Jesus Vs. OT God (The imposter), page 3

reply to post by Akragon

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How can you launch a debate from a platform that has it's basis in the dogma of Jesus not being God and not expect people to debate the root belief?

It would be like me throwing out "Salvation: Grace vs. Works" and not allowing debate on whether Paul's doctrines are valid or not.

I am not trying to be argumentative but you should allow for free and open debate that encompasses the whole subject. That is fair.

reply to post by micmerci

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Interesting you say that...

My Grace Vs. Works thread

This is the issue... The "dogma" is actually that Jesus was God... Pure Christian Dogma, which has no scriptural backing aside from a few cherry picked verses from different books.

The reason i don't want that in this discussion is because almost every religious debate turns into a "Jesus was God" debate... there is litterally hundreds of threads that turn into this same arguement... which eventually turn into name calling... and the end of the thread or even it being closed.

IF you make Jesus God... Then the verse that says "God does not change" is invalid...

Jesus does not contradict himself.... his words are flawless aside from a few minor discrepencies... but the lessons he gives are completely flawless...

The OT God is Nothing like Jesus... the OT God contradicts Jesus...

And Jesus set laws that go against the OT Gods laws... Now you can take that stance like another poster and try to say that Revenge and forgiveness are both right... but anyone who has an ounce of logic can clearly see that is just wrong...

And again it can be clearly shown that Jesus not only prayed to his Father not himself... but he states that he also has a God...

This thread was made to show the dramatic difference between the two...

They are not the same.....

reply to post by Akragon

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I was only trying to point out that if something is up for debate then the parameters of the discussion should be all encompassing and not restrictive of a certain aspect. I only mentioned the grace vs. Works thing to draw a parallel not to open up another debate. I will just say that it is not as black and white as you portray it to be. There are foundational beliefs based on scripture that lead most Christians to the belief that Jesus is God. It is not something that can be discounted so flippantly. While your beliefs are being respected, you are quite casually disrespecting the beliefs of others by telling them they are worshipping a false God. Respect would lead with,"it is my belief..."

But I digress, I am in total agreement with you on how these threads typically devolve into bashing and name calling. It is sad actually. People need to learn that this world is big enough to have room for all kinds of views and beliefs. Just live and let live. Peace.

reply to post by micmerci

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I was only trying to point out that if something is up for debate then the parameters of the discussion should be all encompassing and not restrictive of a certain aspect.

The innital premise of this thread is about what Jesus (a man) said compared to what the OT God said...

In saying that Jesus and God are one and the same, they are also saying there is no debate, so a mod might as well close this thread... Now im sure there are Christians reading this that would love nothing more... but the fact is it can be clearly shown that Jesus was not God by his own words... They rely on the words of others to make their arguement

Also in saying he was God, it opens up an entirely different debate... IF they are one and the same why would HE contradict himself?

I will just say that it is not as black and white as you portray it to be. There are foundational beliefs based on scripture that lead most Christians to the belief that Jesus is God.

IF it wasn't for organized religion and the foundations of beliefs from millenia ago... and the corruption within said organization... no one would believe Jesus was God. The church litterally destroyed any other beliefs about Jesus and made him their God... Anyone who dared to question the early "Fathers" of the church were labeled heretics and executed... The church even went so far as to almost completely eradicate the gnostics or anyone with the slightest hint of Gnostic influence... Even some of the highest ranking members of the church were labeled and executed for anything that swayed outside of the traditional belief systems which were already corrupt...

in looking at the oldest known scriptures about him (the synoptics) it is obvious Jesus did not teach that he was God... but he did call himself "Gods son"...

Have you ever wondered why Jesus had thousands of followers when he was alive... Crowds of people followed him where ever he went... yet for some strange reason ONLY 3 people (perhaps 4 if you count thomas) wrote anything about him around the time he lived?

I would bet the reason for this is the corruption in the church... Anything writen about him that did not conform to their beliefs was destroyed... Its also possible that many documents are hidden from the public for whatever reason... the Vatican library has Tons of stuff that has never been released... and im sure there are documents in various temples all over the world that are hidden from the public for fear of what might happen if the church got a hold of them.

