Enlightenment

Originally posted by sinohptik
Another is that many who claim such a term also claim to have destroyed the ego, which is the only thing that can become "enlightened." It seems it indicates how we truly can deceive ourselves. Especially when one starts to claim that others are not experiencing "it."

Ego-death and the subsequent ego-rebirth is a mystical experience. It's a transpersonal experience. Without it, the "you" that you think is you is not enlightened. Oh, the "you" you think is you can be wise and good and respectable and noble and strong and smart, but not enlightened.

reply to post by BlueMule


The individual perspective goes through many metaphorical deaths and re-births.

Which one is the "special" one?

reply to post by sinohptik


If you have to ask, then you haven't had it yet.

reply to post by BlueMule


I was not looking for answers or teaching, I was looking to explore your perspective. This can only be done through discussion, as I do not have access to your perspective, inherently. I never said anything about what I have or have not experienced. You did. Interesting the assumptions the ego can make on things which it has no inherent awareness, isnt it?

So, I will ask a bit more clearly; from your perspective, which one is the "special" one?

You are insinuating that there is a "special" one. I am insinuating that the "specialness" perceived is the ego clinging onto its last bastions. Both are looking at the same thing, and I find beauty in the diversity. Do you?

Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne

Originally posted by apushforenlightment

Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne
If enlightenment consists of going to an internet forum and claiming one is enlightened, then there are many enlightened being here on ATS. I would wager, that in real life, a true enlightened person wouldn't even need a computer. I would also wager that if anyone knew anything about enlightenment, it would be the enlightened, and not the folks who make such claims on an internet forum.

OP, you have spoken more truth than anyone who's disagreed with you—simply because you haven't yet lied to yourself. Don't allow yourself to be seduced or you justify their actions.

We all have our own paths we need to walk and this place is a perfect place to talk to people who seem to be a bit ahead of the others in evolution/understanding. I wish I lived in a place where all the people around me knew more than me. That would have been easier to understand things and feel more harmonious with the people around me.

Your post is pushing the op towards not seeking enlightment and opening chakras and trying to understand nonduality that is both in buddism/hinduism/native american religon and Jesus teaching. Your post seem to be to the op to not belive anything or seek any more knowledge and remain unchanged. If one of us knows what we are talking about then not seeking further is ignorant. If none of ous is not what we say then he will gain knowledge in philosophy and relax in meditiation so what is the problem of following our advice. You are preaching divide and conqurer mentality and that leeds to duality.

Don't be so overdramatic. I am not preaching anything, I am stating my opinion. If it affected you in away way, maybe you should take a long stare in the mirror and ask yourself why.

You are right you are getting to me. You made my point in that being one (nondual) with people with your perspective is hard.

Originally posted by sinohptik
reply to post by BlueMule

 

I was not looking for answers or teaching, I was looking to explore your perspective.

And I was not looking to explore my perspective with you, I was looking to address posts as I see fit. I no longer see fit to address your posts, but rest assured that if that changes you will know.

reply to post by apushforenlightment


Is it really so hard?

Even when you disagree, even when you "let it get to you"...

You are still both moving through "it" in unison.

reply to post by BlueMule


I had no intent of you exploring your perspective. That is all up to you.

I enjoy discussing how others see What Is, Right Now. No more, no less.

I was not looking for answers or teaching. Likewise, I was not offering any.

Originally posted by apushforenlightment

Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne

Originally posted by apushforenlightment

Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne
If enlightenment consists of going to an internet forum and claiming one is enlightened, then there are many enlightened being here on ATS. I would wager, that in real life, a true enlightened person wouldn't even need a computer. I would also wager that if anyone knew anything about enlightenment, it would be the enlightened, and not the folks who make such claims on an internet forum.

OP, you have spoken more truth than anyone who's disagreed with you—simply because you haven't yet lied to yourself. Don't allow yourself to be seduced or you justify their actions.

