Jesus Vs. OT God (The imposter)

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posted on Jun, 26 2012 @ 09:47 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 




Here's a clue, it wasn't the Father he's a spirit and can't be seen by us. That leaves only one other person


Are you saying it was Jesus? He wasn't in the flesh either at this time.




posted on Jun, 26 2012 @ 10:01 PM
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Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 




Here's a clue, it wasn't the Father he's a spirit and can't be seen by us. That leaves only one other person


Are you saying it was Jesus? He wasn't in the flesh either at this time.


Don't matter, still the one and the same. He pre-existed before his human state.

John 8:48-59

48 Then the Jews answered and said to Him, “Do we not say rightly that You are a Samaritan and have a demon?”

49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon; but I honor My Father, and you dishonor Me. 50 And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges. 51 Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.”

52 Then the Jews said to Him, “Now we know that You have a demon! Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and You say, ‘If anyone keeps My word he shall never taste death.’ 53 Are You greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do You make Yourself out to be?”

54 Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. 55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.”

57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

For someone who professes to know alot about some things you're terribly lacking in knowledge about the jews of 2000 years ago. You want to know why they kept trying to kill Yeshua? Because he kept claiming to be YHWH. The Sanhedrin put a ban on saying Yah's name in those days, just saying the name wasn't blasphemy you had to speak it flawlessly. Every jew knows that the one talking to Abraham before Sodom and Gomorrah knows that was YHWH.

John 10:31-33

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?”

33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

They didn't use the word God, they used the word Adonai in place of the tetragrammaton because of the ban on YHWH's name.



posted on Jun, 26 2012 @ 10:06 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 




Don't matter, still the one and the same. He pre-existed before his human state.


I know this, but you stated this:


Here's a clue, it wasn't the Father he's a spirit and can't be seen by us. That leaves only one other person


Your argument is that, since he couldn't see God, it must have been Jesus. But, Jesus was in spirit form at this time as well. Are you implying, that Jesus came into the physical during these times?



For someone who professes to know alot about some things you're terribly lacking in knowledge about the jews of 2000 years ago.


My reply has nothing to do with a group of people.
edit on 26-6-2012 by jhill76 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 26 2012 @ 10:19 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


Keep reading my friend...

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Son of God... Not God in the flesh...

Why does every discussion have to turn into a "Jesus was God" arguement...

:shk:



posted on Jun, 26 2012 @ 11:51 PM
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If Jesus were God, he would have said so himself.
Instead in all the verses where Jesus is speaking directly, Jesus never directly stated that he is God. Instead he makes it clear several times that he himself is a worshipper of God.

Christians ignore this fact.... then start compositing unrelated verses, read meanings into it and frame their doctrine that Jesus is God.



posted on Jun, 27 2012 @ 09:34 AM
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You know I've always wondered....

Why would God be a wimp? A wet noodle? Who'd let wickedness, evil and disease run rampant in the world? If we were created in the image of an all powerful being - shouldn't He take care of his creation?

I know that many people want to infer that the New somehow replaces the Old. However, whenever Jesus referred to God, he referenced the God of the OT. Parts of the NT don't even make sense unless the OT is present. The OT God - was the God Jesus prayed to. I mean, if you want to understand where Jesus is coming from, wouldn't you read what he read?

I understand the penchant people have for interpreting their own meanings - but I think many take the Old Testament way out of context. You know all of the people God was wrathful and angry with - were often times warned well in advance. Those families with children, women, and elderly - had plenty of time to get up and move away from the wickedness God was preparing to stamp out. Many were just kicked to the curb like Adam & Eve...which shows leniency, after all God did say he'd die if he ate the apple. I guess this big bad Daddy wolf changed his mind? The world was tainted, corrupted by evil, depravity, and hate. What's a Father to do?

The OT does describe a loving God also, but why would a being in charge of it all, not have the capacity to destroy? And know, if it's best for all, that they were destroyed...

Just wondering.

~ Serra
edit on 27-6-2012 by Serraphina because: word



posted on Jun, 27 2012 @ 11:21 AM
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reply to post by Serraphina
 




Why would God be a wimp? A wet noodle? Who'd let wickedness, evil and disease run rampant in the world? If we were created in the image of an all powerful being - shouldn't He take care of his creation?


Father has given man all the resources necessary to live, eat, and survive down here. It is up to man, what to do with it. Father also has restricted himself from doing many things, until the appointed time. This is why you don't see food falling from the sky, miracles everyday in the streets, angels appearing before all, etc. If Father did all of these things, how could man be properly tested?



posted on Jun, 27 2012 @ 05:33 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


Jesus was not God...


Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”



Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.



Isaiah 43:10,11 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”



Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.




1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.


Some scriptures from both the Old and New Testaments.


Whos correct here... Jesus or The OT God?

They both are. That what you don't get. One says "this is what the law says" - the other says "Love overpowers the law". Neither are wrong, both are right.


I didn't say "its wrong to be Jealous"... i said God has no reason to be Jealous... this is a human emotion... God is beyond such pettiness

Yet, we are made in God's image, in Genesis 1:26 -


Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."



This is not a "Jesus was God" discussion... take it elsewhere please... theres plenty of threads for that.

Actually, the whole thread is "off" because it is asking the wrong question, based off the assumption that Jesus ISN'T God. Once you realize He is, then your question, and discussion, is moot.


I didn't say they were the same thing...


Love does not Envy... It is NOT Jealous... This verse completely contradicts the OT God...

You used them interchangeably. Assuming a contradiction.
Nice attempt to go back on your words, though.


Yet Jesus says the only sin that will not be forgiven is "blasphemy"... And i have a thread comming up about that too... when im inspired to do so that is...
Right, blasphemy of the holy spirit, rejection of God.

Matthew 6:24 -

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.



posted on Jun, 27 2012 @ 07:09 PM
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reply to post by Lionhearte
 


They don't see it bro, he hasn't given them the revelation.



posted on Jun, 27 2012 @ 09:08 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


I my opinion, any god that demands to be worshiped, and orders the death penalty to those who can't measure up to his standards, any god who fools, tricks and lies to his creation, creates a hell to sadistic torture those who can't believe him, is NOT a god.

Any god that sends his son to be tortured and murdered by an ignorant and angry mod, calling for murder, and accepts his death as a ritual human blood sacrifice, to save those very murderers, is NOT a god.

Too bad we don't know what the original Torah read like, but Jesus didn't have much respect for what they were teaching of it. He healed the sick on the Sabbath, didn't change his clothes or wash up after being with the "unclean." He interfered with Mosaic law and sabotaged the stoning of an adulterer.

He told secrets to lowly peasants, practiced magic and necromancy, and even talked to demons! All big no-noes of the OT god.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 

reply to post by Lionhearte
 


If Jesus is God, then why did he pray to his God in the garden, to "Take this cup away from me."?

Seems even the apostles didn't think Jesus was god.



1 Corinthians 8:6
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

1 Corinthians 15:28
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Acts 3:13
The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus.”



posted on Jun, 28 2012 @ 03:12 AM
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reply to post by Lionhearte
 



Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”


Right... he was from God, and with us...


Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.


He was called many things by others...but what did he call himself?

Everlasting Father?

9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

.....

Here you underlined the wrong part... i'll help you...

Isaiah 43:10,11 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”




Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.


Paul...




Show me where Jesus said he is equal to his Father... Even one passage will be fine... but keep in mind being "one" with God does not mean equality...

I'll give you a hint...

John 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 13:16
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

John 15:20
Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.



1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory


Paul...



Whos correct here... Jesus or The OT God?

They both are. That what you don't get. One says "this is what the law says" - the other says "Love overpowers the law". Neither are wrong, both are right.


They can't both be right... One is love, one is revenge...

Jesus tells you to turn away from revenge... OT God says exact your revenge...

Logic fail...



Yet, we are made in God's image, in Genesis 1:26 -


Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."


I don't care what Genesis says honestly... OT God said... let us make man in OUR image...

Jesus said this...
Mark 12:29
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is ONE Lord:


Actually, the whole thread is "off" because it is asking the wrong question, based off the assumption that Jesus ISN'T God. Once you realize He is, then your question, and discussion, is moot.


Jesus didn't say he was God... the actual assumption is on your part, in saying that he did... And in saying he is God, you are in fact calling him a liar by omission...


You used them interchangeably. Assuming a contradiction.
Nice attempt to go back on your words, though.


No i didn't...

Read it again...



That was some pro style cherry picking my friend...

but you rely on what others said about him as opposed to what he actually said....

This is what HE said...

Mark 12:29
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

One God...

Not three in one... One and only...

John 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Not Jesus... but his Father is greater then he... Meaning they are NOT the same entity

And finally...

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God

Your God... HAS A GOD

Discussion... over

Now back to our regularly scheduled topic....


edit on 28-6-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 28 2012 @ 12:18 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


Matthew McConaughey said it best, in his role of "Steve" in "The Wedding Planner."


