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Folks are beginning to figure out the religion confidence game--and the wizzard has taken flight

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posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 08:18 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by MagnumOpus
Most of us will work on making Government work and have equity of protection for the people, not just for those willing to compromise their ethics for truth from the organized church. The organized churches are still in the mode of the flat earth society, and they are just as crackpot a story as when they tried to kill people for telling the world was not flat. imho


When did that happen?

Oh, right, another myth that you've latched onto as the truth
(Source).

So you think that the government is going to save the day? Wow, and you call Christians delusional, lol.


Social Security worked for a long time and it is in trouble due to Govt raiding the funds. Medicare helps the old and Medicade many others.

I think making that work is everyone's duty, as the rest of the world seems to do it. Nationalized health care works in most deveopled countries, except in the US.


So, the issue at hand is the organized churches are as dishonest now as they were found to be with the flat Earth theme. Now, the pressure builds as more folks read the Internet materials and discover all the news on the Annunaki theme, see the City of Ur where Abraham came from, and learn that those baked clay tablets were preserved from the flood and now give the world key insights as to what was happening with the Creator gods in the times of the Fertile Crescent. Suddenly folks see the agriculture sciences they taught, how the Ziggarat theme became the tower of babyl and later the theme for the pyramids around the world.


But those little books of the churches with blinders on don't want the public to learn the truths that make them look oh so ignorant of knowledge for religion. Most have the common sense to apply common sense to religion and in the 1700's this was strong with the Deists and it continues today with great levels of archiological discovery and high power science testing for the mitochondrial DNA roots of people across the planet. And we don't find god, but we do find some high powered sciences being taught to primitive peoples, along with some age old exploitation that appears to continue in some fashion via the churches dishonesty.

It is money wasted to cater to those that insist on being so blind to the truths for the history of god from the antiquities of the Fertile Crecent's sciences and genetic breeding experimentation. Spending money on those trying to return to the dark ages is really not money well spend and divides rather than unifies the world.


You also should not try to offer up untruthful accounts of the Church insistance on flat earth theme against Gallileo, when the history is very clear. A history that includes the churches admissions for being wrong and obstruction of science and truth:




en.wikipedia.org...

In September 1632, Galileo was ordered to come to Rome to stand trial, where he finally arrived in February 1633. Throughout his trial Galileo steadfastly maintained that since 1616 he had faithfully kept his promise not to hold any of the condemned opinions, and initially he denied even defending them. However, he was eventually persuaded to admit that, contrary to his true intention, a reader of his Dialogue could well have obtained the impression that it was intended to be a defence of Copernicanism. In view of Galileo's rather implausible denial that he had ever held Copernican ideas after 1616 or ever intended to defend them in the Dialogue, his final interrogation, in July 1633, concluded with his being threatened with torture if he did not tell the truth, but he maintained his denial despite the threat.[58] The sentence of the Inquisition was delivered on June 22. It was in three essential parts:

Galileo was found "vehemently suspect of heresy", namely of having held the opinions that the Sun lies motionless at the centre of the universe, that the Earth is not at its centre and moves, and that one may hold and defend an opinion as probable after it has been declared contrary to Holy Scripture. He was required to "abjure, curse and detest" those opinions.[59]
He was sentenced to formal imprisonment at the pleasure of the Inquisition.[60] On the following day this was commuted to house arrest, which he remained under for the rest of his life.
His offending Dialogue was banned; and in an action not announced at the trial, publication of any of his works was forbidden, including any he might write in the future.[61]

Tomb of Galileo Galilei, Santa CroceAccording to popular legend, after recanting his theory that the Earth moved around the Sun, Galileo allegedly muttered the rebellious phrase And yet it moves, but there is no evidence that he actually said this or anything similar. The first account of the legend dates to a century after his death.[62]

After a period with the friendly Ascanio Piccolomini (the Archbishop of Siena), Galileo was allowed to return to his villa at Arcetri near Florence in 1634, where he spent the remainder of his life under house arrest. Galileo was ordered to read the seven penitential psalms once a week for the next three years. However his daughter Maria Celeste relieved him of the burden after securing ecclesiastical permission to take it upon herself.[63]

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The Inquisition's ban on reprinting Galileo's works was lifted in 1718 when permission was granted to publish an edition of his works (excluding the condemned Dialogue) in Florence.[136] In 1741 Pope Benedict XIV authorised the publication of an edition of Galileo's complete scientific works[137] which included a mildly censored version of the Dialogue.[138] In 1758 the general prohibition against works advocating heliocentrism was removed from the Index of prohibited books, although the specific ban on uncensored versions of the Dialogue and Copernicus's De Revolutionibus remained.[139] All traces of official opposition to heliocentrism by the church disappeared in 1835 when these works were finally dropped from the Index.[140]