We all have our own paths we need to walk and this place is a perfect place to talk to people who seem to be a bit ahead of the others in evolution/understanding. I wish I lived in a place where all the people around me knew more than me. That would have been easier to understand things and feel more harmonious with the people around me.

Your post is pushing the op towards not seeking enlightment and opening chakras and trying to understand nonduality that is both in buddism/hinduism/native american religon and Jesus teaching. Your post seem to be to the op to not belive anything or seek any more knowledge and remain unchanged. If one of us knows what we are talking about then not seeking further is ignorant. If none of ous is not what we say then he will gain knowledge in philosophy and relax in meditiation so what is the problem of following our advice. You are preaching divide and conqurer mentality and that leeds to duality.

Don't be so overdramatic. I am not preaching anything, I am stating my opinion. If it affected you in away way, maybe you should take a long stare in the mirror and ask yourself why.

You are right you are getting to me. You made my point in that being one (nondual) with people with your perspective is hard.

I didn't mean to rub off on you in any way. But my perspective is no less valid than yours. I can only rely on my logic is such matters, not my hopes and wishes. And oneness has too many contradictions and fallacies to be logically sound. I am not wicked because of it. That is my perspective and it should be regarded as such.

Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne

I can only rely on my logic is such matters, not my hopes and wishes. And oneness has too many contradictions and fallacies to be logically sound.

That's what your ego-self wants you to think. There is more than logic that you could rely on, but in order to reach past logic your ego-self has to die and be reborn, like a Phoenix rising from its ashes. That is exactly what the ego-self tries to stop you from bringing about.

So it presents you with logic and rational explanations and obstacles, just like how in The Truman Show all the actors tried to prevent Truman from realizing the truth of his existence.

i HAVE read no 'enlightened' posts on this thread . Because , none of you have undergone the experience .
The way enlightenment was always governed , was by progressiveness . The 'unveiling' has occured for people at various critical points throughout history , leaving us with the heritage of the books and saying s left by such individuals . Not all of them were buddhists by any means , but christ was enlightened , mohammed and krsna were enlightened .
To be enlightened , involves destiny , and the future , with the prophetic legacies of maitreya , future buddha , the son of man , or 'last prophet' of the quran . One and the same , the purpose of such is to bring the whole of human history and consciouness towards enlightenment , with a final unveiling to the understanding of mankind , 'the judgement-day'.
Do not confuse good and bad , with wrong and right , just or unjust . But at each choice you face , each time , choose wisely . That way , when we all finally meet our fate , an happy outcome once again returns .
For warnings put by the enlightened are plain warnings .eg
"O mohammed , say unto the wicked and the righteous alike , "I am but a plain warner unto you." "

Originally posted by BlueMule

Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne

I can only rely on my logic is such matters, not my hopes and wishes. And oneness has too many contradictions and fallacies to be logically sound.

That's what your ego-self wants you to think. There is more than logic that you could rely on, but in order to reach past logic your ego-self has to die and be reborn, like a Phoenix rising from its ashes. That is exactly what the ego-self tries to stop you from bringing about.

So it presents you with logic and rational explanations and obstacles, just like how in The Truman Show all the actors tried to prevent Truman from realizing the truth of his existence.

edit on 7-7-2012 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)

Or maybe it's the other way around. And what you say is what your ego-self wants you to think. Maybe your ego-self makes you think you're actually killing it to be reborn, but it stays the same. So it presents you with a will to not use logic in order to withhold you from realizing this vicious cycle.

Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne

Or maybe it's the other way around. And what you say is what your ego-self wants you to think. Maybe your ego-self makes you think you're actually killing it to be reborn, but it stays the same. So it presents you with a will to not use logic in order to withhold you from realizing this vicious cycle.

Learn the ways of mysticism / transpersonal psychology so that you can undergo ego-death... and then come back and say that. I dare you.

reply to post by TheSubversiveOne


"That which we speak most fervently tends to be directed towards ourselves."

Always liked that saying.. The application towards preachers is profound. "You must do it this way!" Well, they are only speaking for themselves, as we all do.

