Duck and cover when that flames are coming down. Duuuuuuck and cover
Before you condemn Islam, page 1
Topic started on 28-6-2012 @ 05:38 PM by petrus4
This was a reply of mine elsewhere, but I'm giving it its' own thread, because I consider it important, and because it is actually a different
topic.
I believe MidnightTide is correct. I think a lot of Muslims (particularly in Pakistan) would want to kill me for what I have written. I have felt in fear for my life from Muslims before.
However, the reason why they would do that, is because they would falsely associate themselves as individuals, with Islam as the overall religion. I have reached a point, where I do not blame Islam as an overall religion, for the behaviour of its' individual followers.
I believe that there are a lot of belligerent, aggressive, and even murderous Muslims in the world. They would be entirely willing to kill anyone who would reprimand them for said behaviour, as being unworthy of God. I also know, however, and have seen on this forum, that there are a great many Muslims who are positive, compassionate, and principled people as well; and they do not behave in that manner.
So I meant what I said, when I said I was not criticising Islam as a religion, but individual Muslims.
I have now taken the time to study the writings of three different religions; Christianity, Hinduism, and (to a lesser extent, admittedly) Islam. What I have found, is that Islam's Prophet was correct when stating that God is one, but that Muslims misinterpret that statement. What Mohammed meant (and he also clarifies this in the Qu'ran as well) is that God can be worshipped by different people in different ethnic groups throughout the world, there will still be found persistent or universal characteristics of the divine attitude; and those characteristics are, as well as moral restraint, love, compassion, humanism, and a desire for justice.
So I believe that the contemporary Muslims who say that it is impossible for a person to know God outside Islam, and that everyone who exists outside Islam should be killed, are wrong. If you look at the Hindu scriptures you will find confirmation of the same positive divine characteristics which Mohammed talks about in the earlier passages of the Qu'ran; and within the (admittedly very limited, in canon terms at least) words of Jesus you find the same attitude, and the same values being expressed.
A religion of hatred, fear, and violence, is not a religion of God. Islam itself, however, is not such a religion in its' entirety. There is much good within it; it is simply that false material was added to it as well, and then the equally false doctrine of abrogation was used, in order to justify said material. So I believe that any Muslim who would murder me as an infidel, is in fact an infidel themselves.
I do not take any one single scripture, as evidence of what I consider to be the personality of God. I take the common elements which I have been able to find from several of them, as well as my own contact with Kali Ma, and the way she has treated me, as such evidence. What she has told me, and what I have been able to deduce from these three sets of scripture, is that rage, hatred, and fear, should never be emotional states which motivate a person's actions. That, by definition, rules out murdering those considered infidels, or those considered to have committed apostasy.
The main reason why I love this song, is because Islam has been consistently a taboo subject among virtually everyone I've known, for as long as I've been alive. The thing I've been discovering though, is that the reason why Islam doesn't get spoken about, is because of the intolerance and ugliness of many of its adherents.
I won't lie. I think it's entirely possible that individual Muslims still will overrun this planet, and yes, they probably would kill me for writing this if they could, because they don't understand, and they won't stop and try and think about it. Many of them do wish to supplant or destroy every other culture and religion that exists. They think they are divinely entitled or even commanded to do so, and I consider that a false belief. However, in that attitude, they follow roughly the same behaviour pattern as Christians, albeit to a somewhat more extreme degree. Christian militancy and fundamentalism does exist in America; but we need to remember that the nature of Jesus Christ himself, is and was diametrically opposed to that of 98% of so-called Christians.
Islam is a religion which is defiled by many of its' followers. There is much positive material there; but for the most part, you won't see it by observing Muslims. The faith itself can be good; it is some of the people who are not.
Originally posted by Ilovecatbinlady
reply to post by MidnightTide
That is the problem, a significant proportion of Muslims practicing Islam DO believe in those violent passages. Just your post alone would target you for death.
You will have to prove your comment. You will gave to prove that an atser will be targeted for death over his comment by Muslims.
I believe MidnightTide is correct. I think a lot of Muslims (particularly in Pakistan) would want to kill me for what I have written. I have felt in fear for my life from Muslims before.
However, the reason why they would do that, is because they would falsely associate themselves as individuals, with Islam as the overall religion. I have reached a point, where I do not blame Islam as an overall religion, for the behaviour of its' individual followers.