Luke was a follower of Paul... So the information he had about Jesus was from another source not from being a direct witness but it conforms with Matthew and Mark in many passages... This is the start of the discussion of the Q document... which is not the topic at hand.

And john was a direct witness of his life...

Thomas on the other hand is questionable... the dating of the Thomas gospel is up for debate... Some place it earlier then the synoptics and others say its a 2nd to 4th century work... I believe it was an oral tradition passed down through several generations from a direct follower of Jesus... but that is a different discussion.

It is not something that can be discounted so flippantly.

Do you honestly believe i write these things "flippantly"? I've explored all aspects of christianity extensively... That is one of the reasons i am not "Christian" Yet i know "their saviour" better then most...

While your beliefs are being respected, you are quite casually disrespecting the beliefs of others by telling them they are worshipping a false God. Respect would lead with,"it is my belief..."

While you are actually respecting me... and i do appreciate that... others have not been as "respectful"... and these are not just beliefs...

There is a difference between believing and knowing... I know what i know... but no one is saying you or anyone else has to believe or even listen to what i say... One of the first lines in my OP is... "take it as you will"

IF what i say happens to strike a cord in some... perhaps even making them question their beliefs... so be it.

But I digress, I am in total agreement with you on how these threads typically devolve into bashing and name calling. It is sad actually. People need to learn that this world is big enough to have room for all kinds of views and beliefs. Just live and let live. Peace.

Very true... and a star for your thoughts...

Unfortunatly it seems the moderators agree with you, so im just going to have to deal with the "Jesus was God" debate to keep this thread alive...

as usual this same debate takes over the topic of the thread...

reply to post by micmerci

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you are quite casually disrespecting the beliefs of others by telling them they are worshipping a false God.

So be it! Are Christians the only ones who are allowed to proclaim this?

I can feel Akragon's frustration. The topic is about comparing Jesus' teaching to what the OT god said and commanded. The Jesus Cultists' rush in to derail any discussion that might illuminate the subject at hand, with this wild claim, spouting irrelevant scripture. They have no words or arguments of their own.

Honestly, I grew up in a fundamentalist home and attended a Pentecostal, Assembly of God church who's pastor's name was Brother Bibler, I kid you not! My aunt was a nun and my sister belongs to a Church of the Sojourner commune. Still, never, never, never, before being educated here on ATS, have I ever heard the doctrine that Jesus was the God of the OT!

But if these Jesus Freak cultists want to believe that Jesus and OT Jehovah are one in the same and preach it, they are only driving more potential Christians away. Because, Jesus appeals to those who reject the OT god.

So, we have a inept god who created the garden and man, but ticked of his own angels off so much that 1/3 of them rebelled. Then he leaves the most rebellious one in charge, while he goes off, leaving this angel unchecked to sabotage his creation by encouraging them to eat the very fruit he created and placed in the center of the garden, but told man not to eat.

Realizing what has happened he curses his creation. Then he goes and kills off all their offspring, save Noah and family, with a flood.

He asked for human sacrifice, from Abraham, then says "Not really!" Then he proceeds to bombs some cities.

He has Moses lead a group of Hebrews to wander the desert for 40 years commanding them to kill, rape, enslave and steal from other communities. He has them cut off their foreskins, to show their devotion, and then has them trick, coerce or forcibly cut off everybody else's foreskins that they can.

He does a whole bunch of other horrendous things, then goes to "anger management" and incarnates as Jesus.

He proceeds to break his own Mosaic laws, then, after 33 or so years, he commits suicide by angry mob and sacrifices himself to himself, praying to himself the whole time. All this to save us from his judgement?

No thanks. I'll take my chances and with the other side of the argument. Jesus taught of the "One True God" and that the god of the OT is a false god.

Anyone who believes that Jesus and the OT god are one and the same are worshiping a FALSE god!

reply to post by windword

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Honestly... if one is to worship a man... there would be none better then HE to worship. I can totally understand why they call him God...

And i admit, IF he had said "i am God" i would also believe it. I've studied his words for years... the man did not lie, and his lessons are flawless...