Though, I do not necessarily disagree with "oneness" being a logical perspective, though I do not seem to perceive it in the same way as most of its proponents. I like that though. Shows how encompassing the boundaries of the human context are, and I truly do find beauty in the diversity.

I like to think of it in terms of the human body. It has many individual parts that make up the whole. They all have an effect on one another, and are symbiotic to a degree. Some may see them as separate, but it doesnt seem to change the idea that they all have a distinct effect on one another.

The typical view on "oneness" is that it can be contained within ONE part of the whole. That is, the individual perspective that is perceiving it. Most will not account for a disagreeing viewpoint, simply because it doesnt make sense from ones perspective. And yet, the disagreement is part of What Is by virtue of it existing. What is the Path for one part may not be the same as another part. The heart and lungs both have different needs, movements, and purposes. But look at how often the "lungs" try to tell the heart that it is "doing it wrong" (speaking metaphorically).

For myself, I put this into practice by understanding it in my own body. My mind was essentially controlling how I viewed all other systems contained within myself. Note that I look at the mind as distinct from the brain, though a product of it. I noticed that when doing breathing exercises, I was thinking about how I was breathing, rather than simply breathing. My lungs had their own way of "viewing the world," and my thoughts were stifling this valid viewpoint. I realized that I was relegating myself to just one part of myself. Even if such consciousness stops at the brain, I saw value in experiencing all that "life" has to offer in this way.

"I" existed solely in my thoughts, and yet there were all these systems that seemed to do just fine even when I did not think of them. This led me to logically conclude that I was willfully limiting myself to a small part of my being. Even if nothing existed beyond my brain, "things" most certainly did beyond my thoughts of them. In saying all of this, of course, these words are all products of thought. My heart and lungs et. al. could not care less

As always, I only speak for myself

Regarding ego , defined , as a sense of who i am , an altered ego state follows a full end to an 'old' ego , an old skin in terms of identity , is shed .
A commonly understood , usual , interpersonal identity is not compatible with ego change or the facts gained from the conception of reality/enlightenment , making this shift in consciousness very hard indeed for the physical mind and body union which undergoes it . 'Splitting' and 'projection' are used as terms for understanding both schozophenia , personality disorders , and truth-contested situations suchas police investigations , Hallucinations ,delusions , visual horrors , these are described as coming with , or rather soon after , the 'perfect' experience , making a community of monks the ideal place in which to be 'received' there in safety .
For the layman on the path , if he get to the highest point on the mountain with the best view , where has he left to go after ? Only down again . He has to go down and leave there a n entirely new man , with only his experience s , his memories , to take with him , onward into the future , unfortunately , as before . His knowledge changes nothing , the people around him will go on in their complete vanity . Al though he claim to the highest priests , all will laugh or scorn him away , none , having taken part , neither wishing to take part in his truths .

Such is the way of waiting , as in op's complaint . Good things to those who wait , and store up for , yourselves ,good things in the hereafter
You cant take it with you when you go . Et al

reply to post by sinohptik


Some good posts Sinohptik, enjoyed the read.

Spiritual awakening/advancement/enlightenment/journeying is always one of a personal nature. Quite often at times impossible to put in to words (ineffable), because there is no language for Spirit, it is more feelings and a sense of knowing.

There are many deluded spiritual teachers who believe they have all the answers. My approach is this - explore your consciousness by any means possible and then meditate on the experience - if you don't go within , you will go without.

Peace Out

Originally posted by sinohptik
reply to post by TheSubversiveOne

 

"That which we speak most fervently tends to be directed towards ourselves."

Always liked that saying.. The application towards preachers is profound. "You must do it this way!" Well, they are only speaking for themselves, as we all do.

Though, I do not necessarily disagree with "oneness" being a logical perspective, though I do not seem to perceive it in the same way as most of its proponents. I like that though.

Shows how encompassing the boundaries of the human context are, and I truly do find beauty in the diversity.