In 1939 Pope Pius XII, in his first speech to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, within a few months of his election to the papacy, described Galileo as being among the "most audacious heroes of research... not afraid of the stumbling blocks and the risks on the way, nor fearful of the funereal monuments".[141] His close advisor of 40 years, Professor Robert Leiber wrote: "Pius XII was very careful not to close any doors (to science) prematurely. He was energetic on this point and regretted that in the case of Galileo."[142]

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On 31 October 1992, Pope John Paul II expressed regret for how the Galileo affair was handled, and issued a declaration acknowledging the errors committed by the Catholic Church tribunal that judged the scientific positions of Galileo Galilei, as the result of a study conducted by the Pontifical Council for Culture.[145][146] In March 2008 the head of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, Nicola Cabibbo, announced a plan to honour Galileo by erecting a statue of him inside the Vatican walls.[147] In December of the same year, during events to mark the 400th anniversary of Galileo's earliest telescopic observations, Pope Benedict XVI praised his contributions to astronomy.[148]



edit on 5-7-2012 by MagnumOpus because: The Flat Earth Society of religions obstructs scientific and critical thinking knowledge and progress in the world




posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 08:43 PM
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Originally posted by MagnumOpus

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by MagnumOpus
Most of us will work on making Government work and have equity of protection for the people, not just for those willing to compromise their ethics for truth from the organized church. The organized churches are still in the mode of the flat earth society, and they are just as crackpot a story as when they tried to kill people for telling the world was not flat. imho


When did that happen?

Oh, right, another myth that you've latched onto as the truth
(Source).

So you think that the government is going to save the day? Wow, and you call Christians delusional, lol.


Social Security worked for a long time and it is in trouble due to Govt raiding the funds.


Well, it's nice to know that your ignorance isn't limited to matters of religion


The government has not raided the Social Security funds, the program is in trouble because people live too long, most remove far more money than they put in, and raising tax rate to what it should be or cutting benefits to what people put in would be political suicide. That wasn't a problem when there were lots of workers paying into the system and not so many old people taking out, but those numbers are reversing and the fund will be bankrupted by the Baby Boomers unless something is changed.

President Obama's answer in 2011 was to CUT the contribution rate of employees, so I hold out little hope for Social Security. (Source) There's your "Government will save the day" for you



So, the issue at hand is the organized churches are as dishonest now as they were found to be with the flat Earth theme.


I see that you didn't bother reading the link I provided, so I'll "flat" out tell you -- your claim that the Church killed people who thought that the Earth was flat is a myth, it didn't happen.



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 09:24 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen

I see that you didn't bother reading the link I provided, so I'll "flat" out tell you -- your claim that the Church killed people who thought that the Earth was flat is a myth, it didn't happen.



This is the exact wording I used: " The organized churches are still in the mode of the flat earth society, and they are just as crackpot a story now as when they tried to kill people for telling the world was not flat. imho"

Which is an accurate statement for Gallileo's Inquistion by the Vatican.


I read your Gallileo apologist nonsense and it was laughable, since even the Vatican admits the issues and apologizes. I also repled to the faked up apologist game you tried to dump on the list with the real Vatican History.

You have to be one of the most screwed up historians in the world. That isn't what I said! The church is called the Flat Earth Society because it pushed the Earth was Flat and Not Spherical, as Gallileo proved.

So far you have screwed up that I claimed Jefferson was an athiest, and it gets worse and worse as you try to turn around a statement on Flat Earth society. Now you can't even keep straight what Gallileo claimed and what the Vatican wanted to kill him over with an Inquisition.

Everyone knows that the Pope pushed Gallaleo into a case for Inquistion and had he not recanted his view that the Earth was Spherical he would have gotten death, just as all the Inquisions did to Jews that refused to recant Judaism and become Christian. The church killed people for heresy.

The church fully intended to kill Gallaleo if he held to his belief, and it is a part of religion history.




www.findagrave.com...

In 1632, Galileo published his best written work, "A Dialogue on the Two Principal Systems of the World" in which he expressed his support for Copernicius against Aristotle.

The Church Inquisition then tried him, and forced him to state that he had changed his mind; had he refused to recant, the penalty was death.


The Church sentenced him to an indefinite prison term, but confined him to his villa in Florence. There he spent his last years writing on the laws of force and motion, publishing "Dialogues on the Two New Sciences" in 1638, which summed up his life's work on gravity, motion and acceleration, and furnished the basis for the three Laws of Motion laid down by Sir Isaac Newton in 1687. The Inquisition kept him confined to his home for the next five years, until his death in 1642, but his contribution to science has far outlived the Inquisition.