I believe that there are a lot of belligerent, aggressive, and even murderous Muslims in the world. They would be entirely willing to kill anyone who would reprimand them for said behaviour, as being unworthy of God. I also know, however, and have seen on this forum, that there are a great many Muslims who are positive, compassionate, and principled people as well; and they do not behave in that manner.
So I meant what I said, when I said I was not criticising Islam as a religion, but individual Muslims.
I have now taken the time to study the writings of three different religions; Christianity, Hinduism, and (to a lesser extent, admittedly) Islam. What I have found, is that Islam's Prophet was correct when stating that God is one, but that Muslims misinterpret that statement. What Mohammed meant (and he also clarifies this in the Qu'ran as well) is that God can be worshipped by different people in different ethnic groups throughout the world, there will still be found persistent or universal characteristics of the divine attitude; and those characteristics are, as well as moral restraint, love, compassion, humanism, and a desire for justice.
So I believe that the contemporary Muslims who say that it is impossible for a person to know God outside Islam, and that everyone who exists outside Islam should be killed, are wrong. If you look at the Hindu scriptures you will find confirmation of the same positive divine characteristics which Mohammed talks about in the earlier passages of the Qu'ran; and within the (admittedly very limited, in canon terms at least) words of Jesus you find the same attitude, and the same values being expressed.
A religion of hatred, fear, and violence, is not a religion of God. Islam itself, however, is not such a religion in its' entirety. There is much good within it; it is simply that false material was added to it as well, and then the equally false doctrine of abrogation was used, in order to justify said material. So I believe that any Muslim who would murder me as an infidel, is in fact an infidel themselves.
I do not take any one single scripture, as evidence of what I consider to be the personality of God. I take the common elements which I have been able to find from several of them, as well as my own contact with Kali Ma, and the way she has treated me, as such evidence. What she has told me, and what I have been able to deduce from these three sets of scripture, is that rage, hatred, and fear, should never be emotional states which motivate a person's actions. That, by definition, rules out murdering those considered infidels, or those considered to have committed apostasy.
The main reason why I love this song, is because Islam has been consistently a taboo subject among virtually everyone I've known, for as long as I've been alive. The thing I've been discovering though, is that the reason why Islam doesn't get spoken about, is because of the intolerance and ugliness of many of its adherents.
I won't lie. I think it's entirely possible that individual Muslims still will overrun this planet, and yes, they probably would kill me for writing this if they could, because they don't understand, and they won't stop and try and think about it. Many of them do wish to supplant or destroy every other culture and religion that exists. They think they are divinely entitled or even commanded to do so, and I consider that a false belief. However, in that attitude, they follow roughly the same behaviour pattern as Christians, albeit to a somewhat more extreme degree. Christian militancy and fundamentalism does exist in America; but we need to remember that the nature of Jesus Christ himself, is and was diametrically opposed to that of 98% of so-called Christians.
Islam is a religion which is defiled by many of its' followers. There is much positive material there; but for the most part, you won't see it by observing Muslims. The faith itself can be good; it is some of the people who are not.
edit on 28-6-2012 by petrus4 because: (no
reason given)
reply posted on 28-6-2012 @ 06:10 PM by shaluach
Originally posted by petrus4
However, the reason why they would do that, is because they would falsely associate themselves as individuals, with Islam as the overall religion. I have reached a point, where I do not blame Islam as an overall religion, for the behaviour of its' individual followers.
Well you can't blame the religion since it's inanimate. It's a thing, not a person. But you could blame the founder of Islam for the things he claims that his god said in the Quran. Let's not pretend that the Quran doesn't have passages encouraging violence against non-believers.
You can find a whole list here
I was going to post some but then I realized there are far more than I realized. Sorry but the extremist Muslims are only doing what their leader commanded centuries ago. So while you cannot blame Islam, you can blame the founder of Islam.
reply posted on 28-6-2012 @ 07:27 PM by shaluach
reply to post by phantomjack
Who is flaming? And yes there are good Muslims and people are responsible for their own actions. But for Muslims to commit these atrocities they don't have to interpret all that hard. It doesn't take much to twist the verses of the Quran that encourage violence.
Who is flaming? And yes there are good Muslims and people are responsible for their own actions. But for Muslims to commit these atrocities they don't have to interpret all that hard. It doesn't take much to twist the verses of the Quran that encourage violence.
reply posted on 28-6-2012 @ 10:30 PM by Americanist
reply to post by petrus4
Opinions are one thing, but perhaps the Qu'ran is poorly translated into English. I stopped reading after the 3rd or 4th time I noticed: Obey, Serve, and Do Not Annoy God (of course the Messenger too). So let me ask this... If I make for a better messenger, may I ask you to stop writing this crap?