I like to think of it in terms of the human body. It has many individual parts that make up the whole. They all have an effect on one another, and are symbiotic to a degree. Some may see them as separate, but it doesnt seem to change the idea that they all have a distinct effect on one another.

The typical view on "oneness" is that it can be contained within ONE part of the whole. That is, the individual perspective that is perceiving it. Most will not account for a disagreeing viewpoint, simply because it doesnt make sense from ones perspective. And yet, the disagreement is part of What Is by virtue of it existing. What is the Path for one part may not be the same as another part. The heart and lungs both have different needs, movements, and purposes. But look at how often the "lungs" try to tell the heart that it is "doing it wrong" (speaking metaphorically).

For myself, I put this into practice by understanding it in my own body. My mind was essentially controlling how I viewed all other systems contained within myself. Note that I look at the mind as distinct from the brain, though a product of it. I noticed that when doing breathing exercises, I was thinking about how I was breathing, rather than simply breathing. My lungs had their own way of "viewing the world," and my thoughts were stifling this valid viewpoint. I realized that I was relegating myself to just one part of myself. Even if such consciousness stops at the brain, I saw value in experiencing all that "life" has to offer in this way.

"I" existed solely in my thoughts, and yet there were all these systems that seemed to do just fine even when I did not think of them. This led me to logically conclude that I was willfully limiting myself to a small part of my being. Even if nothing existed beyond my brain, "things" most certainly did beyond my thoughts of them. In saying all of this, of course, these words are all products of thought. My heart and lungs et. al. could not care less

As always, I only speak for myself

This is good example of circular thinking which is often found with buddhist/enlightenment topics.
Which acheives nothing , except a mere conceptual result .

This is a physical , material world , even wavelengths being governed by material institutions , material laws .

Thus what is done with knowledge , is how to gain further knowledge . Meditation 'delinks' material matters temporarily , until you stop for lunch . "Have you eaten breakfast ? ...then go and wash your bowl" is a famous master 's sucessful retort to the question , How to know the buddha/?

Drop logic , its not the way , and the way does not conform to your expectations (yoda moment)
There is not so much a 'force' to use , but to facilitate the forces is to use them

Originally posted by BlueMule

Originally posted by TheSubversiveOne

Or maybe it's the other way around. And what you say is what your ego-self wants you to think. Maybe your ego-self makes you think you're actually killing it to be reborn, but it stays the same. So it presents you with a will to not use logic in order to withhold you from realizing this vicious cycle.

Learn the ways of mysticism / transpersonal psychology so that you can undergo ego-death... and then come back and say that. I dare you.

I had a period in my life where I did many psychedelic drugs. Trust me, I know of what you speak and put great profundity on. People with brain injuries and strokes experience ego death. Is it important? It is to some.

reply to post by TheSubversiveOne


I don't trust your perceptions of anything or your interpretations of anything, but I respect your right to have them. I will leave you to them, since it is my current feeling that you are not meant for enlightenment in this life. Not everyone is, and that doesn't make you a bad person, in case you were wondering. Good luck in your next life.

Originally posted by DJW001
reply to post by The X

 

Would you be able to tell if someone who said they were, was or was not Enlightened?.
How would you deduce if they were being truthful?, Just because a person says they are, does not mean they are not.

I praised the OP for his humility. Humility is an important part of enlightenment, don't you agree?

Is he enlightened as others here define it? Not even close. He's better than that. I believe seeking enlightenment is actually running away from the truth - a horrible, dreadful, depressing truth.

We are here. We are animals. We are aggressive. We are destroyers. This existence is all that there is, yet to accept that is just too frightening for sooooo many.

Ypperst is not just right, he's dead on. Why seek a higher truth when there are so many mouths to feed? Why reach for new dimensions when we should be reaching for peace as a species? Why seek heaven when we have flowers and songbirds and giggling children right here?

If we need to seek change, then that need is calling to us to relate better within our families, our neighborhoods, our countries and the entire world.

S&F Yppers! Good post.