Maybe you need to depend on that one book some more, so you can illogically screw up the world's history too.

edit on 5-7-2012 by MagnumOpus because: So much for Christian logic and history abilty, and being the obvious apologists for corrupt churches



posted on Jul, 5 2012 @ 10:08 PM
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Originally posted by MagnumOpus

Originally posted by adjensen

I see that you didn't bother reading the link I provided, so I'll "flat" out tell you -- your claim that the Church killed people who thought that the Earth was flat is a myth, it didn't happen.


Which is an accurate statement for Gallileo's Inquistion by the Vatican.

You have to be one of the most screwed up historians in the world. That isn't what I said! The church is called the Flat Earth Society because it pushed the Earth was Flat and Not Spherical, as Gallileo proved.


... and we can add history and physics into the list of areas you need to brush up on


Galileo wasn't accused of wrongly claiming that the Earth was round, he was condemned for saying that the Earth revolved around the sun, rather than the sun revolving around the Earth. At the time, there was a debate within the Church regarding Copernicus, and Galileo (a personal friend of the Pope) was asked to help resolve the issue, and he went in with the wrong side (politically, he was obviously on the right side, physics wise.) In addition, he unwisely attempted to bring the Pope in on the issue in one of his books, which pretty much ended his favouritism right there.

As for your obsession with "flat Earth", that the Earth is round was fairly widely known in the west hundreds of years before Christ -- the Greek Pythagoras (he of the theorem) had sorted it out in the sixth century BC, and Eratosthenes came up with a pretty spot on measurement of it's circumference in 240 BC. Tales of Columbus having to convince Queen Isabella and his crew of the non-flatness of the Earth are just that, tales.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 05:41 AM
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I think that most know the church was not into science. Most of the Church Vision on Earth was two dimensional due to the various narrative citations that spoke to the four corners of the Earth.

Even the issue for the Cross with the 4 seasons was a two dimensional mindset.

Bible Narratives that speak to the issues of Flat Earth are these and many others



Isaiah 11:12
And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Revelations 7:1
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.



and the long held theme for Flat Earth is:




en.wikipedia.org...

The notion of a flat Earth continues to be referred to in a wide range of contexts. Indirect references to the theory include the widely used idiom "the four corners of the earth". The term "flat-Earther" is often used in a derogatory sense to mean anyone who holds views so antiquated as to be ridiculous.




While science showed the off axis of the Earth was 7.5 degrees, that formed the 4 seasons, the church remained in a two dimensional mindset, which was a large part of their issues with Gallileo and science.

Flat Earth concepts involved the issues of the denial of spherical Earth, and the 7.5 degree axis tilt, as well as the concept of non earth centered solar system and non Earth centered universe. Gallileo's telescope proved the issues of spherical planetary objects as well as the Sun centered solar system, as each could be visually seen to the eye and thus proven..

The key to Gallileo's discoveries is the telescope that yeilded visual substance to the sperical and not round Earth concepts of two dimensional thinking, as well as the 7.5 degree axis tilt, and how the seasons came from that effect. Departure from flat earth bible vision into 3 dimensional Orb science was the key to Gallileo's findings with the telescope.


edit on 6-7-2012 by MagnumOpus because: Gallileo's three dimensional non-biblical science



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 08:49 AM
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reply to post by MagnumOpus
 


Why are you still going on about this? Are you that stubborn to admit that you're wrong? Or are you just so hateful of Christians that you're willing to lie over and over in a vain attempt to smear them?


How does investigating the myth of the flat earth help teachers of the history of science?

A curious example of this mistreatment of the past for the purpose of slandering Christians is a widespread historical error, an error that the Historical Society of Britain some years back listed as number one in its short compendium of the ten most common historical illusions. It is the notion that people used to believe that the earth was flat--especially medieval Christians.

It must first be reiterated that with extraordinary few exceptions no educated person in the history of Western Civilization from the third century B.C. onward believed that the earth was flat.

(Source)



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 10:40 AM
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I didn't run around telling everyone that all the words in the Bible are true and are the word of god. That was your buddies and your book's claim to infamy.

So, that means god says the Earth has four corners, and it has to be flat to do that. Opps, god has been made fallable and the Pope also.

The Flat Earth term then gets into the issues of god and is there a god. Flat Earth concepts in the bible texts get put down as fantasy land and wrong and then they get to the same fantasy issues for god being fantasy.

Especially, the made up concepts for Jesus being god.