This is why i know HE was not the entity as the OT God...

Jesus did not make mistakes in his ministry... (perhaps in his youth he did... read the infancy gospels)

The OT is full of mistakes and contradictions... and so is much of the NT...

The differences between the jealous, envious, wrathful God of the OT, and the Son of the true God are astounding...

He said "i and my Father are one"... meaning one mind... And if one compares the mind of the OT God, and the mind of Jesus...

They can not possibly be the same

reply to post by Akragon

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And i admit, IF he had said "i am God" i would also believe it. I've studied his words for years... the man did not lie, and his lessons are flawless...

If Jesus claimed to be God, and still taught what he did, including what is written of his teachings in the Gnostic texts, I would also agree. But even so, I would never confuse him with the deity of the OT, and never believe the OT deity IS a god.

Even "off world, Vulcan Spock," would make a better god than the guy from the OT!

reply to post by RealSpoke

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Thanks for the reply brother...

Im glad you see the difference

Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by micmerci

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In regards to the passage in Genesis in which the God of the OT does not know where Adam was- Do you think perhaps God asked the question for Adam's benefit. Much like a father would gently question his young child when he KNEW that the child did something wrong?

This is a good question. As Father does things not mainly for him, but for the receiver as well. I can't quote examples, because we don't have Father speaking in the NT, posing questions, only the son.

But, when Jesus cried out when he was dying, why have your forsaken me. Father gave him the answer as a question, not a direct answer.

edit on 26-6-2012 by jhill76 because: (no reason given)

Makes sense. Matthew 9:4 But Jesus, knowing what they were thinking, replied, "Why do you have such evil thoughts in your hearts?
Jesus didn't say, "You have such evil thoughts in your hearts." There is a difference. Jesus was filled with the spirit without measure, He said that that when the Holy Spirit comes, He will teach you ALL things and remind you of EVERYTHING He has spoken, He won't speak on His own behalf, but speak what He hears. So if Jesus was taught ALL things, being filled with the Holy Spirit without measure, why would he, knowing their thoughts, ask such a question? He wanted them to question themselves, He wanted people to wonder why they say and do what they say and do.
It's somewhat like Psalm 4:4 Be angry, and do not sin; ponder in your own hearts on your beds, and be silent. Selah
It's important for us to think about why we do what we do because there IS such a thing as "mind control", although it is not as corny as it sounds, it's subliminal persuasion plain and simple.
I myself have said and done things and wondered why I did them. I think about what's going on. For instance, when the pastor's wife noticed that I wasn't feeling too great, she came up and gently touched my shoulder and said, "Fairest among thousands." And when I noticed my sister feeling down, I did the same thing to her, I didn't make the connection until later but that's how God works, "GUIDES into all truth", not "Gives truth in lump sum." When we are believers, we are not automatically all knowing, but it's foolish to deny the words of Jesus and say "we'll never know", because I can give scriptures that would snuff out that deception. Also during the end of church one SUNDAY, my sister said I was being slow and asked "Are you a turtle?" Guess what insane thought passed through my mind, I don't have the money to buy anything to drink. So what blurted out of my mouth was, "You bet your sweet ass I am." And I am a curious person who WONDERS a lot of things, so I looked up some things on the internet, did a bit of snooping and guess what, I learned a lot. It made sense now why I got a strange letter in the mail from "Turle International". It made sense why I overheard my Pastor speak of "The Order of the Trapezoid", before all this I didn't take what people said seriously, that was my own arrogance keeping me from God's teaching, God wants us to beware of the yeast of the pharisees, not to be ignorant of the pharisees but be aware. It makes sense that I've seen a turtle pin on the Pastor's wife and wondered what it meant, now I know, things CAN make sense if you wonder enough about them enough to do some research. It's likely I've got more to say, but I'll stop here for now to wait and see for responses.

reply to post by Wonders

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I didn't make the connection until later but that's how God works, "GUIDES into all truth", not "Gives truth in lump sum." When we are believers, we are not automatically all knowing, but it's foolish to deny the words of Jesus and say "we'll never know", because I can give scriptures that would snuff out that deception.

