsolved.

I think about this every day.

Originally posted by DaveNorris

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by DaveNorris
all cells are made from the elements, out of the billions of different combinations of these elements there is at least one that combination that can make up primative cells, all of these differant combinations would be played out at some point or another given enough time. and if theres one thing we know about the universe its that it has been around for a while.

You are so right and so wrong at the same time.

Yes, the right elements joined to form the living cell, but these elements are dumb!

Carbon doesn't have a pocket where the information is held to teach a cell how to split into two cells.
Nitrogen doesn't hold the secret of how to make chromosomes recreate themselves in exact size and detail, and with the exact same information as the original chromosomes.
Oxygen doesn't know how to build an energy plant like the mitochondria.
Hydrogen can't teach the RNA in a cell how to read the information in a string of DNA.

The INFORMATION contained in a living cell is so vast, and yet none of it can be found in these dumb elements.
The evolution of a cell cannot go: 1. Dumb slime 2. Dumb slime 3. SUPER INTELLIGENT INFORMATION!

you missed the point. there could of been millions of failed combinations, cells that couldnt split, cells that couldnt sustain life and just died after a fraction of a second. nature only has to get it right once for it to work. all it takes is time

nobodies saying it went 1. Dumb slime 2. Dumb slime 3. SUPER INTELLIGENT INFORMATION! there could be millions of missing steps between 2 and 3

edit on 11/7/2012 by DaveNorris because: added text

True, but what I'm saying is, you can take ALL of the elements on the period table and mix them any way you want for an eternity and you might come up with a brick, a cake, or even a bomb, but you will NEVER come up with INFORMATION to create life. This information is just not in the elements. There can't be a slow learning process where the information for life gets better and more refined - because, again, the information is just not there.

reply to post by jiggerj



I don't think it happens slow. When the conditions inside are right, if just fires up. Matter and life are two totally different things. So there is something we can't see that decides what comes to life and what doesn't. I'm not talking about god. I'm talking about the order, the code behind nature, inside the building blocks of the matrix if you like. At a predetermined time set in this code change happens. Life "switching on" being one of these predetermined events, carefully planned and everything perfectly organised like clockwork. Or a symphony when the highs and lows of the peice of music are obvious, and of coarse perfectly timed.. I thought about this six months or so ago and wrote this down as i tried to work out what I was thinking.

Life is real. As real as can be. Reality is real too, But only as real as it can be. This life, in this reality is as real as it gets. But it's not REAL. It's just as real as it gets.
Life is not unique to this planet. Life will live wherever it can. That's what it does, it survives. It arrives sometimes, and sometimes it just appears out of nothing and grows. Wherever it can be, it will be there. You will never find a planet that can harbour natural life with no life on it, for it is life that makes it able to harbour life. So, planets themselves, if they harbour life, are alive. Like makes like. The planets can't live if they don't have life on, and the life on the planet can't live if the planet dies. Everything is connected. They need each other to exist.

So I think, a signal for a conciouse reality is sent via the sun to the planet, call that signal life if you want, DNA is the receptor for this signal, acids in the matter pick up the signal and DNA is formed, single cell organism. Pop, two, pop pop four. Some stay single, others begin to cooperate and stay attattched to become something bigger or better. In finite possibilities creates an abundance of life a billion yrs down the time line. this works for me.

You have your own answer sir. Hope you find it

reply to post by jiggerj


you can mix elements and create chemical reactions, why is it impossible for this to develop (over a long period of time) into more complex interactions between elemants??

reply to post by jiggerj


I suppose it depends on your definition of life.

"Life is a characteristic that distinguishes objects that have signaling and self-sustaining processes from those that do not, either because such functions have ceased (death), or else because they lack such functions and are classified as inanimate."

What if the universe is just one big cell and its alive? Bring in Multiverses and dimensional interactivity and thats one complicated life form!

Originally posted by jiggerj
Any thoughts on this?

Certain chemicals have a tendency to link together in certain ways, but there aren't any that link together to form cell structures with specific important components. There's no way for dead material to "evolve" into something living.

That's why after giving it a lot of thought, I've determined that what probably happens is that the universe and living things are locked together. The universe doesn't exist without something to experience it, and living things need the universe to exist. Along with that, what we experience as "time" is just an illusion. It's not so much a dimension as it is a quality, like color or temperature, and it's full of holes where little (or maybe even huge) things can randomly fall through to all other points in space and time.

So what you have are living things -- everything from tiny bacteria to aliens the size of planets and everything in-between -- spreading back and forth and sideways in time, from the future to the past and back again. That means life has always existed and always will, along with the universe, which continues to expand forwards and backwards in time as life spreads out to experience it. That's the Big Bang, but it's not something that happened 14 billion years ago, it's something that's always happening right now, inside the holes of time.

That means there was no beginning and there will be no end. Those are just concepts we like to use to try and make sense of things in our little monkey brains.