Seriously, it's getting on my nerves!
What Mohammed meant (and he also clarifies this in the Qu'ran as well) is that God can be worshipped by different people in different ethnic groups throughout the world, there will still be found persistent or universal characteristics of the divine attitude; and those characteristics are, as well as moral restraint, love, compassion, humanism, and a desire for justice.
Opinions are one thing, but perhaps the Qu'ran is poorly translated into English. I stopped reading after the 3rd or 4th time I noticed: Obey, Serve, and Do Not Annoy God (of course the Messenger too). So let me ask this... If I make for a better messenger, may I ask you to stop writing this crap?
Seriously, it's getting on my nerves!
edit on 28-6-2012 by Americanist because: (no reason given)
reply posted on 28-6-2012 @ 10:41 PM by Americanist
reply to post by phantomjack
People preach hate from the Bible constantly... Look no further than the Westboro Baptist Church. Fortunately, they're not lying about claims of adultery before stoning their wives, capping their two young daughters in the back seat of a taxi, poisoning grade school girls for attempting to learn, or hanging gays out to dry... By the neck no less.
Another facet of religion corrupting followers at the core.
People preach hate from the Bible constantly... Look no further than the Westboro Baptist Church. Fortunately, they're not lying about claims of adultery before stoning their wives, capping their two young daughters in the back seat of a taxi, poisoning grade school girls for attempting to learn, or hanging gays out to dry... By the neck no less.
Another facet of religion corrupting followers at the core.
edit on 28-6-2012 by Americanist because: (no reason given)
reply posted on 28-6-2012 @ 10:45 PM by petrus4
Originally posted by Americanist
reply to post by petrus4
Opinions are one thing, but perhaps the Qu'ran is poorly translated into English. I stopped reading after the 3rd or 4th time I noticed: Obey, Serve, and Do Not Annoy God (of course the Messenger too). So let me ask this... If I make for a better messenger, may I ask you to stop writing this crap?
LOL. Seriously, this is funny. Given the degree of hostility I've experienced here before, when I've objected to people expressing opinions which bothered me, why would I stop expressing opinions which someone else might object to, myself?
Americans just want to engage in lazy, polarised thinking, where Islam is concerned; and my interference with your desire to do that, is what you're really objecting to. I've already said that I'm aware that close to 50% of them genuinely do behave like Borg drones, but that still doesn't mean that all of them do; and it also doesn't mean that I consider either side justified in its' desire to largely (if not completely) exterminate the other.
Your desire to be single minded about them, isn't morally any better than their desire to be the same way about you.
edit on 28-6-2012 by
petrus4 because: (no reason given)
reply posted on 28-6-2012 @ 11:02 PM by Americanist
reply to post by petrus4
Hardly, it was pure facetiousness. Now I am able to launch into a debate over observation. If you're part of a community where half the residents hook up with farm animals, would you follow suit, or search on your own to find more suitable and stable conduct?
Your desire to be single minded about them, isn't morally any better than their desire to be the same way about you.
Hardly, it was pure facetiousness. Now I am able to launch into a debate over observation. If you're part of a community where half the residents hook up with farm animals, would you follow suit, or search on your own to find more suitable and stable conduct?
edit on 28-6-2012 by Americanist
because: (no reason given)
reply posted on 28-6-2012 @ 11:04 PM by petrus4
Originally posted by Americanist
reply to post by petrus4
Hardly, it was pure facetiousness. Now I am able to launch into a debate over observation. If you're part of a community where half the residents hook up with farm animals, would you follow suit, or search on your own to find more suitable and stable conduct?edit on 28-6-2012 by Americanist because: (no reason given)
I'm celibate.
reply posted on 28-6-2012 @ 11:06 PM by Americanist
reply to post by petrus4
Offering your recommendation to a sibling then...
Lose - Lose Situation
Offering your recommendation to a sibling then...
Lose - Lose Situation
edit on 28-6-2012 by Americanist because: (no
reason given)
reply posted on 28-6-2012 @ 11:27 PM by Americanist
reply to post by petrus4
Was that draw the line or end the line? Either way, we're still friends I hope...