Just as you say this, even above has to go to these learning processes to learn, just a tad bit different than man.

reply to post by Akragon

I thought it to be a good idea to get off that thread ( which will be unnamed ) because it wasn't really started to be a discussion, but rather an ex cathedra pronouncement by the OP.

Now some explanation for my inexplicable reaction (condemnation) to reading the Gospel of Mark:

As JMDewey pointed out, there was a flaw in the experiment. The actual flaw being that I was fully aware of other sayings of Jesus in other places in the synoptics ( my mind and emotions are a non sterile laboratory ). While reading in Mark about the early ministry of Jesus, and how the people of Galilee province received his teaching with joy (3:7,8); in my mind was the sayings of woe from Luke 10: "woe to you ... " about the very same people. What? What happened?

Now here is my theory: The death of John the Baptist, who Jesus had very high regard for. Elijah, if you will. The only Elijah who would come before the end (whatever that may be). Take the rather sterile saying on divorce and marriage to another.

Mark 10: 11 He said to them, "“Whoever divorces his wife, and marries another, commits adultery against her. 12 If a woman herself divorces her husband, and marries another, she commits adultery.”"

Taken in its historical and political context, this saying is anything but sterile. Jesus already pretty much put Moses in his place, compromiser to the hardness of heart. John had been beheaded for saying it wasn't lawful for Herod Antipas to marry his brother's wife. Herod Antipas had been married to Phasaelis, the daughter of King Aretas IV of Nabatea. She was a border treaty wife, seal or guarantor of the border between Perea and Nabatea. So this simple family matter of divorce by Antipas so he he could marry his niece was a matter of war.

Did Jesus fall into great depression when he saw his flock go off to prepare for war? Family member against family member, some fighting for Galilee and Perea just because they were subjects of Antipas, and others against because Nabatea and John the Baptist had been wronged?

Did his depression morph into a suicidal resignation? That's when he started telling his disciples that they were on their way to Jerusalem, where he would get killed. He quoted Zechariah 13:7 later to back up his claim of all his disciples falling away, Mark 7:27. What was Jesus doing? It seemed obvious to me that he was conceding the field to the OT god who punishes his servants for being his servants, and taught his disciples to do likewise, "take up your cross and follow me."

During that time, Jesus was pushing people away, ( that's the source of condemnation feelings ). I'm not willing to concede the field to the god who desired the death of Jesus. That's not my God.

The world has left no place for Marcionism. It was brutally crushed. If it had not been crushed, but allowed to survive into the modern era, the neo-Marcionites would have dropped the idea that the OT god was creator, and realized that his claim of being the creator was a big fat lie. But no, that option for a neo-Marcionism has been completely removed from the table. Please allow me to leave the table also. (Whoops! Have I just conceded the field?).

reply to post by pthena

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Thank you for your reply my friend, I didn't think i'd see this thread back on the boards but it is the appropriate place for it...

As JMDewey pointed out, there was a flaw in the experiment. The actual flaw being that I was fully aware of other sayings of Jesus in other places in the synoptics ( my mind and emotions are a non sterile laboratory ). While reading in Mark about the early ministry of Jesus, and how the people of Galilee province received his teaching with joy (3:7,8) in my mind was the sayings of woe from Luke 10: "woe to you ... " about the very same people. What? What happened?

You don't believe there were different tribes in the very same province? How do you know the one hes speaking of are the "very same" people?

Now here is my theory: The death of John the Baptist, who Jesus had very high regard for. Elijah, if you will. The only Elijah who would come before the end (whatever that may be). Take the rather sterile saying on divorce and marriage to another.

Mark 10: 11 He said to them, "“Whoever divorces his wife, and marries another, commits adultery against her. 12 If a woman herself divorces her husband, and marries another, she commits adultery.”"

Taken in its historical and political context, this saying is anything but sterile. Jesus already pretty much put Moses in his place, compromiser to the hardness of heart. John had been beheaded for saying it wasn't lawful for Herod Antipas to marry his brother's wife. Herod Antipas had been married to Phasaelis, the daughter of King Aretas IV of Nabatea. She was a border treaty wife, seal or guarantor of the border between Perea and Nabatea. So this simple family matter of divorce by Antipas so he he could marry his niece was a matter of war.