Originally posted by Wifibrains
reply to post by jiggerj

 

I don't think it happens slow. When the conditions inside are right, if just fires up. Matter and life are two totally different things. So there is something we can't see that decides what comes to life and what doesn't. I'm not talking about god. I'm talking about the order, the code behind nature, inside the building blocks of the matrix if you like. At a predetermined time set in this code change happens. Life "switching on" being one of these predetermined events, carefully planned and everything perfectly organised like clockwork. Or a symphony when the highs and lows of the peice of music are obvious, and of coarse perfectly timed.. I thought about this six months or so ago and wrote this down as i tried to work out what I was thinking.

Life is real. As real as can be. Reality is real too, But only as real as it can be. This life, in this reality is as real as it gets. But it's not REAL. It's just as real as it gets.
Life is not unique to this planet. Life will live wherever it can. That's what it does, it survives. It arrives sometimes, and sometimes it just appears out of nothing and grows. Wherever it can be, it will be there. You will never find a planet that can harbour natural life with no life on it, for it is life that makes it able to harbour life. So, planets themselves, if they harbour life, are alive. Like makes like. The planets can't live if they don't have life on, and the life on the planet can't live if the planet dies. Everything is connected. They need each other to exist.

So I think, a signal for a conciouse reality is sent via the sun to the planet, call that signal life if you want, DNA is the receptor for this signal, acids in the matter pick up the signal and DNA is formed, single cell organism. Pop, two, pop pop four. Some stay single, others begin to cooperate and stay attattched to become something bigger or better. In finite possibilities creates an abundance of life a billion yrs down the time line. this works for me.

You have your own answer sir. Hope you find it

LOL I can't agree or disagree. I just enjoyed reading it. Star for you!

Originally posted by DaveNorris
reply to post by jiggerj

 

you can mix elements and create chemical reactions, why is it impossible for this to develop (over a long period of time) into more complex interactions between elemants??

Ha! There's a joke in here somewhere.

What did the carbon atom say to the Nitrogen atom?
Answer: Nothing because inert carbon is dumb! lololol (Well, I thought it was funny.)

Originally posted by DaveNorris
reply to post by jiggerj

 

you can mix elements and create chemical reactions, why is it impossible for this to develop (over a long period of time) into more complex interactions between elemants??

Elements are either compatible, or they are incompatible (stick to make brick or break to make bomb). They can join, but they cannot absorb information that just isn't there.

reply to post by jiggerj


maybe the information aspect is within the laws of physics,, and the laws of elemental/chemical reactions obeying those physics...... and a lot of other laws,.,.,., also involved in this process is the constant warming and energizing and radiating sun..,.

maybe as the sun can coerce seemingly unintelligent plant life to dance toward its radiance, at one time this dance occurred with pools of chemicals and elements,.,,. its also thought the conditions on earth were much different,,,,, stuff about the atmosphere or lack there of,,,..,., lightning storms,,,, magnetic field,.,..,

Originally posted by DaveNorris
you can mix elements and create chemical reactions, why is it impossible for this to develop (over a long period of time) into more complex interactions between elemants??

Well, there's the Second Law of Thermodynamics, which has everything tending toward entropy.

But the basic problem is that life is not just a lot of complex chemical interactions. Life is something that even on a most basic level has a point of view, experiences its environment, and has goals -- primarily to eat, continue itself, and to reproduce. Throw a lot of chemicals into a beaker and shake it, and at what point do you suppose some lump of chemicals in there is going to say to itself, "I'm hungry! And I want to reproduce!"

Originally posted by andy06shake
reply to post by jiggerj

 

I suppose it depends on your definition of life.

"Life is a characteristic that distinguishes objects that have signaling and self-sustaining processes from those that do not, either because such functions have ceased (death), or else because they lack such functions and are classified as inanimate."

What if the universe is just one big cell and its alive? Bring in Multiverses and dimensional interactivity and thats one complicated life form!

Funny how people are coming up with this idea. Myself included. Here: www.abovetopsecret.com... Why are we "IT"?

Originally posted by Blue Shift

Originally posted by jiggerj
Any thoughts on this?

Certain chemicals have a tendency to link together in certain ways, but there aren't any that link together to form cell structures with specific important components. There's no way for dead material to "evolve" into something living.

That's why after giving it a lot of thought, I've determined that what probably happens is that the universe and living things are locked together. The universe doesn't exist without something to experience it, and living things need the universe to exist. Along with that, what we experience as "time" is just an illusion. It's not so much a dimension as it is a quality, like color or temperature, and it's full of holes where little (or maybe even huge) things can randomly fall through to all other points in space and time.

So what you have are living things -- everything from tiny bacteria to aliens the size of planets and everything in-between -- spreading back and forth and sideways in time, from the future to the past and back again. That means life has always existed and always will, along with the universe, which continues to expand forwards and backwards in time as life spreads out to experience it. That's the Big Bang, but it's not something that happened 14 billion years ago, it's something that's always happening right now, inside the holes of time.

That means there was no beginning and there will be no end. Those are just concepts we like to use to try and make sense of things in our little monkey brains.

Unless all of our galaxies are merely cells of a flower in a larger dimension. Flower dies, we go bye-bye. Could the expansion of our universe actually be a thing that is growing in the larger dimension? Are we atoms in the rind of a ripening orange?