Gallileo started the admissions that the Bible was fallable using science, and the word of god wasn't true. Gallileo used the telescope for real celestial observations of the Moon's Mountains and the 7 moons of Jupiter. Gallileo changed optics from spy glasses to telescopes for celestial sciences and the race was on toward larger optics and barrel lengths for greater power and soon the reflector scope come on the scene.




galileoandeinstein.phys.virginia.edu...

Galileo’s next major discovery began with his observation on January 7, 1610, of what he took to be a rather odd set of three small fixed stars near Jupiter, and, in fact, collinear with the planet. These stars were invisible to the naked eye. He looked again at Jupiter on successive nights, and by the 15th had realized that he was looking at moons of Jupiter, which were going around the planet with periods of the order of days. This caused even more consternation than the demystification of the Moon. Seven was a sacred number, and there were seven planets, wanderers, or moving stars. Jupiter’s moons spoiled this. Furthermore, they suggested that it was o.k. to go in a circle about something other than the center of the universe, i.e. the Earth. This made Copernicus’ argument, that the Moon goes around the Earth and the Earth around the Sun, more plausible.

Again, Galileo’s grantsmanship is admirable. In a masterstroke of public relations, he named the satellites after the Medici family, Dukes of Tuscany, where he applied for the position of mathematician to the court. He sent his most recent 20X telescope to the Duke, so that he could peruse the stars named after him and his brothers, and emphasized its military applicability.




I think we have excellent evidence now that the Bible thumpers telling the world the big book is the word of god and is infallable truth isn't so.

Now, after the church wanted to kill Gallileo unless he recanted his discoveries, was the church trying to screw up truth and science over ancient superstition that the Bible is the word of god. Gallileo showed the Earth didn't have four corners, viewed the 7 moons of Jupiter going around in circles and that it was just as fashionable that Earth was the center of nothing, neither the solar system nor the universe. Earth became nothing special in the grand scheme of things, and neither was the bible's words.


Flat Earth these days just recounts that relgion called the Earth Flat in the early times, and this was wrong. Via the same Flat Earth concepts the Earth had to be the center for the solar system and universe, but that was wrong also. And the same Flat Earth religion concepts tell that Jesus is god, and that isn't true either. That is the unholy trinity of the Church Flat Earth society that denies that which is obvious today using science.


We didn't really get the whole visual evidence for the Earth was spherical until man got into space and it is almost spherical. And the new telescopes tell us more of the universe. But it also shows everyone that the issues for the Annumaki of Sumeria are very possible, in the sense of Gallileo and the 7-moons orbiting Jupiter. Now, the same sort of criteria that enabled Gallileo enables the concepts for the Annunaki and the Sumerian Tablets as being the true concept for what man called god in these ancient times.

Thus, the flat earth term for the church is also finding use again for the churches denial of the truth of the creator gods and the issues of space and the heavens being better defined. All the religion games on Jesus is god is flat earth type thinking, and even the concept for these creater gods as being real god is wrong.

Thus, we have the proof showing that this silly book's concepts have hindered human knowledge and advancement of science that once again has the wizzard religion leaders taking flight because they can't deal with the issues of science tearing down these long held false concepts of religion and primitive man.


edit on 6-7-2012 by MagnumOpus because: Bogus concepts in the Bible and Religion falling down and being trampled by science.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 12:18 PM
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Originally posted by MagnumOpus
Gallileo started the admissions that the Bible was fallable using science, and the word of god wasn't true.


Well, I'm going to ignore the rest of your blather, because I've already shown that your "flat Earth" nonsense is just that. If you want to continue to wallow in your ignorance, feel free, but it makes your arguments look very foolish and only one who utterly agreed with you already wouldn't dismiss your theories, and you, out of hand.

However, you are quite incorrect as regards Galileo and what his belief in God was. The issue at hand was not "science versus church", but, rather, which "science" the church espoused. At the time, the church had an Aristotelean view (Aristotle, the Greek, not Christian, it should be pointed out,) which viewed the cosmos as moving around the Earth, a fixed point. Copernicus, which Galileo advocated, said that the cosmos, including the Earth, revolved around the Sun, a fixed point. This was a point of contention, eventually resolved in favour of Copernicus (well, sort of -- the whole "cosmos going round the sun" bit didn't carry forward, obviously,) but change comes hard to established views.

We have seen something similar in the last hundred years. Einstein, likely the most famous scientist ever, when presented with the theories of Quantum Mechanics, refused to accept them, going so far as to have a series of debates with Niels Bohr over them. Though little is yet truly understood about the Quantum world, it is generally accepted as being a real thing today, making Einstein and his position anachronistic.