"What if what I think is great really is great, but not as great as something greater?"

-- Steve in "The Wedding Planner"



posted on Jun, 28 2012 @ 08:59 PM
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Originally posted by Lionhearte
reply to post by Akragon
 


Jesus was not God...



Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”



Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.



Isaiah 43:10,11 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”



Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.




1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.


Some scriptures from both the Old and New Testaments.


Whos correct here... Jesus or The OT God?

They both are. That what you don't get. One says "this is what the law says" - the other says "Love overpowers the law". Neither are wrong, both are right.


I didn't say "its wrong to be Jealous"... i said God has no reason to be Jealous... this is a human emotion... God is beyond such pettiness

Yet, we are made in God's image, in Genesis 1:26 -


Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."



This is not a "Jesus was God" discussion... take it elsewhere please... theres plenty of threads for that.

Actually, the whole thread is "off" because it is asking the wrong question, based off the assumption that Jesus ISN'T God. Once you realize He is, then your question, and discussion, is moot.


I didn't say they were the same thing...


Love does not Envy... It is NOT Jealous... This verse completely contradicts the OT God...

You used them interchangeably. Assuming a contradiction.
Nice attempt to go back on your words, though.


Yet Jesus says the only sin that will not be forgiven is "blasphemy"... And i have a thread comming up about that too... when im inspired to do so that is...
Right, blasphemy of the holy spirit, rejection of God.

Matthew 6:24 -

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.



posted on Jun, 28 2012 @ 10:55 PM
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How sad...

You have No rebutal so you copy and paste your entire previous reply... As if i said nothing

Epic fail...

Bravo...


I am requesting to have your posts removed... Your only posting to annoy me... And only proving yourself to be ignorant.... Especially considering i've asked numerous times for people to refrain from this line of discussion...

This is NOT a Jesus is God debate!


edit on 28-6-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 28 2012 @ 11:17 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 

God is Jealous? I think not... This Imposter is Jealous, envious and Wrathful...

Not qualities of the one true God... Lets see what some of the Authors of the NT have to say about God...

I don't think it is a god doing things described by the Old Testament, posing as the "real" God.
I think the OT just got it wrong.
Jesus came so we would understand the real God, and to reject the version promoted by the very people who killed Jesus.



posted on Jun, 28 2012 @ 11:28 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


The idea of this thread is to establish the fact that the true God had little to nothing to do with the OT...

The god(s) within the OT are nothing like the one Jesus discribes... There was a time when people making this claim were murdered for heresy... But the churches no longer have such power... Now the truth can be shown, without fear of persecution.

And i agree... They did get it wrong... But no need to tell me that...

I find it rather obvious




posted on Jun, 29 2012 @ 04:08 AM
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reply to post by Serraphina
 



You know I've always wondered....

Why would God be a wimp? A wet noodle? Who'd let wickedness, evil and disease run rampant in the world? If we were created in the image of an all powerful being - shouldn't He take care of his creation?


Wickedness and evil? Have you looked at the state of the world lately?

HE takes care of those that take care of others... You can even test that... That is also the reason for the state of our world as well...

Who cares about anyone but themselves in this age...


Karma is real...


I know that many people want to infer that the New somehow replaces the Old. However, whenever Jesus referred to God, he referenced the God of the OT. Parts of the NT don't even make sense unless the OT is present. The OT God - was the God Jesus prayed to. I mean, if you want to understand where Jesus is coming from, wouldn't you read what he read?


You might notice it says he taught the from the scriptures... Also corrected the scriptures... and hung the whole of the law on a few words... that which has always been...


I understand the penchant people have for interpreting their own meanings - but I think many take the Old Testament way out of context. You know all of the people God was wrathful and angry with - were often times warned well in advance. Those families with children, women, and elderly - had plenty of time to get up and move away from the wickedness God was preparing to stamp out. Many were just kicked to the curb like Adam & Eve...which shows leniency, after all God did say he'd die if he ate the apple. I guess this big bad Daddy wolf changed his mind? The world was tainted, corrupted by evil, depravity, and hate. What's a Father to do?



Heres an interesting story for you to consider...

Ezekiel 9
Then I heard Him call out in a loud voice, “Come near, you who punish the city, each with a destroying ax in his hand.” 2 And I saw six men coming from the upper gate on the north side. Each man had his battle-ax in his hand. Among them was a certain man dressed in linen, with things for writing at his side. And the men went in and stood by the brass altar.