Do you believe all marriages are "ordained" by God so to speak?

My personal belief is that 95% if not 99% of marriages are a union joined by "law", not by God... though Christians also believe their churches are the "house of God"... Thus any union performed under said roof is of God...

I tend to want to believe those that are joined "by God" can not be torn asunder... they are one flesh, as he said. Though i also believe this is an extremely rare event. Two people that litterally can not live or breath without the other...

Did Jesus fall into great depression when he saw his flock go off to prepare for war? Family member against family member, some fighting for Galilee and Perea just because they were subjects of Antipas, and others against because Nabatea and John the Baptist had been wronged?

I would say no... remember?

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

Did his depression morph into a suicidal resignation? That's when he started telling his disciples that they were on their way to Jerusalem, where he would get killed. He quoted Zechariah 13:7 later to back up his claim of all his disciples falling away, Mark 7:27. What was Jesus doing?

I don't really get depression from his words... that seems to be a recent "medical" term... There was definatly sadness in him... but try to imagine knowing the absolute correct path of God, and trying to verbalize it so others could understand it... and yet few people actually "get it"... that would cause sadness wouldn't you say?

As far as the passage from Zechariah, i don't see much similarity between that and what he said honestly...

7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

Perhaps you are simply reading into these verses a bit... you did say your Christian background tends to give a bias...

Is it because it uses the words sheep and shepard?

That entire chapter is supposed to be a prophesy, though to me this seems indicative of the OT God and his destruction and Wrath bable you'll find through out the OT..

One thing i've never understood is how Christians connect entirely different books like that... i suppose its because they believe the bible is "Gods word" and "one book"...

It seemed obvious to me that he was conceding the field to the OT god who punishes his servants for being his servants, and taught his disciples to do likewise, "take up your cross and follow me."

Really? I don't see any similarities between the two... Which is one of the reasons i made this and many other threads on the issue.... What is the issue with "take up your cross"?

During that time, Jesus was pushing people away, ( that's the source of condemnation feelings ). I'm not willing to concede the field to the god who desired the death of Jesus. That's not my God.

Im sorry but im not seeing this either... His words are not for everyone... He did say his "sheep" know his voice...

I don't see "God" wanting the death of his son either, only that it was going to happen... IF we have free will, then those that executed him did so of their own free will... They didn't understand who he was... And by Jewish laws any association with yourself being "of God" is blasphemy... So even if he called himself the SON of God, he still broke their laws...

The world has left no place for Marcionism. It was brutally crushed. If it had not been crushed, but allowed to survive into the modern era, the neo-Marcionites would have dropped the idea that the OT god was creator, and realized that his claim of being the creator was a big fat lie. But no, that option for a neo-Marcionism has been completely removed from the table. Please allow me to leave the table also. (Whoops! Have I just conceded the field?).

I agree with that... but please don't leave the table until the meal is finished my friend...

And theres always desert...

reply to post by Akragon

How do you know the one hes speaking of are the "very same" people?

I don't knoooow,. It was a feelings experiment, after all.

Do you believe all marriages are "ordained" by God so to speak?

No. I believe marriage is a community matter, as in common law, "they are married, who present themselves to the community as married." Besides that, there is a legal establishment as "next of kin" which is assumed "general power of attorney", to make decisions regarding health and property for one another. That is one-ness.

If partners find themselves unable, for some reason or another, to fulfill this, divorce is appropriate. This does happen, even when there is no prior intent. People change.

Kings don't get to divorce "treaty wives", the gods are very much involved in that case. That's just plain wickedness.(see Tutelary deity) The whole Galilean/Perean militia got crushed as a result of Antipas' divorce.

Perhaps you are simply reading into these verses a bit... you did say your Christian background tends to give a bias...

Serious problem. windword can testify to that.

Is it because it uses the words sheep and shepard?