Finally, Galileo didn't refute the Bible, he thought that the Copernican Cosmology was supported in scripture. He wrote:


I think in the first place that it is very pious to say and prudent to affirm that the Holy Bible can never speak untruth—whenever its true meaning is understood.


and


Copernicus did not ignore the Bible, but he knew very well that if his doctrine were proved, then it could not contradict the Scripture when they were rightly understood.


(Source: Galileo "Concerning the Use of Biblical Quotations in Matters of Science.")

In other words, when science and scripture seemed to be at odds, it wasn't the Bible that was wrong, it was the interpretation of the Bible that was wrong. This is, perhaps ironically, also the current official stance of the Roman Catholic Church.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 05:29 PM
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I think we have watched your little tactics game from the beginning of attemption to tell I called Jefferson an Atheist. You appear to have this need to misread and mistate things to suit your need for control. I have seen this used by many to try to place persons off balance with bending statements to other than what was stated.

It didn't work, caught and deal't with that one. Then you have to get off on another grand standing game with Bill Maher. And on down the line. You run off with Bill Maher is an athiest rant and you don't like him. I like him just fine.

Then you had to try you same game again to mislead on what I said of the Church wanting to kill Gallileo, and you rather tried to ignore the Inquisition against Gallileo, which would have had him killed. Fear of the church kept much progress from happening.


The Church was the law back then and science had to try to stay away from being burned at the stake for seeing anything differently than the Church wanted. Copernicus was so afraid to publish his theme on the Sun Centered solar system that it didn't happen until after his death.

The Church was set to burn Gallileo at the stake had he not recanted his Copernicus support, and they still demanded house arrest till death because they were so opposed to science of reality in watching the planets with a celestial telescope. The Church was nothing more than a dictatorship that didn't allow science and debate on matters that came close to issues of Heaven and gods. The church science sure didn't know 3 dimensional science of the planets and how the 7.5 degree tilt of the Earth made the seasons change, and kept up the nonsense of Earth is the center for everything.


The Bible is wrong in many areas, and most especially the areas that folks like Jefferson pointed out with no miracles and Jesus was not god via his Jefferson Bible. We all have noticed you are the big Bible Thumper and there is an endless procession of apologists trying to spin the information to keep the people from spotting the misleading games of religion. Time has come for science to run over religion nonsense that keeps people stuck in the dark ages. It is time for stupidity to stop breeding greater ignorance using religion.


The Vatican and the Churches still hate organizations like the Masons that study the old histories and find that Jesus was not god. The Vatican excommunicated Masons if they found out a Catholic joined the Masons. These days they had to invent the York Rite to keep from getting the Catholics that wanted to join the Masons from being excommunicated. The York Rite was made just for the Catholics and you don't learn lots of essential teachings from the Mystery Schools due to that.

Many parts of the Bible are nothing but a Con Job and the Masons, via their Scottish Rite degrees of learning, show folks the reality of things. Deists do about the same, so the founding fathers of the US were a combination of Masons and Deists, or Washington and Jefferson, and their beliefs were similar and much of the European religion thought spawed the Masons and the Deist truths in the 1700s.


You can keep trying to pull your Bible apologetics routines on others, but the world is wising up to the faked up games for religion. More and more of the world is growing to disrespect these dishonest games of religion that mislead folks and try to stamp out Free Thought with flawed mantra.

Most of the informed critical thinking folks will continue to call the functional illiteracy of religion as the Flat Earth society because the religion told them so and the book is never wrong. The book has many wrong areas, even forged areas, and the biggest one of the Con game on what god is about.

In the days of Gallileo folks could not speak the truth, nor use sciences to prove better knowledge. But these days we can speak against the wrongs of the churches and their misleading folks and making up huge sordid tales to keep power and control, and drag money out of people via that huge production of faked up god themes.


Most that did the work to take a deep look into the world of organized religion find they can't respect what they claim.




edit on 6-7-2012 by MagnumOpus because: The world is well on the way toward seeing sciences run over the faked up religion games.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 06:30 PM
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reply to post by MagnumOpus
 


Oh, I didn't know we were looking for a recap of the thread...

1) You claimed that Bill Maher was a modern day Thomas Jefferson. I pointed out that Jefferson was a Deist and if he was around today, he'd likely punch Bill Maher in the face. You then claimed that Maher, too, was a Deist, which I showed to be completely false

2) You claimed that Christian charities steal (from who?) in order to do good. Requests for documentation of such thefts have fallen on deaf ears

3) You claimed that Social Security was going bankrupt because the government was "raiding its funds" and also claimed that government would take care of things. I showed you the real reason that Social Security will fail and lol'ed at your faith in a bloated government that thinks cutting Social Security income somehow staves off that bankruptcy.