3 Then the shining-greatness of the God of Israel went up from the cherub where it had been, to the door of the Lord’s house. And He called to the man dressed in linen with the things for writing at his side. 4 The Lord said to him, “Go through the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who cry inside themselves over all the hated sins which are being done among them.” 5 But to the others I heard Him say, “Go through the city after him, and destroy. Do not let your eye have pity. And do not let any sinner go without punishment. 6 Kill and destroy old men, young men, young women, little children, and women. But do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at My holy house.” So they started with the leaders who were in front of the Lord’s house. 7 He said to them, “Make the house of worship unclean and fill the open spaces with the dead. Go out!” So they went out and killed the people in the city. 8 As they were killing, I alone was left, and I fell on my face and cried out, “It is bad, O Lord God! Are You destroying all the people of Israel who are left, by pouring out Your anger on Jerusalem?”

9 Then He said to me, “The sin of the people of Israel and Judah is very, very bad. The land is filled with blood, and the city is full of wrong-doing. For they say, ‘The Lord has left the land, and the Lord does not see.’ 10 But as for Me, My eye will have no pity, and I will not leave any sinner without punishment. I will bring their wrong-doing upon their own heads.”

11 Then I saw the man dressed in linen, who had the things for writing at his side, come and say, “I have done just as You have told me.”



The OT does describe a loving God also, but why would a being in charge of it all, not have the capacity to destroy? And know, if it's best for all, that they were destroyed...


Of course but there is no need... everything is perfect, always was and always will be...

I know thats not easy to understand but its true... the law of cause and effect... even Karma works perfectly in Gods perfect system...






edit on 29-6-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 29 2012 @ 10:36 AM
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Isaiah 43:10-13

10 “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
11 I, even I, am the Lord,
And besides Me there is no savior.

12 I have declared and saved,
I have proclaimed,
And there was no foreign god among you;
Therefore you are My witnesses,”
Says the Lord, “that I am God.
13 Indeed before the day was, I am He;
And there is no one who can deliver out of My hand;
I work, and who will reverse it?”


Deuteronomy 6:4

4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one! 5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

His name, is YHWH Tsidkenu. Yeshua is Yahweh.
edit on 29-6-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 29 2012 @ 11:16 AM
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Most of this is the discussion of Yahweh Vs. Jesus' Father god is derived from the times of the Creator gods of Sumeria and the deal with Abraham from City of Ur.

Certainly, Jesus called his version of god as being the "Enki" or "Ea" theme, who was the breeder of humans akin to the Adam storu. Abraham's deal was with Enlil, the one that didn't like the Enki human breeding experiments being more advanced.

Both these beings on Earth were called gods, but should we even debate the issue of them being gods in the sense of today's knowledge? I think not, else one appears to be somewhat misleading in not acknowledging the source and reason for the term god applied to each.


Trying to claim Jesus god Vs. Abraham's god is a bit silly these days and is along the lines of calling the character "Spock", the off-world person from planet Vulcan, as god in the theme for the Movie and TV series called Star Trek. The Spock character seems to be modeled from the Annunaki theme blended with Tubal Cane, as the Sciences Expert. It is this extreme knowledge that cast these beings known to Jesus and Abraham as being called gods by those of primitive insight. Should anyone want to continue in the primitive mind or recast the issue into the knowledge that neither of these beings should be called gods in the present knowledge.

Thus, speaking in the old world sense of these being gods, in the present sense they were just intelligent beings that changed the plight of human evolution with breeding experiments with their DNA combined with early human beings on Earth.


I think it might be wise to consider if it is even reasonable to speak of these beings as being gods. In today's view it is better to refer to them in their correct names of these old times and the correct settings of them being off-world visitors just as everyone viewed the character Spock on Star Trek.


It makes the Jesus god theme moot, and also the whole issue of gods rendered moot as well.

It all makes much more rational sense in those terms, and then it avoids all the irrational issues that launch from playing the god theme from the primitive impressions and later faked up efforts to design Jesus into god also.



edit on 29-6-2012 by MagnumOpus because: Render the issues of god in the correct sense of the times and one finds the god game is moot.



posted on Jun, 29 2012 @ 01:52 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


look... im tired of arguing this issue... its obvious you people can't see that he was not God...

AND

That you can't read... As i've said FAR TOO MANY TIMES... THIS IS NOT A JESUS WAS GOD DEBATE!!!

Whatever though, believe what you want...

Jesus contradicts himself all over the place within your belief... On the other hand by simply reading what he said, there are no errors or contradictions...

And regardess your Jesus/Yahwah still has a God he prays to and worships...

It seems your belief is as flawed as your book...

so Good luck with that






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