You believe, and I believe, that OT YHWH is not a just or merciful character. Why did Jesus play to his script? "7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I (YHWH) will turn mine hand upon the little ones. "

I can't remember if you ever said whether you were spared from a Christian upbringing or not. It is extremely difficult (perhaps impossible for some) to break free from the idea that the Old Testament is a good book. There may need to be support groups dedicated to such a task.

To a recovering Christian, it can only seem that Jesus decided to suicidally dance to the devil's tune, then tell his followers to do the same! That's what picking up the cross means to recovering Christians.

Allow me to direct you to windword's rant, The Problem With God. I feel like taking a break for now.

Actually, I should add: I have no intention of going to Jerusalem, ever. If someone says, "Hey look! The Holy City!" I will not go. Even if I'm raised from the dead and someone says, "Look! The Holy City!" I will not go.

reply to post by pthena

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I don't knoooow,. It was a feelings experiment, after all.

You said this "experiment" was flawed... Im not following...

No. I believe marriage is a community matter, as in common law, "they are married, who present themselves to the community as married." Besides that, there is a legal establishment as "next of kin" which is assumed "general power of attorney", to make decisions regarding health and property for one another. That is one-ness.

If partners find themselves unable, for some reason or another, to fulfill this, divorce is appropriate. This does happen, even when there is no prior intent. People change.

I agree completely...

You believe, and I believe, that OT YHWH is not a just or merciful character. Why did Jesus play to his script?

Well you have to play within the rules of what you're taught i suppose...

He played to mans script... and honestly, he didn't use the OT much as opposed to what you'll hear...

Heres a decent list...

www.jewsforjesus.org...

This actually reminds me of a passage in John though... Pardon the length

8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

"7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I (YHWH) will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

You're going to have to direct me to where HE quoted this... He never uses YHWH... only in certain translations, not in the KJV

I can't remember if you ever said whether you were spared from a Christian upbringing or not. It is extremely difficult (perhaps impossible for some) to break free from the idea that the Old Testament is a good book. There may need to be support groups dedicated to such a task.

To a recovering Christian, it can only seem that Jesus decided to suicidally dance to the devil's tune, then tell his followers to do the same! That's what picking up the cross means to recovering Christians.

Can't say i was ever a "recovering" christian... I was born into it, and sat through endless sessions at church for years... but i had no real belief in God... And just thought church and the bible to be pointless garbage... I only found God after i went looking for him...

Allow me to direct you to windword's rant, The Problem With God. I feel like taking a break for now.

You'll notice i was the first reply... with this thread

Actually, I should add: I have no intention of going to Jerusalem, ever. If someone says, "Hey look! The Holy City!" I will not go. Even if I'm raised from the dead and someone says, "Look! The Holy City!" I will not go.

haha... why would you though?

reply to post by Akragon

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You're going to have to direct me to where HE quoted this... He never uses YHWH... only in certain translations, not in the KJV

Here is a book I recommend everyone own a copy of, Commentary on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament , G. Beale (editor), by far the reference book I use the most.
The quote that Pthena is apparently referring to is Mark 14:27. There is also the parallel verse in Matthew 26:31.
The old testament verse generally believed to be what Jesus is quoting from is Zechariah 13:7.
The book I cited above goes into a fairly comprehensive discussion on the subject, including other possibilities such as an example from the Qumran scroll on the Teacher of Righteousness, which to me sounds like an expanded version of the Zechariah verse. What seems to be consistent is the application of the verse (which according to David L. Petersen is a separate poem contained in the three verses Zechariah 13: 7-9, inserted between to main oracles) by different people in ancient times to apply to whoever they want to describe, be it a king or messiah or prophet. Jesus seems to be following the custom (of finding applications for that poem) and using it to apply to himself, in Mark and Matthew.
I don't see it as so much Jesus trying to fulfill specifically a prophecy but his taking a description of something that is probably a saying that dates back to before Zechariah which is a general principle of how things work in relation to Israel and its god, which is calamity happens by The Lord's permission, the status quo is ended and then there is a return to looking to The Lord. I don't personally see Jesus' use of that poetic imagery as being any deeper than just that, a convenient way to put a mental picture before his listeners by mentioning several key words in a specific succession to each other (presupposing that they are already very familiar with that particular passage).