4) You claimed that the Church persecuted people for not believing that the Earth was flat. When presented with evidence to the contrary, including the statement that the Historical Society of Britain named it one of the most ridiculous misperceptions (well, flat out deception on the part of anti-Christians) you ignored it and continue to spout your flat Earth foolishness

5) You then claimed that Galileo was persecuted for saying that the Earth wasn't flat. When shown the error of that statement, you followed up by saying that Galileo opposed the Church and refuted the Bible. When shown the error of that, you're back to the flat Earth nonsense

There are probably other things, those five are the ones that come to mind.

Church apologetics? Who had need of those when you are so utterly devoid of knowledge in basic history and insist on babbling on in subjects that you not only appear to know absolutely nothing of, but manage to make statements that are pretty much 100% wrong.

My advice to you would be to turn off the computer, find a book on history and read it, because you do far more damage to your "cause" than any good. I'd recommend Will Durant, he doesn't much like Christianity, either, but "The Story of Civilization" is a definitive work.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 07:16 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen

3) You claimed that Social Security was going bankrupt because the government was "raiding its funds" and also claimed that government would take care of things. I showed you the real reason that Social Security will fail and lol'ed at your faith in a bloated government that thinks cutting Social Security income somehow staves off that bankruptcy.



Gee, the previous said you were ignoring everything, guess you don't ever do what you say or speak accurately.

Most folks, that can read, know the Social Security issue much better than you. Forbes addresses the issue well and uses the same terms as I used. Ah yes, I can read Forbes.




www.forbes.com...

The answer is that the federal government has borrowed all of that trust fund money and spent it, exactly as Krauthammer asserted. And the only way the trust fund can get some cash to pay Social Security benefits is if the federal government draws it from general revenues or borrows the money—which, of course, it can’t do because of the debt ceiling.

-----

www.forbes.com...

For more than a quarter century after the 1983 amendments to Social Security, the federal government collected more in Social Security payroll taxes each year than it paid out in benefits. Those surplus revenues were supposed to be saved, but instead Congress spent every last dime of them and replaced the excess payroll tax revenue it looted from the Social Security Trust Fund with I.O.U.s written to itself. At the end of 2010 the federal government owed the Trust Fund $2.61 trillion.



SS is not really on topic, so I do think my point is well supported by a leading financial magazine's reporting, and it is time to get back to religion and not another of your fantasy issues the become the apologist for Congress raiding the SS Fund excess money.

I think Forbes basically tosses your less than honest opinion on SS under the bus and it is shown to be misleading on the raiding issues. But, this happens a lot with your methods, one more case in point.

Folks that get involved in Govt. and hold the Congress accountable can keep them honest so these things don't happen. If folks were not so conditioned to accept lies, as the church does to people, then the citizens would have a much more responsible Govt. Congress obviously looks at the gullibilty of people in churches and spins just as many false tails and claims of faith as the corrupted church games on god, life after death, and other uttler nonsense. imho


edit on 6-7-2012 by MagnumOpus because: Church spin games open the door to Govt Corruption due to acceptance of dishonest methods.



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 07:48 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen

1) You claimed that Bill Maher was a modern day Thomas Jefferson. I pointed out that Jefferson was a Deist and if he was around today, he'd likely punch Bill Maher in the face. You then claimed that Maher, too, was a Deist, which I showed to be completely false



Let do another one of your slanted views on things that ends up being inaccurate. What I wrote was this:


"Yes, Bill Mahr has always been well read and not afraid to speak to what he thinks. He is likely in the realm of Thomas Jefferson in his thinking and intentions on reality."


So, one does have to recall the meaning for the word "realm," and you obviously don't know what the word means or you just have intention to mislead the readers.




vocabulary-vocabulary.com...

Vocabulary Building Dictionary
realm--noun

Definition: 1. an area of knowledge, interest, or specialty

Realm can be used as a more sophisticated way of saying "area,"



Then, I went on to quote one of Maher's views on god that exactly matched the theme for Deism, which I also quoted. It appears Maher's view of god matched Deism's view exactly, as shown via citations of each.


Thus, you claim on completely false is pure nonsense and a departure from what was said and show with explicit detail.

Again, you mislead via inaccurate recall of what was stated. imho

It would appear that you make a practice of doing this sort of misleading commentary, as it shows up again and again.