Was that draw the line or end the line? Either way, we're still friends I hope...
reply posted on 29-6-2012 @ 12:47 AM by SplitInfinity
reply to post by petrus4
Well...THAT explains alot! Sorry...Bad Joke. Anywho....the Wests ridiculous fears that include anything Muslim are based on how what Extremist Muslim Groups do and if this is talked about on certain News Cable Channels...is taken from a viewpoint that MUSLIM....BAD....CHRISTIAN....GOOD!
People of any Religion have Extremist Groups....the Muslim Fears are generated by how certain Muslim Extremist Groups have used the U.S. Commercial Corps. outline of planning of contingency plans on how to deal with something like how Airplane Employees are told to handle a Hijacking...thus we got...9/11...which will NEVER BE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN AGAIN...as these Extremists would find a Very different reaction from U.S. passengers.
The Reality is that Tens of Thousands of people die in the U.S. everyday from things as innocent as slipping in the bath tub. The Iraq and Afghanistan WARS had a very small U.S. Military KIA list. And we have to remember that serving in the U.S. Armed Forces is a CHOICE and only the very best are allowed to even join as even a High School Diploma with Good Grades is not enough to be guaranteed a spot in some of the Services...they are looking for Youths with an Associates Degree due to the High Tech Nature of operating U.S. Weapon Systems.
So remember...those that joined VOLUNTEERED and the Carrier Lists that are possible of a Former Soldier, Sailor, Airman, Aviator and especially those who repair and keep operational many of these High Tech U.S. Weapon Systems are not only LONG but are High Pay oriented.
So again...Muslim Extremists have shown their ability to fool us as we were unprepared...but this will have a low probability of repeating itself. As far as what a person thinks of the Wars...ONE THING IS CERTAIN...Middle Eastern Countries that supported Extremist Muslim Groups have decided it is not worth it and are well aware that the United States is not a Country that they would want on an Attack List of any Groups that they would provide MONEY to Build more Madrassas. Split Infinity
Well...THAT explains alot! Sorry...Bad Joke. Anywho....the Wests ridiculous fears that include anything Muslim are based on how what Extremist Muslim Groups do and if this is talked about on certain News Cable Channels...is taken from a viewpoint that MUSLIM....BAD....CHRISTIAN....GOOD!
People of any Religion have Extremist Groups....the Muslim Fears are generated by how certain Muslim Extremist Groups have used the U.S. Commercial Corps. outline of planning of contingency plans on how to deal with something like how Airplane Employees are told to handle a Hijacking...thus we got...9/11...which will NEVER BE ALLOWED TO HAPPEN AGAIN...as these Extremists would find a Very different reaction from U.S. passengers.
The Reality is that Tens of Thousands of people die in the U.S. everyday from things as innocent as slipping in the bath tub. The Iraq and Afghanistan WARS had a very small U.S. Military KIA list. And we have to remember that serving in the U.S. Armed Forces is a CHOICE and only the very best are allowed to even join as even a High School Diploma with Good Grades is not enough to be guaranteed a spot in some of the Services...they are looking for Youths with an Associates Degree due to the High Tech Nature of operating U.S. Weapon Systems.
So remember...those that joined VOLUNTEERED and the Carrier Lists that are possible of a Former Soldier, Sailor, Airman, Aviator and especially those who repair and keep operational many of these High Tech U.S. Weapon Systems are not only LONG but are High Pay oriented.
So again...Muslim Extremists have shown their ability to fool us as we were unprepared...but this will have a low probability of repeating itself. As far as what a person thinks of the Wars...ONE THING IS CERTAIN...Middle Eastern Countries that supported Extremist Muslim Groups have decided it is not worth it and are well aware that the United States is not a Country that they would want on an Attack List of any Groups that they would provide MONEY to Build more Madrassas. Split Infinity
reply posted on 29-6-2012 @ 02:28 AM by ToneDeaf
________________________
Bee stings killed as many in UK as terrorists, says watchdog
www.telegraph.co.uk...
_____________________
Bee stings killed as many in UK as terrorists, says watchdog
www.telegraph.co.uk...
terror “exaggerated for political or commercial purposes”
_____________________
edit on 29/6/12 by ToneDeaf because: (no reason given)
reply posted on 29-6-2012 @ 06:36 AM by redneck13
Crime
Thousands of honour attacks in Britain last year
www.telegraph.co.uk...
Thousands of honour attacks in Britain last year
www.telegraph.co.uk...
Nearly 3,000 so-called honour attacks were recorded by police in Britain last year, according to new research that attempts to provide the most complete picture of the problem to date.
Muslim group, Ansar al-Sunna, demand breakaway Islamic nation in Norway or another 9/11 threatened
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