Yarbro Collins takes the approach from the point of view of the author, rather than that of the subject himself, by speaking of the insertion of the citation as having a literary effect of adding pathos and irony.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Even though I've not been a professing or practicing Christian for 20 years ( if the brief experiment of 2003 is not counted ), I still don't feel like I've got enough distance emotionally to discuss Jesus subjects quite rationally. People like windword and Akragon may just have the advantage. They didn't spend 20 years before that as active participants, students, teachers, and/or preachers of Christianity, such as I did. A more distant view (closer to atheist) may be a clearer view.

After William Hamilton died, not too long ago, I was going to do a tribute thread about him, but got side tracked into the whole Jewish/Christian dialogue issue, then got too depressed to work on Hamilton. But now, here's a bit of Hamilton from a 1989 article:

It does relate to what you brought up on the other thread (still unnamed).

For Hamilton, the nature of Jesus’ self-understanding remains beyond our historical reach. It is not the historical Jesus but the Christ of the kerygma whom Hamilton affirms, the Jesus "bringing the Kingdom, the new age, here and now into the midst of ordinary lives" who shows us a "way to be human," who establishes a bond of comradeship, who draws us out of our private lives into the world, who provides us with a place to stand. "What he was is hidden; what he proclaimed, offered, defined, is not." Hamilton has repudiated God, not Jesus -- not the Christ of the kerygma.

In the detective mode, God is found dead, "dead in the souls of one’s contemporaries," as Camus said. But lately Hamilton has moved out of the detective approach and into the "killer" mode: "Now I am more interested in the murderer," he says. Here God is not dead at all, "but very much alive, murderous and needing to be killed. And ‘illustrated’ by your own choice of imams, generals, politicians, TV shills." In the killer mode, a body is not found, a death is required. As Hamilton has written in his latest book, Reading Moby Dick and Other Essays (Peter Lang, 1989) :

Today, the death of God experience in its second coming is less like Angela Lansbury finding an unexpected corpse on Sunday night in her kitchen and more like the murderer who put the corpse there in the first . . . . In its present form, the death of God experience suggests that the God of the great Western monotheistic faiths -- at least in the First and Second Worlds -- is too male, too dangerous, too violent to be allowed to live. Death of God today is not finding a body and figuring out who and why. It is the capture, understanding, and abolition of a dangerous 20th-century ideology.

"Obviously, because of what is going on in Christianity and Islam," Hamilton has concluded, "people with Gods are dangerous. And one of the things you can do to help your brothers and sisters is to take Gods away from people so their weapons won’t be quite so sharp as they are with monotheism."
The Dangerous God: A Profile of William Hamilton
by Lloyd Steffen

It seems that some people are waking up to the fact that OT Yahweh is a dangerous and yucky character. Another thread related to this one is For those of you who know Yahweh is evil... Why keep pray to his angels?. A couple of people have had close encounters with Yahweh and felt pretty bad(unclean) as a result.

reply to post by arpgme

I really do wish the best for Yahweh even after all he's done. Hopefully he realize he doesn't have to take energy/prayers from anyone because he IS light can can channel that power from within like us all.

Lucifer means "light bearer" if I am not mistaken. The mythology has it that the visible bearer(messenger) of the light spoke to people in the first person, as in "I Am telling you this ..." People started worshipping the messenger. The messenger believed the people's prayers. He went insane, thought he was the invisible God.

How can people help this character? Stop worshipping YHWH. Stop reading the book as if it were written by the invisible God. The YHWH character is chained by and in the book. He will not regain sanity until the book is gone. When will that be? "until heaven and earth disappear..."Matthew 5:18.

Any attempt to help him directly is futile ( in my experience and opinion ). The best that can be done is to encourage people not to be fundamentalists.

reply to post by pthena

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I think this happens to people today, they channel and then they turn crazy believing that they are the thing/one being channelled.

Yes, not giving your power away to him is a great way to help him remember,

There is a saying that says something like ... We remember the light when we are in darkness, stop feeding him your light and he'll be forced to remember his own.

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