Is this the method the corrupt churches have taught you to do, after all you could well have quoted exactly what I said. But then your entire account of what I said would have failed, but failed now because I show that your recount is dishonest and slanted to move away from the truth for what was said very plainly. imho


edit on 6-7-2012 by MagnumOpus because: Do the Churches teach people to distort truth. It appears so. imho



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 08:39 PM
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Originally posted by MagnumOpus

Originally posted by adjensen

3) You claimed that Social Security was going bankrupt because the government was "raiding its funds" and also claimed that government would take care of things. I showed you the real reason that Social Security will fail and lol'ed at your faith in a bloated government that thinks cutting Social Security income somehow staves off that bankruptcy.



Gee, the previous said you were ignoring everything, guess you don't ever do what you say or speak accurately.

Most folks, that can read, know the Social Security issue much better than you. Forbes addresses the issue well and uses the same terms as I used. Ah yes, I can read Forbes.


Ah, what you are looking at there is the question of where the actual money is -- it was sold, as bonds, to the Federal government. The Social Security Administration still has those assets, but they are bonds, not cash, and if they hadn't borrowed the money to the Federal government, they'd have borrowed it to someone else, to earn interest. They aren't going to just stuff it under a mattress somewhere.

Whether that's a good idea, and whether it results in a shell game (which benefits the Feds, not the SSA) is debatable, but what's not debatable is that they'll get the money back, with interest, when the bonds come due, and that the REAL problem with Social Security is what I cited.

Here ya go, an "independent study", complete with purdy pichers. Don't say I never did anything for you


A Primer on the Social Security Crisis



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 10:52 PM
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Why do I always get the impression that you have the ethics of a used car salesman. The reason the Citizens claim that Congress raids the SS fund is due to Congress pulling strings to buy low yield treasuries. No retirement fund manager in their right mind would do that when they can make at least 5 times that in the private sectors with individual level money.

With the volume of money in the SS excess fund they can get lots better rates that that.

So, when they speak to raiding the SS fund, it means screwing the Citizens by buying into low yeild monetary devices. The SS fund would not even be close to these issues if they were not into the low yeild games of the Govt. screwing the old folks pension fund.

Enough on the SS issues.
edit on 6-7-2012 by MagnumOpus because: Vapid logic and omissons of essential factors



posted on Jul, 6 2012 @ 11:13 PM
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reply to post by MagnumOpus
 


Meh, I'm an accountant who studied political science and history in school, so, like I said, it's debatable. Fiscally, it makes sense, because they needed to do something with that money, and they're guaranteed a return which, if they'd have bought bonds from Morgan Stanley or Citigroup or someone, maybe not.

No one seems to grasp that all those deficits that the Federal government incurs actually requires getting the cash from someplace. For the past decade, that's meant selling bonds to China and, domestically, the Social Security Administration. We can stiff the Chinese (at the risk of war, I suppose) but we'll never stiff the SSA, because the AARP will vote whoever does it out of office, lol.



posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 12:44 AM
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reply to post by adjensen
 





As for your obsession with "flat Earth", that the Earth is round was fairly widely known in the west hundreds of years before Christ -- the Greek Pythagoras (he of the theorem) had sorted it out in the sixth century BC, and Eratosthenes came up with a pretty spot on measurement of it's circumference in 240 BC.



Let us not forget the advanced knowledge written in the confines of the scriptures. Even the Prophet Isaiah knew the earth was round 700 years before Christ. It's amazing how the ancients weren't as backwards as some modern people think.

Isaiah 40:22

22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.


Science in the bible...who knew
. It's not like we didn't have someone telling us this stuff already. The Magic Man in the Sky for instance, telling Moses man was made from dirt before the periodic table, microscopes and advanced anatomy could confirm that yes indeed, that the creatures of the earth were made from the elements of the earth and from...dust...stardust, just like mainstream science says everything came from stardust
.

And that the great flood also happened because...petrified trees were found 650 feet down on the bottom of the gulf of mexico located in an underwater brine lake.





Science catching up to the bible
.



posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 06:35 AM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000


Let us not forget the advanced knowledge written in the confines of the scriptures. Even the Prophet Isaiah knew the earth was round 700 years before Christ. It's amazing how the ancients weren't as backwards as some modern people think.

Isaiah 40:22

22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.


Science in the bible...who knew
. It's not like we didn't have someone telling us this stuff already.


I think most that know the terms you and Isaiah use recognize they are 2 dimensional terms and fit the flat-Earth Society claim. So, the educated are going to be rolling in the flood laughing out loud at the ignorance of religion.

Anyone with high school geometry knows the "circle" is a term in planar geometry of 2 dimensions, or the geometery of flat planes. Such is a flat earth term.

Take your term of "round", which again is a pure planar term for flat circle.

You have just proven several of the flat earth terms and that the church bible thumpers don't even know the difference between "planar two-dimensional" terms and the "3-dimensional space terms needed to express spherical shapes for planets. or the Orb shape, and the 3-space geometry needed to deal with the 7.5 degree Earth tilt that makes the seasons.


edit on 7-7-2012 by MagnumOpus because: The Vapidity is sometimes astounding.



posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 06:53 AM
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Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by MagnumOpus
 


No one seems to grasp that all those deficits that the Federal government incurs actually requires getting the cash from someplace.


It is really bad when you ignore your own reference that shows in the last bar chart what the problem really is with the explotation of the SS trust money by Congress.



www.independent.org...



The last bar chart shows the difference in returns for how Congress Exploits or Raids the trust money of the Old to fund the US wars and bad capitalistic exploitation. When the money isn't exploited or raided by Congress and put into poor investment interests it makes 5 times the return, at the individual's capitalization level. Add in the huge amounts in the trust and the returns are far greater, and so great that the SS money would never be drained or get into trouble.

The bad choices of grabbing the SS trust money and forcing it into bad financial instruments is what they call Congressional Raiding of the SS trust money. What that then does is lay the need for these bad investment methods to be made up by the younger people in the system.

It is all about Congress not opting to allow making best rate of return money for the citizens paid into the trust fund, and instead chosing to exploit the old and bleed down the money for their excess overspending in Congress via poor return investing. Such is poor stewardship of the old folks money and exploitation and raiding for the money. It is a very dirty game Congress plays in screwing the old out of their retirement money.

And your own source shows the real problem, which you ignore in total. Each individual could take the same money they paid into SS and get a handsome retirement amount by choosing not to buy low return money instruments. So, the problem is Congress and their run away costs being tossed on the backs of the SS trust fund by exploitation and those younger by the higher taxes needed to make up the shortfalls because of these exploitative methods of a corrupt Congress.

Back to the theme-------Religion is a Confidence game.

One thing that I notice is the Religion folks will even use jumping off themes to avoid the real deal theme being discussed and exposed. They also don't even seems to have the processing skills to cut to the chase on even Govt. exploitation matters for the old by using economic Confidence Games of Congress to exploit and abuse the system.

Get back in the religion theme. SS isn't religion. This isn't the accountant channel.

edit on 7-7-2012 by MagnumOpus because: Getting back into the religion theme and the Confidence Game



posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 07:28 AM
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Originally posted by adjensen

5) You then claimed that Galileo was persecuted for saying that the Earth wasn't flat. When shown the error of that statement, you followed up by saying that Galileo opposed the Church and refuted the Bible. When shown the error of that, you're back to the flat Earth nonsense



It sounds to me like you never read the concepts of Copernican system. So, take a look, and especially look at the diagrams.




csep10.phys.utk.edu...




What one finds is all the arguments for Copernican system are two dimensional, and fit a flat earth theme and all concepts drawn in a 2-space plane.

It was Galileo that was able to introduce the details of the Moon's mountains and the spherical shape issues, and the issues of Moons being spherical and revolving around Jupiter. Galileo introduced 3 space geometry into the issues for planets. Copernicus model was one of only two dimensions, as shown.

So, much of Galileo's evidence departed from flat Earth geometry into 3-space or spheres. Most couple the 3-space thinking with how the issue for Sun centered was proven and one can't exist without the other.


Even Thomas Jefferson took note of the Galileo addition of spherical thinking:




xroads.virginia.edu...

Galileo was sent to the inquisition for affirming that the earth was a sphere: the government had declared it to be as flat as a trencher, and Galileo was obliged to abjure his error.



Most recognized that Galileo's Celestial Telescope allowed the visual evidence of spherical shape of the planets and moons to be seen with the eye for the first time. So, a large part of what Galileo contributed to the ideas of Earth was the departure from flat earth concepts that were a part of the Copernican geometry.

Jefferson recognized the connections between the two issues and that the issue that came first was the high power telescope that allowed the spherical 3-space models to happen, and then came the additional translation of the Copernican 2-space model into a 3-space and spherical type thinking.


edit on 7-7-2012 by MagnumOpus because: The telescope and the 3-space mode of thinking that departed from flat-Earth models



posted on Jul, 7 2012 @ 08:14 AM
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reply to post by MagnumOpus
 





think most that know the terms you and Isaiah use recognize they are 2 dimensional terms and fit the flat-Earth Society claim. So, the educated are going to be rolling in the flood laughing out loud at the ignorance of religion


Speculate much? It's interesting to see how you know what was in the mind if a man whose been dead 2700 years. Arrogant much?



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